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Vendetta wrote:
An individual meme or even a memeplex cannot be "self aware" any more than a gene or chromosome can. They are neuron linkages in the brains of individual humans, which represent ideas that can replicate themselves by transmitting themselves to other humans via communication. The idea that there is a shadowy conspiracy called "The Patriots" running the country from behind the scenes is a meme. It is an idea that spreads by sounding convincing, and by drawing just enough on coincidental events and paranoia in infected subjects to gain a foothold and spread.

The beauty of this as a meme is that there does not need to be a conspiracy, as long as the people in the right places are all carrying the Patriots meme, they will act as if the Patriots were real, and thereby facilitate the reproduction of the meme.

Pity that wasn't the route the script took, it would have been cool.

But how do you know it didn't take that route? The whole final conversation could have been a nice big fat lie, there was no incentive whatsoever to tell Jack the truth, only to get him to dispose of the one guy (at that time) who knew of The Patriots and was made enough to do something about it, likely involving a fuck off big H-bomb. Until it is resolved in MGS4, there is little to connect to original Philosopher's with the modern Wiseman's Committee that is The Patriots.

MKSheppard wrote:*Looks at all the idiots trying to make sense of the psychobabble that Metal Gear Solid 2 was spewing*

Not psychobabble, it's just somewhat sketchy science used in a way to mislead in many instances.

The game quite simply lost me at the beginning (Hey, an unknown group has taken over the top decks of this ship commanded by US Marines and containing a metal gear, and if the marines in the hold see me, the game ends RIGHT THERE, not even a "Hey guys, your entire topside crew is dead" comment) but of course, things must go a predetermined way because Kojima Knows Best; even if it means making every Marine on that ship a retarded idiot.

Right, because a lone, armed man on a ship that shouldn't exist is going to be getting into dialogue with a whole fuckload of marines. Even if Snake did go "I'm a good guy!", it'd be too late to actually do anything bar abandon ship.

It then continued to get progressively worse; right; a single pretty-boi wannabe (raiden) is going to succeed where an entire SEAL team failed?

The SEAL Team 10 went in to take out Dead Cell, and failed miserably. Raiden was meant to get in sneakily and find out more information, then take necessary action. One guy who has fought all his life is going to have a better chance of evading the freaks than a whole squad, dontchathink?

the psychobabble VR simulation or not "meme" whatever at the end only capped off the idiocy.

No, it set the stage for a clusterfuck scenario that seems to be MGS4 given it looks like war came about. You can go on about long codec convos being tiresome, but everything else fit and nary a thing wrong with the game itself.

And MGS3 had no "psychobabble" and explained a great deal about the whole issue. It's worth buying just to watch Ocelot as a young cretin coming of age.

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Not psychobabble, it's just somewhat sketchy science used in a way to mislead in many instances.

It's more like trying to make sense of a plot that was written by someone who was doing a line of cocaine mixed with hashhish, and trying to do so with a lot of psychobabble words about "memes" which really are trying to obscure the simple fact that the story of MGS2 sucked donkey balls.

Right, because a lone, armed man on a ship that shouldn't exist is going to be getting into dialogue with a whole fuckload of marines.

It's extremely sloppy linearar storytelling of the kind that plagues japanese games, as I will elaborate further. Secondly, Isn't snake's mission to PREVENT metal gear proliferation? It's actually safer for this Metal Gear prototype to be with the US Marines than in the hands of this unknown group who just iced the entire topside crew, right?

Even if Snake did go "I'm a good guy!", it'd be too late to actually do anything bar abandon ship.

Actually it would go like.

"HANDS UP!"

*snake raises hands*

"Uh guys, your entire topside watch is dead. They've been killed by an unknown group"

"Fuck you."

"I'm serious, check in with topside."

*A Marine raises a walkie-talkie and gets static from topside*

"Fuck! Get ready for an attack!"

*segue into very long chaotic combat sequence where the ship gets trashed anyway in the end only this way Ocelot/Liquid barely manage to get away with it, rather than walking away with the Metal Gear easily; you could also have the stock MGS2 scene if the character choses to "sneak around" the Marines; but this would be too much brain power for Kojima, who is happily snorting a line of cocaine.

The SEAL Team 10 went in to take out Dead Cell, and failed miserably. Raiden was meant to get in sneakily and find out more information, then take necessary action. One guy who has fought all his life is going to have a better chance of evading the freaks than a whole squad, dontchathink?

*slaps Valdemar*

I was unaware that spending your childhood fighting for some shithole african army as a child soldier addicted to drugs and using "spray and pray" with an AK-47 makes you superior to a SEAL team. Never mind that you have exactly ZERO combat experience with FOXHOUND, it's all been VR training, you will somehow succeed in killing Dead Cell where an entire SEAL Team with much more firepower than you failed.

No, it set the stage for a clusterfuck scenario that seems to be MGS4 given it looks like war came about. You can go on about long codec convos being tiresome, but everything else fit and nary a thing wrong with the game itself.

