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lance wrote:Several summon monster spells, gate, polymorph. Hey, I in no way said they were good at it. Thier is also a spell from the planar hand book that takes 2 rounds to cast and heals 3d6 for a third level spell, and the cures bards spell list.

You'll forgive me for this being the only sensible reaction to your 'summon/change' response.

Kuja wrote:

lance wrote: Yes, they are comparable you ignorant fuck. The psion is better at it, and gets it for less resources, can do it more often, and a lot of other shit. And the item costs 3k, hardly a fortion.

That's my fucking point, retard. Giving one class every concievable advantage without any kind of penalty is making it fucking broken. Are you comprehending this?

I does not have every concievable advantage, lacks the ability to its powers as many times as a sorceror or even a wizard. It has a slight advantage over the sorceror in blasting, which can be negated with feats and magic items that the psion has no access to. And he can heal himself.

SirNitram wrote:

lance wrote:Several summon monster spells, gate, polymorph. Hey, I in no way said they were good at it. Thier is also a spell from the planar hand book that takes 2 rounds to cast and heals 3d6 for a third level spell, and the cures bards spell list.

You'll forgive me for this being the only sensible reaction to your 'summon/change' response.

Their is also wish and limited wish.

lance wrote:I does not have every concievable advantage, lacks the ability to its powers as many times as a sorceror or even a wizard.

Repeat in unbroken English, please.

It has a slight advantage over the sorceror in blasting, which can be negated with feats and magic items that the psion has no access to.

By which time the psion has taken his own feats and items to keep his heavy advantage.

Kuja wrote:

lance wrote:I does not have every concievable advantage, lacks the ability to its powers as many times as a sorceror or even a wizard.

Repeat in unbroken English, please.

The psion doesn't have every conceivable advantage. He lacks the ability to use his abilities, his powers, as many times as the sorceror, or even the wizard, can use thier spells.

It has a slight advantage over the sorceror in blasting, which can be negated with feats and magic items that the psion has no access to.

By which time the psion has taken his own feats and items to keep his heavy advantage.

Those items and feats either don't come in psionic flavour, or are weaker for the psion.

lance wrote:Their is also wish and limited wish.

'Sacrifice XP for HP!' So your basically saying the only way for a wizard or sorc to compete with a Psion for self healing is to Wish.

lance wrote:The psion doesn't have every conceivable advantage. He lacks the ability to use his abilities, his powers, as many times as the sorceror, or even the wizard, can use thier spells.

But isn't there something called Psionic Focus where a psion who passes a Concentration check doesn't actually have to spend points to use the power? That throws that right back out the window.

Those items and feats either don't come in psionic flavour, or are weaker for the psion.

Then that's a step towards making it balanced, but it still doesn't change the fact that spellcasters need to push themselves just to keep up.

The only thing a sorcerer does well is blast, so being better there is yet another sign of being imbalanced.

As for the rest, I thing you were trying to say that a psion will run out of psi points before a sorcerer or wizard will run out of spell slots. The problem with that is that the psion will be able to spend those points on the disproportionately useful high level powers, of which a wizard or sorcerer will have much fewer. If I'm playing a 14th level wizard, the fact that I still have second level spells left isn't going to mean much. He's scraping the bottom of the barrel. Being able to cast a lot of high level spells/powers is much more useful.

SirNitram wrote:

lance wrote:Their is also wish and limited wish.

'Sacrifice XP for HP!' So your basically saying the only way for a wizard or sorc to compete with a Psion for self healing is to Wish.

No, those summon/change spells come awfully close to matching the psions awsome healing potential.

Kuja wrote:

lance wrote:The psion doesn't have every conceivable advantage. He lacks the ability to use his abilities, his powers, as many times as the sorceror, or even the wizard, can use thier spells.

But isn't there something called Psionic Focus where a psion who passes a Concentration check doesn't actually have to spend points to use the power? That throws that right back out the window.

Those items and feats either don't come in psionic flavour, or are weaker for the psion.

Then that's a step towards making it balanced, but it still doesn't change the fact that spellcasters need to push themselves just to keep up.

No, that would be "Font of Power" which is a tenth level prestige classs ability.Which is balanced by its half caster level, and the fact that it lasts for 1 minute.

Imperial Overlord wrote:The only thing a sorcerer does well is blast, so being better there is yet another sign of being imbalanced.

No, the sorceror also does every thing a wizard can do quite well. Like buffing, instant death effects, illusions and battle field control spells. The psion is about equal with instant death effects, not sure about the battlefield control, but the remaining 2 they are completely short on.

