TheDarkling wrote:See MOO theres yuo problem you say they should have sent all their ships to taker on Shinzon, I have exlpained why this is a bad idea but you disagree.
Because it is the proper course of action. What the hell do you think that the rest of the fleet should have been doing? Their ONLY chance to stop Skippy was to have him fight the E-E, and lose to it and the ships protecting it.
You opinion is SF should and did send its entire fleet mine isnt they shouldnt and probably didnt.
Demonstrate that your theory is correct. Where were the other ships? Why were they NEVER mentioned? What were they doing? What should they have been doing? All you're saying is that they should not have sent all their ships there, but you have not demonstrated a single reason why they should not have, or what those ships would be doing elsewhere.
Imagine if I were to say the fleet at Endor was all the ships the empire could muster in the months they had been planning the Endor "trap", is just plain stupid, they only needed the ships they sent and the rest of their ships were better used elsewhere.
False analogy. We know that there were far more ships at the Battle of Endor. Moreover, the Empire knew about the Rebel fleet strength, ahead of time, and was capable of making an intelligent assessment. SF had no clue what forces Skippy had, and had no idea who he was or what he wanted.
The UFP wasnt aware what was going on thus their patrol weren't enough? what are you arguing here, if they didnt know what was going on then whatever ships that were deployed (an unknown number) to deal with the situation were standard, I simply dont see your point here, I wasnt saying SF had increased its deployment in the area with months of forewarning so why is this a concession?
You said that the Neutral Zone is well patrolled, and that the fact the one planet was unexplored did nothing to disprove that notion (which was UTTERLY wrong). I demonstrated that the Romulans had entered UFP territory without the UFP knowing about it, demonstrating clearly that the NZ was not patrolled heavily enough to halt Romulan incursions. You further claim that Skippy had the Scimitar BEFORE his coup (with no proof, whatsoever, of course) and that this explains how B-4 was placed on the planet. This is not true. Had Skippy had the Scimitar before his coup, it would not have taken several months.
Whatever fleet assets deployed to the region were sent there during the time frame involved imn the movie - this proves nothing so I can't possibly understand whatt concession you are accepting but it isn't mine.
OMFG. You said that the NZ was well patrolled. I demonstrated that it was not well patrolled before the movie. I then demonstrated that there were only eight ships there, two days after the movie began. You have disproven neither. You have not even presented EVIDENCE of the existence of other ships, and ignore verbal evidence even though we have nothing else to go off of.
Oh I see the Romulan threat has stayed the same (if not increased) since TNG yet you think its been reduced and that SF has reduced border patrol and fleet deployment accordingly, prove it.
I already have. There were only eight ships there at the time of "Nemesis." This is inexplicable, given earlier observed fleet deployments, unless we believe that the UFP has relaxed considerably since "End Game." This is a completely logical course of action, given that they have no remaining threats. Moreover, following the Dominion War, the UFP and Romulans were nominally allied with each other, and we know that there were groups within the RSE (Spock) trying to bring peaceful closure to the gap between the two groups.
Exactly my pint mOO you are assuming that SF was stupid enough to send all its fleet against Shinzon because thats what you would have done, I dont think it was the right call and you haven't proved SF thought it was either therefore the size of the battlegroup has no bearing upon anything except the size of the battlegroup.
Who cares? We have no evidence that there were any other ships there. It is the right course of action, so it makes sense for them to do so. You ignore evidence in favor of your truly bizarre claims that there were additional ships there, despite a complete lack of evidence. This is fallacious. We don't assume that the UFP has PKers, because those have never been observed. Similarly, we do not assume that the UFP had fleets in the area of the NZ, unless we have evidence that they did have fleets there.
You, on the other hand, have absolutely no idea what other ships were doing, if they even existed. As I pointed out previously, this is just an appeal to ignorance fallacy.
Now this is an outright lie, I have said many times what other ships would be doing, patroling the Zone, potecting colonies, protecting earth, preparing a counter strike, hell they could have moved fleet assets to cover the Klingon-Romulan border for all I know.
Why would they cover the Klingon-Romulan border? You have no evidence that they were doing ANY of this. Further, you assume that the UFP would be willing to sell out Earth for its outlying colonies, which we know that they were not willing to do in the past (ref. "Paradise Lost," the Maquis resistance movement, etc.), and we have no evidence that their thought-pattern has changed since then. Demonstrate that these ships existed. All you're doing is attacking my evidence, but you haven't even presented a SHRED of evidence that these other fleets existed.
Again your opinion on what they did doesnt count as canon fact.
No, but it is supported by canon evidence. Again, all you're doing is attacking my evidence. You have not demonstrated that additional fleets existed. You still have not shown any evidence that they did.
