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Alyeska wrote: You just gave an example that actually hurts your own side. Because the fleet distribution is not even, there could be MORE ships elsewhere.

Not really. The Romulan Neutral Zone should have been the most built-up militarily of the entire UFP. As I have explained before numerous times (and you subsequently ignored), the RSE is the only remaining threat to the UFP, from a military stand point. After a coup, they should have immediately re-routed a very high proportion of their ships and fleets to the area.

Then you get into terminology. Which is higher? The visual information that calls it a battlegroup, or someones dialogue that calls it a fleet? People tend to use other terms when talking. "I am going back to the fleet" is a commong saying for meaning your just going back to the ship.

As I have explained, NUMEROUS times, a battlegroup has no fixed definition. It can be used interchangeably for anything from a task force to an armada. This proves nothing. It is not even evidence of anything.

And the non-warp capable ship. What is this from? TOS? If so, the Neutral Zone has likely expanded. Also, is it possible this Impulse only ship covered a horizontal distance from one side of the border to the other (Romulan to Federation) rather then the length of the border?

Why has the Neutral Zone suddenly gotten far larger? Further, if you look at the map, the ship was moving from UFP outpost to UFP outpost, along the border of the Neutral Zone. Any deviation from a straight line would only decrease the size of the Neutral Zone.

My theory is invalid? Lets see, the Federation deemed the Romulans a significant enough threat in the future. You claim they have a pathetic number of ships even though its listed as a battle group. You claim the border itself is small, though your cited example is questionable at best.

You have no case. Look, a battlegroup is the same as a fleet (or a task force, or even an armada). The border is a clear-cut case of wishful thinking (and you have no evidence that it has gotten larger), and the first of your claims ("Lets see, the Federation deemed the Romulans a significant enough threat in the future.") makes no sense.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Alyeska wrote: You just gave an example that actually hurts your own side. Because the fleet distribution is not even, there could be MORE ships elsewhere.

Not really. The Romulan Neutral Zone should have been the most built-up militarily of the entire UFP. As I have explained before numerous times (and you subsequently ignored), the RSE is the only remaining threat to the UFP, from a military stand point. After a coup, they should have immediately re-routed a very high proportion of their ships and fleets to the area.

Then you get into terminology. Which is higher? The visual information that calls it a battlegroup, or someones dialogue that calls it a fleet? People tend to use other terms when talking. "I am going back to the fleet" is a commong saying for meaning your just going back to the ship.

As I have explained, NUMEROUS times, a battlegroup has no fixed definition. It can be used interchangeably for anything from a task force to an armada. This proves nothing. It is not even evidence of anything.

And the non-warp capable ship. What is this from? TOS? If so, the Neutral Zone has likely expanded. Also, is it possible this Impulse only ship covered a horizontal distance from one side of the border to the other (Romulan to Federation) rather then the length of the border?

Why has the Neutral Zone suddenly gotten far larger? Further, if you look at the map, the ship was moving from UFP outpost to UFP outpost, along the border of the Neutral Zone. Any deviation from a straight line would only decrease the size of the Neutral Zone.

My theory is invalid? Lets see, the Federation deemed the Romulans a significant enough threat in the future. You claim they have a pathetic number of ships even though its listed as a battle group. You claim the border itself is small, though your cited example is questionable at best.

You have no case. Look, a battlegroup is the same as a fleet (or a task force, or even an armada). The border is a clear-cut case of wishful thinking (and you have no evidence that it has gotten larger), and the first of your claims ("Lets see, the Federation deemed the Romulans a significant enough threat in the future.") makes no sense.

The ENTIRE premise of your argument is that a small number of ships was covering a LARGE area. Do you actually have anything to support your size of the border? We know the Federation expanded in size from the original series. Just look at the NCC numbers and the number of ships the Federation first had. We know the Romulans also border Cardassian space, and the Cardassians were unknown back in TOS time.

How big is the RSE/Fed border? Your entire premise hinges on the thing being small. But if your wrong, and the area depicted was a SMALL section of the border, then, well, your wrong. Your assuming something that you don't have any evidence to back up. The size of the border is unknown, and that throws out your entire line of reasoning.