As for the rest, I thing you were trying to say that a psion will run out of psi points before a sorcerer or wizard will run out of spell slots. The problem with that is that the psion will be able to spend those points on the disproportionately useful high level powers, of which a wizard or sorcerer will have much fewer. If I'm playing a 14th level wizard, the fact that I still have second level spells left isn't going to mean much. He's scraping the bottom of the barrel. Being able to cast a lot of high level spells/powers is much more useful.

Yes, but the psion is completely dry. He has enough power for 16 fully powered buffs and blasts. Don't discount the low level spells, even at this level they still provide a lot of bang. Scorching ray does 12d6 damage,
Alter self gives+6 to your AC, Color spray stuns a for a round at a 50/50 chance against things with low will saves, rope trick gives a safe resting place, web stops many low strength people, even at this level. Ray of enfeeblement can drop a reduce a fighter type to not even being able to move, enlarge, mage armor are all effective at even this level. Though mage armor is reaching the end of its usefullness.

Psions do have some rather nasty diadvantages:

Undead, immune to a rather large amount of Psion powers,

Anything requiring a major Fort save, especially poisons and diseases, doubly so if they cause a lot of ability damage or permanent abilty loss

Demons, Devils, ect. Such creatures have Psionic Resistance equal to their Spell Resistance.

6 words, The Essential Guide To Mind Flayers, as completely nasty as they are normaly useing the guide sends Psi-players into the realm of Lovcraftian horrors

Social stigma: An optional way of taking them down a notch, from the second edition book actually. Having one or several religeons having psychics on the 'burn at stake' list, and looked down on in places that don't kill them on sight. As persona non-grata virtually everywhere they are extremely rare, so NPC psions to train them are hard to find.

This option turns their 'hard to spot' advantage into a liability when it comes to social situations when they are discovered.

Toss in piss poor hit points on that too.

I mean, it's not like a fireball cast by a 10th level wizard can do more damage then a 10th level psion has in hit points..

Oh wait.....

By 14th level, major armour is usually useless. Scorching Ray is useful on the odd chance your target isn't fire resistant, but you're scraping the bottom of the barrel to use it and you still have to hit with a ranged touch attack. Advantage still psion, because using high level psionic powers is extremely cost effective. 9 points spent on a fifth level power has a far better effect than spending 5 for third and because of that, he's uses less of his resources per fight than a wizard because he gets more bang for the buck.

As for sorcerers, they don't have a wizards versatility. The only thing they do well is fire off lots of combat spells until they're dry. Blasting is their only strength, which the more versatile psion does better. Not balanced.

Psions do have some rather nasty diadvantages:

Undead, immune to a rather large amount of Psion powers,

Only telepathy and some psychometabolic really. Kinetics and psychoportation still work fine. They're also immune to all sorts of mind effecting spells and compared to how hard outsider energy immunities hurt arcane casters, this isn't that bad at all.

Anything requiring a major Fort save, especially poisons and diseases, doubly so if they cause a lot of ability damage or permanent abilty loss

Same with arcane casters.

Demons, Devils, ect. Such creatures have Psionic Resistance equal to their Spell Resistance.

Arcane same.

6 words, The Essential Guide To Mind Flayers, as completely nasty as they are normaly useing the guide sends Psi-players into the realm of Lovcraftian horrors

Uber mindflayers hose everybody.

Social stigma: An optional way of taking them down a notch, from the second edition book actually. Having one or several religeons having psychics on the 'burn at stake' list, and looked down on in places that don't kill them on sight. As persona non-grata virtually everywhere they are extremely rare, so NPC psions to train them are hard to find.

This option turns their 'hard to spot' advantage into a liability when it comes to social situations when they are discovered.

Campaign world specific. Darksun has the reverse, to add insult to injury and psionics are much easier to conceal or disguise as magic with a few gestures and nonsense words.

Hitpoints: The same

So the only advantage arcane has is that they can trade having fewer powerful high level spells for having more weaker lower level ones. All the psionicists disadvantages apply equally to arcane casters, who don't have the psionicists advantages.

I'll sum up the ridiculous IM'd discussion I was just given on this:

Mikal 768: IF YOU MIN-MAX EVERYTHING, THE PSION IS NOT THAT MUCH BETTER!!!!1111oneone

As a gamer who dislikes powergaming, and has seen what a Psion does in a non-powergamer-friendly campaign, this understandably drew mockery.

EDIT: The IM then descended into the ridiculous 'YOU JUST USE PERSONAL ATTACKS WHEN YOU LOSE!!!!' bullshit.

The quickest way, off course, to bring a 'out of control' class into line with a non-power gaming setting is to nerf it yourself.