Different eras (within the last 15 years, endgame was a year ago - not exaclty a different era, FC was a couple of years before that and so on), you are starting to debate my argument because you know realise that your entire argument is based upon your opinion based upon a tiny flimsy quote that can (and has been) handily dealt with.
Outright lie. You have no evidence that these mysterious fleets existed, therefore the ONLY possible logical conclusion is that they do not. Do we assume the existence of God because life was "created" in the past? Of course not. Similarly, your ideas are based solely around an appeal to ignorance. I have demonstrated verbal dialogue as evidence. I have exhibited the star-map (which conveniently showed NO other ships) as evidence. I have examined that evidence and drawn conclusions based on it. You have no evidence, and have merely attacked my theory with another theory that has no evidence, whatsoever, to support it. Again, when you demonstrate ANYTHING that says that there were more ships than the seven and the E-E, I will believe you. The fact is that you have not. The dialogue stands, unless we have something else that contradicts it (ie. visuals. ie. Another, even less ambiguous piece of dialogue).
Again you DON'T have any evidence they sent every ship you have what you would have done projected onto SF, that doesn't count.
Bullshit. I have a piece of dialogue that clearly refers to the seven ships as the singular, one and only group of ships in the region. I have a map that shows seven of them. The fleet is led by a ship-class that, until recently, was the flagship of the UFP (Galaxy Class), and would still be if not for the Sovereign and Prometheus classes. You have NOTHING to show the existence of another group of ships.
Yet again you cling to this argument that since thats all they sent to take no Shinzon thats all they have got, yuo havent proved it other than to say "thts what I would have done", I hav given many reasons to think this was a bad idea and enough reasons to point that your opinion isn't the only valid one.
No, that's an interpretation of the evidence that we have. It is a conclusion drawn from the evidence.
Ermm Dilithium moons can (and have) blown up in the past, you think SF who have opperatives at the highest levels of he RSE and can take images of Romulus so precise you can make out a guys fac wouldn't notice something like this? Shinzon mayh have been holding the mine hostage but that still doesn't = coup, we saw a Klingon world (kreos 6 I think) undergoing a rebellion - did the high council start panicking about being overhtrown? no.
Oh, come, now. They were talking about negotiating, presumably with a rebel faction, and were afraid of losing the mines (plural, despite what you say). The military was clearly incapable of fighting the Reman revolt, which was presumably led by Shinzon. SF knew none of this. Even this would be enough to warrant the dispatch of additional forces to the Neutral Zone, but we know that SF did not do this because the E-E was the closest ship. This either demonstrates a UFP policy that is completely inconsistent with our modern world, or a lack of preparation. This is not evidence, per se, of my theory, but my theory would allow this to be predicted.
The senate didn't see the Romulan military switching sides so I dont think SF could have been honestly expected to.
Perhaps not, but the UFP should have operatives within the military that the Romulan Senate does not have. Generally speaking, the US government would have no idea if the military was going to rebel. Given that the UFP is supposed to have the head of Romulan internal security on their side, one would expect that they could have known about the coup ahead of time. Generally speaking, groups with powerful internal security services are only vulnerable to coups if their intelligence service cooperates by concealing information. Nonetheless, it is possible that you were correct. This would only give SF two or three days to respond to the new threat, instead of the weeks and months that I had believed.
Demonstrate SF has all the battle planning of a Lemon and will hand the RSE everything upto and including Earth just to chance Shinzon, while he did need Picard by the time we caught up with him it was already getting to the stage where it was too late, if 50 ships had been covering the Ent-E it would be suicide so in a fit of anger (as he does have in the movie) he would go after earth.
Better to hand something over to your enemies than have it destroyed utterly. The UFP seems very hesitant to open fire on its own citizens, and seems to have come to the general consensus that if the UFP is to be destroyed, it is better if the enemy gets its hands on it than if it is destroyed. This is demonstrated during the Dominon War in "Paradise Lost," and the episode where they predict the results of the war (albeit incorrectly), and decide that the UFP will be part of the Dominion, but will eventually be able to rebel. Moreover, you are attacking the prediction of a theory instead of either its evidence or the theory itself.
The fleet taken literally could mean every single SF ship in action - why not go the whole hog and spout this lunarcy instead?
Again Geordi said "The Fleets in" he was refering to no specific fleet smiply refering to THE fleet as ships sent by SF command, a number of ships etc etc, you one piece of flimsy dialogue and your OPINION do not amount t canon fact and to then go on and use an isolated action (unproven I might add) to say that SF has gone back to TNG level (or even lower you would have us believe) state is A) Foolish due to you not proving you actual theory B) stupid because its one isolated incident in a vacumm and C)just plain dumb because even if they HAD weakened their border control (which you havent proven) it cuold simply be because they were working towards peace with Romulas etc.