Right, you didn't get tired of the "This is a VR simulation!!!" "No this is reality!" "We're only computer programs!" garbage?

MKSheppard wrote:It then continued to get progressively worse; right; a single pretty-boi wannabe (raiden) is going to succeed where an entire SEAL team failed?

In the same way that one man managed to take out an entire company (or was it closer to brigade?) of next-gen soldiers lead by freaks with super-powers. Why don't you complain about how the US did not send a platoon of Navy SEALs instead of one operative to Shadow Moses island?

MKShepard wrote:Right, you didn't get tired of the "This is a VR simulation!!!" "No this is reality!" "We're only computer programs!" garbage?

Again, at no point is it suggested in MGS2 that the thing was a simulation. Unless you are talking about the Colonel specifically, in which case it was quite clear that he was the GW super-computer. The whole last codec scene features "Rose" and the "Colonel" only because they where people familiar to Raiden.



MGS3 SPOILERS AHEAD

Until it is resolved in MGS4, there is little to connect to original Philosopher's with the modern Wiseman's Committee that is The Patriots.

After you beat MGS3 there is a timeline that tells you of several events that happened afterwards. In the 1970s the American Branch of the Philosophers changes it's name to the Patriots. I like how MGS3 indirectly explains how the Patriots got the funding to pay for the Metal Gear project and eventually, Arsenal Gear and it's complement of mass produced Metal Gear Rays. The Legacy of the Philosophers = Enough money to fight WWII five times over, minus whatever Colonel Volgin already spent.

MKSheppard wrote:
It's more like trying to make sense of a plot that was written by someone who was doing a line of cocaine mixed with hashhish, and trying to do so with a lot of psychobabble words about "memes" which really are trying to obscure the simple fact that the story of MGS2 sucked donkey balls.

As you wish.

It's extremely sloppy linearar storytelling of the kind that plagues japanese games, as I will elaborate further. Secondly, Isn't snake's mission to PREVENT metal gear proliferation? It's actually safer for this Metal Gear prototype to be with the US Marines than in the hands of this unknown group who just iced the entire topside crew, right?

It would cause escalation since having something to take out REX would mean someone making something to take out RAY and on it goes again. We have enough weapons without these being around.

Actually it would go like.

"HANDS UP!"

*snake raises hands*

"Uh guys, your entire topside watch is dead. They've been killed by an unknown group"

"Fuck you."

"I'm serious, check in with topside."

*A Marine raises a walkie-talkie and gets static from topside*

"Fuck! Get ready for an attack!"

*segue into very long chaotic combat sequence where the ship gets trashed anyway in the end only this way Ocelot/Liquid barely manage to get away with it, rather than walking away with the Metal Gear easily; you could also have the stock MGS2 scene if the character choses to "sneak around" the Marines; but this would be too much brain power for Kojima, who is happily snorting a line of cocaine.

By which time, Ocelot would still just set off the charges and hijack RAY. It's not like the marines could do shit there and then with him right next to the thing and equipped with the EM device.

*slaps Valdemar*

I was unaware that spending your childhood fighting for some shithole african army as a child soldier addicted to drugs and using "spray and pray" with an AK-47 makes you superior to a SEAL team. Never mind that you have exactly ZERO combat experience with FOXHOUND, it's all been VR training, you will somehow succeed in killing Dead Cell where an entire SEAL Team with much more firepower than you failed.

Where was it stated Jack was a typical child soldier? Ever thought there might be a reason he was actually chosen for FOX-HOUND? I doubt it had anything to do with him being unable to fire and being a crack addict, unless spec-ops actively recruits the lowest common denominator.

Right, you didn't get tired of the "This is a VR simulation!!!" "No this is reality!" "We're only computer programs!" garbage?

Not really, because at the end it was resolved. It was only when in Arsenal Gear did you get this confusion, and after that, it's all peachy again.

Look, I'm obviously not going to convince you here, but I am saying you're writing off a perfectly good game (MGS3) simply because the plot of MGS2 had some wacky scientific literature backing it. I assure you, MGS3 is enjoyable, just as good as MGS and given the conspiracy is out of the way now, MGS4 should be all about correcting this political fuck-up, though since it looks like war, that may be too late.

MKSheppard, apparently you didn't get the "buwahaha, that's exactly as it was supposed to go!" talk* re: the Raiden > SEAL Team 10 infamy... then again, Fortune did have the bullet-deflecting thingamajiggie that let her ignore all of the SEAL Team's fire, and Raiden never did defeat her...

* Admittedly this may have simply been verbal ass-coverage by the AI, their plans having already (supposedly?) gone awry thanks to the unexpected presence of Solid Snake -- whose retention of his central role in MGS was through being the guy who took the perfect plan and fucked it long and hard in the ass.

Edward Yee wrote:MKSheppard, apparently you didn't get the

Apparently you're too stupid to get the 'Don't necro threads' rule.