Ban using PSP's to increase the effectiveness of a power (i.e Ultrablast), and that restores alot of the 'missing balance'

SirNitram wrote: As a gamer who dislikes powergaming, and has seen what a Psion does in a non-powergamer-friendly campaign, this understandably drew mockery.

What do you mean by "powergaming"?

lance wrote:

SirNitram wrote: As a gamer who dislikes powergaming, and has seen what a Psion does in a non-powergamer-friendly campaign, this understandably drew mockery.

What do you mean by "powergaming"?

For one thing, if someone uses that phrase, it probably means they're one, about to launch into a campaign to justify their highly measured min-maxing. If you've ever used the term 'dump stat', you're probably powergaming. If you've ever engaged in semantics to gain a specific power, it's powergaming. If you ever identify with Red Mage of 8-Bit theatre, you're a powergamer. And if you can consistantly throw out 3 or 4 times as much HP as your opponent's have, without having a 'flare-out'(See: The Psion nova), you're a powergamer.

SirNitram wrote:

lance wrote:

SirNitram wrote: As a gamer who dislikes powergaming, and has seen what a Psion does in a non-powergamer-friendly campaign, this understandably drew mockery.

What do you mean by "powergaming"?

For one thing, if someone uses that phrase, it probably means they're one, about to launch into a campaign to justify their highly measured min-maxing. If you've ever used the term 'dump stat', you're probably powergaming. If you've ever engaged in semantics to gain a specific power, it's powergaming. If you ever identify with Red Mage of 8-Bit theatre, you're a powergamer. And if you can consistantly throw out 3 or 4 times as much HP as your opponent's have, without having a 'flare-out'(See: The Psion nova), you're a powergamer.

So any fighter that specializes in mounted combat is a powergamer?
That list seems very arbitary. I don't fit your criteria, and I consider myself a slight power gamer. If I am playing a tripper, I will try to get a spike chain with sweeping. If I'm playing a knight I will grab shocktrooper and a valorious lance. The seem like no brainers to me.

If I am playing a warhulk I won't be using a ring of spell storing with divine power in it. I just think thats cheap. Unless I'm in a party where the 1/2 dragon barbarian would have to of had been using d20s for hp and has a strength in the 60s. I don't like my characters to suck at their specialty. I also don't like Frenzied Berserker, it just seems moronic.

I like versitility over power, which is one of the reasons I like psionist, psionic warrior, gishes, and the incarnum classes.

SirNitram wrote:

As anyone checked out Magic of Incarnum? That's an idea with potential.

Keep wavering on buying it. It's definately an interesting idea....

I bought it and I recommend it. Though I would recommend the Psionics Handbook too. Their is an incarnum/psionic feat that is just plain broken. Thier is the theurge prestige classes, a soulknife type prestige class, equipment for the new system is pretty good with a couple of things not as built as well as it could be. New races, including a race born to human parents. Trades skill points and Favored class any for an incarnum point and Favored class soul born. They also lose a couple decades on life span.

lance wrote:

SirNitram wrote:

lance wrote: What do you mean by "powergaming"?

For one thing, if someone uses that phrase, it probably means they're one, about to launch into a campaign to justify their highly measured min-maxing. If you've ever used the term 'dump stat', you're probably powergaming. If you've ever engaged in semantics to gain a specific power, it's powergaming. If you ever identify with Red Mage of 8-Bit theatre, you're a powergamer. And if you can consistantly throw out 3 or 4 times as much HP as your opponent's have, without having a 'flare-out'(See: The Psion nova), you're a powergamer.

So any fighter that specializes in mounted combat is a powergamer?

Now, where did I say that, kiddo? I don't like words stuffed in my mouth.

That list seems very arbitary. I don't fit your criteria, and I consider myself a slight power gamer. If I am playing a tripper, I will try to get a spike chain with sweeping. If I'm playing a knight I will grab shocktrooper and a valorious lance. The seem like no brainers to me.

Ah, trip-spammers. But the list isn't as arbitrary as those who object to such simple standards would like to make it appear.

If I am playing a warhulk I won't be using a ring of spell storing with divine power in it. I just think thats cheap. Unless I'm in a party where the 1/2 dragon barbarian would have to of had been using d20s for hp and has a strength in the 60s. I don't like my characters to suck at their specialty. I also don't like Frenzied Berserker, it just seems moronic.

Warhulk is flatly broken. Shit, everything with 'Hulk' is flatly broken. It's nice how you strawman my simple, straightforward standards into 'Otherwise I would suck at my speciality', though. Says alot.