No, but we have nothing to contradict them with. Again, you are merely attacking evidence instead of demonstrating that your theory is correct, or presenting any evidence that it is correct. Your opinions on things being foolish, stupid, or just plain dumb are OPINION and do not constitute canon fact. Moreover, in this particular case you may be wrong in what is your opinion, as it would be astonishing if SF did maintain its military build-up, given its prior history, following the conclusion of a war. My theory is based on evidence, and your theory is based on nothing but your own wishful thinking. You have no evidnece that your theory is correct, and I DO have evidence that supports my theory.
There is no evidence to show that other ships where in the area except prior knowledge of SF deployment, there is no evidence against other ships being in the area ships but your opion on what should have been done.
Sure there is. It is predicted by my theory, which is consistent with facts demonstrated in "Nemesis." Surely you don't think that evidence from prior shows can overrule evidence from this film? Should I assume that because the Aztecs were known to build pyramids and sacrifice humans on occasion, modern-day Mexico must have similar customs? Of course not. This is because newer evidence from the period is more reliable for predicting things than extrapolating from the rest of history. We should only extrapolate things from history if we have no other evidence in an area, or unless it is completely clear that there is an anomaly. In this case we have neither, and so must assume that those were the only seven ships.
In normal life? SF had been building up because of the Borg, Romulans and Klingon and then later the Dominion, the Borg are still a threat, the Romulans are still a threat, the Klingnos aren't and the Dominion is a reduced threat.
The Borg may have been completely destroyed by the events of "End Game." It is clear that they have taken serious casualties from both the events in that episode, and to Species 8472, and that they are diminished in military power by these. Since the Borg have only ever been able to threaten Earth with non-tactical cubes, it is likely that they do not have the firepower right now to mount another such attack. Additionally, the TPT's are effective against Borg cubes, and it is likely that SF is now much better prepared for dealing with the Borg, at least in the immediate future. The Romulans have taken casualties during the Dominion War, and are nominally allied with the UFP until the start of "Nemesis." That makes them a reduced threat, though still a military threat if there is one to be found. Both the Cardassians and the Klingons were military destroyed by the Dominion War.
There has been no letting up yet you say there has been.
Again, you attack an accurate theory's prediction, which has been observed, for no reason. We SEE that there has been a relaxation since "End Game." My theory predicts this. Your theory has NO explanation for the lack of ships, and is contradicted by canon.
You ask me to prove additional ships again, I have given evidence that SF does what im describing you show me evidence that proves these previous actions and mindsets are no longer in effect.
No you haven't. You have demonstrated that your theory PREDICTS there to be more ships, but your theory has no evidence supporting it. My theory DOES have evidence supporting it, and is therefore likely to be a more accurate theory. NTM the fact that my theory ties together a great deal of observations about the UFP in "Nemesis."
You are the one trying to prove a change in mindset (based upon these incident alone which in turn is based upon you opinon), so you prove this change in mindset, yous till havent proven SF had all available ships there since you havent you cant prove SF had no ships along the border, its possible for some very far out reason they didnt have any other ships available however since Im not trying to build an entir etheory regarding the Federation on information I dont have,im ok you however are not.
I'm not trying to prove a change in mindset, I'm trying to demonstrate that the mindset the UFP had after ST:VI is still present, and the one after the Cardassian-UFP war that occured before TNG. Your theory is the one that is trying to prove that SF has dramatically changed its methods, from the ones seen previously.
Ther eare reason to not have you entire flee go after one ship, hand the Federation to the Romulans, scare Shinzon off anf thus void the reason for your mission (get shinzon to save th federation) and still fail tat mission (scare Shinzon off).
Your theory PREDICTS that they would not have gone after Skippy with the whole fleet, but your theory STILL doesn't have any evidence to support it. Mine does. Mine is consistent with that evidence, and its predictions are confirmed by a great deal of other observations.
I havent proven these ships exist (although I have given every reason to think so) however you havent proven SF sent everything it had, you are building a theory on your unproven guesswork, I'm not theres the diff you see.
No I'm not. I have evidence to support my theory, and its predictions are confirmed by the canon facts. Your theory predicts things less accurately and relies exclusively on guess work.
Oh I see he was given faulty info n SF ship positions, now dont you think he might have twigged if Sf had said they had a huge amount os ships on the border, he does have his own intel network you know, its far more likely SF simply left worlds open on the info they gave him but actually covered those worlds in order to lay a trap for his forces, this however has no bearing what so ever on his forces attacking elsewhere along the border nd I think you know it.
That would be good. It might even get him to stop invading the UFP, which is the ultimate goal of the entire endeavor. Besides, you are once more engaging in speculation. Demonstrate evidence that your theory is more likely to be correct. The ONLY way I can immediately see as to your doing that is by demonstrating that SF had additional ships. Until we observe this, though, my theory is more accurate because it is more in-line with what we observe, and its predictions have all been confirmed by canon.
No i have said countless times that I disagree with the need to move every SF ship within range to meet up with the battlegroup, I see no need for it and therefore I see the size of the battlegroup having any limiting effect on SF stance.
Your opinion does not a canon fact make. Your theory, which is STILL based on nothing, is STILL less accurate than my theory, which is based on some evidence taken from the film.
Yehan and Admiral Ross stated that the Feds only hope was to take out the White Storage during the war, he didnt however pull every single asset he had to mount a frontal assault and he sure as hell didnt hand them Earth or Vulcan to try and accomplish that mission, Picard was of the opinion it was SF only hope however that doesn't mean SF agreed and it didn't mean SF would pull ships from protecting earth (and the border and colonies etc) to try and race to the meeting place when there was no need.
YES HE DID! You are lying, and bending the truth to prove your point. He DID send every resource that he had that would have any chance of being successful into the operation. He sent the ONE ship that he had that would stand any chance of sneaking into the facility and destroying it. Sending a GCS would actually jeopardize the mission. In this case, an extra GCS or Valiant or similar would have AIDED the chances of success in the operation, and shouldhave been deployed if it was available. Thank you for proving my point.
Im getting tired of explainnig the gaping holes in yuor plan but you just dont get it and whats worse you then build an entire theoru outlinging the Feds state of mind upon it.
You haven't explained squat. You sit there and attack my theory's PREDICTIONS (which have all been observed) by using your theory's PREDICTIONS, which explain much of the same information in a different way. You've neglected only one thing: EVIDENCE FOR YOUR THEORY. I have done nothing of the sort. My theory is more likely to be correct than yours, because mine is based on evidence and draws conclusions from that evidence. It also accurately predicts a number of other things shown in the movie. Your theory is based on NOTHING. NADA. ZILCH. It accurately predicts some of the things shown in the movie, but relies on one crucial thing that there is no evidence for: ADDITIONAL SHIPS IN THE AREA. Mine does not rely on this, and is therefore more accurate.
The region was a small sections of the border, we dont see the rest of the border, we dont see the sector behind those, we dont see earth and so on.
OMFG. So what? This does not represent evidence that there were additional ships. This is just a crappy attack on my evidence. Unfortunately for you, it DOES show a very significant portion of the Neutral Zone, and it only has SEVEN SHIPS, plus the E-E in it. Your theory does NOT predict this. My theory DOES predict this. Additionally, MY theory is based on evidence. YOUR theory is based on no evidence, except for your own delusions. Therefore, my theory is more accurate BOTH in premise and predictive qualities.
No mention was made of earths defense just like none where made about other ships therefore both dont exist - gottya.
No you don't. Absence of evidence IS evidence of absence, though it is tremendously flimsy evidence. Thanks for proving that you rely on appeal to ignorance fallacies. Besides, we DO hear about their defenses. We hear that their only chance at stopping Shinzon is if Shinzon attacks the E-E.
I have no alternative theory accept that since we dont see the Feds deployment its logical to assume they are deployed in a manner to how they have been before, you are saying its a new era but to prove that you are using thje fact that its a new era obviously you see the problem here, you are using your conclusion as one of the main factors in reaching that conclusion (because without it you don't have any evidence SF has changed its fleet deployments for what they once where).
Ah, but you DO have an alternative theory. Your theory is that there were a number of other ships and defenses in the region. This theory does not predict the lack of ships in the Neutral Zone, except for the seven ships and the E-E. My theory DOES predict this. Moreover, my theory is based on evidence, while your theory is based on appeal to ignorance fallacies. This is the theory that you have CONSISTENTLY presented during this debate, but my theory is more accurate both in prediction and premise, and it seems as though your theory began with a conclusion and worked its way backwards, rather than the other way around like me.
You claim no ships between the NZ and earth without evidence, you claim no ships along the NZ again without evidence (did yu think that the NZ may be long enough that they couldnt pull forces from across it to converge in time even if they were astupid enough to do so same for earth, Picard has been on NZ before and been out of real time comms range so it must be a long border etc) and then you use these claims to justify a conclusion based upon one unproven and isolated incident.
Again my opinon is that SF wouldnt converge all its forces yours is that they would - everything else is window dressing and since we aren't going to change our minds this is pointless however you will probably once again accuse me of being a coward when in fact im being sensible and reasonable.
And your theory is less accurate than mine in premise and prediction. Concession accepted.
thought the Romulans that turned up were on Shizon's side.
.
.
), the Federation had only a little notice of the coup d'eat on Romulus. The forces assigned to patrol the RNZ (probably mostly destroyer- and cruiser-class with the occasional big-hitter like the Enterprise-E rotated through every now and then) would have been scattered across the entire border area. Concentration of those forces would take time, especially at the low speeds available from warp drive. Even if they had begun immediately, it is unlikely that too many ships would have arrived to support the Enterprise before it was too late.