SirNitram wrote:

For one thing, if someone uses that phrase, it probably means they're one, about to launch into a campaign to justify their highly measured min-maxing. If you've ever used the term 'dump stat', you're probably powergaming. If you've ever engaged in semantics to gain a specific power, it's powergaming. If you ever identify with Red Mage of 8-Bit theatre, you're a powergamer. And if you can consistantly throw out 3 or 4 times as much HP as your opponent's have, without having a 'flare-out'(See: The Psion nova), you're a powergamer.

So any fighter that specializes in mounted combat is a powergamer?

Now, where did I say that, kiddo? I don't like words stuffed in my mouth.

Here

And if you can consistantly throw out 3 or 4 times as much HP as your opponent's have, without having a 'flare-out'(See: The Psion nova), you're a powergamer.

If I am playing a warhulk I won't be using a ring of spell storing with divine power in it. I just think thats cheap. Unless I'm in a party where the 1/2 dragon barbarian would have to of had been using d20s for hp and has a strength in the 60s. I don't like my characters to suck at their specialty. I also don't like Frenzied Berserker, it just seems moronic.

Warhulk is flatly broken. Shit, everything with 'Hulk' is flatly broken. It's nice how you strawman my simple, straightforward standards into 'Otherwise I would suck at my speciality', though. Says alot.

A The Warhulk is fine as a class, it was only seriously broken when it was combined with Hulking Hurler.
B Your standereds are not straight forward. If they were they wouldn't have the it probly means your one and the like.
C If my character is as effective to the party doing its job, as it is wanking in the middle of the battle then my character is of no use to the party and should either retire, or find a way to be usefull.

First off, is it that hard to use the quote function?

lance wrote:

SirNitram wrote:

So any fighter that specializes in mounted combat is a powergamer?

Now, where did I say that, kiddo? I don't like words stuffed in my mouth.

Here

And if you can consistantly throw out 3 or 4 times as much HP as your opponent's have, without having a 'flare-out'(See: The Psion nova), you're a powergamer.

You have a funny definition of 'consistantly', or your DM is an imbecile that lets you perform mounted charges consistantly in all sorts of enviroments that wouldn't support this.

If I am playing a warhulk I won't be using a ring of spell storing with divine power in it. I just think thats cheap. Unless I'm in a party where the 1/2 dragon barbarian would have to of had been using d20s for hp and has a strength in the 60s. I don't like my characters to suck at their specialty. I also don't like Frenzied Berserker, it just seems moronic.

Warhulk is flatly broken. Shit, everything with 'Hulk' is flatly broken. It's nice how you strawman my simple, straightforward standards into 'Otherwise I would suck at my speciality', though. Says alot.

A The Warhulk is fine as a class, it was only seriously broken when it was combined with Hulking Hurler.
B Your standereds are not straight forward. If they were they wouldn't have the it probly means your one and the like.

You're one of those imbeciles who thinks a term must be absolutely digital, on/off, aren't you?

C If my character is as effective to the party doing its job, as it is wanking in the middle of the battle then my character is of no use to the party and should either retire, or find a way to be usefull.

Once again you strawman from 'powergaming' into 'If you make yourself even slightly useful..'. Do it again and this gets unpleasant, because you're lying about my argument, shitstain.

You have a funny definition of 'consistantly', or your DM is an imbecile that lets you perform mounted charges consistantly in all sorts of enviroments that wouldn't support this.

Most of my DMs campains have been in the non-dungeon dwelling types, and the vast majority of the times mounted charges were possible. Their were times when charging would have been impossible.

You're one of those imbeciles who thinks a term must be absolutely digital, on/off, aren't you?

Your standards for powergaming suck, I like the definition that goes "When ever you choose a characteristic due to a numerical benifit you are powergaming".

Once again you strawman from 'powergaming' into 'If you make yourself even slightly useful..'. Do it again and this gets unpleasant, because you're lying about my argument, shitstain.

Bullshit. Their is no strawman, a warhulk buying a ring of spellstoring for divine power is an unacceptable level of power gaming for me. Unless he would be useless with out it. How the fuck could you get that that would not be power gaming? Maybe I just wasn't clear.

lance wrote:Bullshit. Their is no strawman, a warhulk buying a ring of spellstoring for divine power is an unacceptable level of power gaming for me. Unless he would be useless with out it. How the fuck could you get that that would not be power gaming?

'I'm now going to refer to some obscure, crappily made prestidge class and an equally obscure item usage with it because I can't make an argument without obscure bullshit'.

Make an argument not built on minutae I couldn't give two shits about, then try again.