The Romulan ship was never said to be non warp capable - the very idea of it being sub light only is rather stupi indeed (how could earth have a war with the Romulans if the romulans would need generation or sleeper ships with which to attack).

The ship was said to only be powered by "simple Impulse" wbhich could be taken to mean it didn't have a warp core (Romulans often stray from the standard power generation methods) and possibly some kind of Fusion which only allowed low warp speeds.

Added to the fact that it didnt traverse a long stretch of the border plus the fact that the border could have increased in length and you have no grounds for saying the border is short.

Did you think possibly Picard was told that SF had sent a battlegroup (maybe after Shizon didn't contact him for so many hours) or maybe Picard was briefed on the closest battlegroup on patrol in the info Janeway sent him.

Picard knowing that this was the closest gathering of ships (and having told his crew this) simply refers to it as the fleet since he has already told them that there is a battle group nearby when he had one of his meetings.

Or he could simply be refering to it as "the fleet" as I have already put forth reasons for and Alyeska just covered.

Your opinion of "the fleet" is what your theory rests upon since another opinion of that dialogue fits in with the other theory you have no more evidence than the other theory thus there isn't enough evidence to draw a conclusion.

TheDarkling wrote:The Romulan ship was never said to be non warp capable - the very idea of it being sub light only is rather stupi indeed (how could earth have a war with the Romulans if the romulans would need generation or sleeper ships with which to attack).

The ship was said to only be powered by "simple Impulse" wbhich could be taken to mean it didn't have a warp core (Romulans often stray from the standard power generation methods) and possibly some kind of Fusion which only allowed low warp speeds.

Okay, so you're saying that the phrase "simple impulse," means that the ship MIGHT be able to enter warp? The problem here is that the other Romulan power cores have been shown to be as advanced, or even more advanced, than UFP power cores. EVERY other time someone has used the phrase, "Impulse," it has been in contrast to the FTL speeds offered by warp.

Added to the fact that it didnt traverse a long stretch of the border plus the fact that the border could have increased in length and you have no grounds for saying the border is short.

What do you mean? It travelled a considerable portion of the border. It traversed the entire distance between two outposts, and destroyed them both. The UFP does not have many outposts there, and so unless you are implying that the UFP ignored the rest of the border while protecting the small section of it, you have no case. Moreover, provide evidence that the border has grown since then.

Did you think possibly Picard was told that SF had sent a battlegroup (maybe after Shizon didn't contact him for so many hours) or maybe Picard was briefed on the closest battlegroup on patrol in the info Janeway sent him.

WHAT? I don't even understand the point, here.

Picard knowing that this was the closest gathering of ships (and having told his crew this) simply refers to it as the fleet since he has already told them that there is a battle group nearby when he had one of his meetings.

Provide evidence that this is the correct interpretation of the dialogue. It relies on the existence of other ships, which has not been proven. Moreover, you are STILL trying to evade the point. My theory clearly explains everything that we see on screen. The alternative theory does not have any predictive qualities, and therefore fails as a theory.

Or he could simply be refering to it as "the fleet" as I have already put forth reasons for and Alyeska just covered.

He said that Star Fleet has rerouted THE fleet to rendezvous with them. Star Fleet would not send THE fleet. It would send A fleet, or a portion of a fleet. You would be correct, if the quote was in reference only to Picard or an individual admiral. Star Fleet sent THE fleet, out. Thus, Star Fleet sent the only fleet available out to help them. This is the proper, grammatical way to interpret the quote.

Your opinion of "the fleet" is what your theory rests upon since another opinion of that dialogue fits in with the other theory you have no more evidence than the other theory thus there isn't enough evidence to draw a conclusion.

But my theory also provides predictive qualities that your theory does not have. In order for this theory to be wrong in order to be usurped by another theory, you must first show that the new theory has better predictive qualities than my theory. Since your theory predicts things that are clearly incorrect, your theory is less correct than mine. Besides, my theory is based on the proper grammatical interpretation of the quote, given the context of STAR FLEET sending the ships, as opposed to an individual person. This is not the only group of ships available to them, but rather is the only group of ships available for Star Fleet. As I have stated (and you guys have summarily ignored) numerous times, your theory MUST show first that it has better predictive qualities than my theory. Since my theory has better predictive qualities, it is more correct and useful, at least until further evidence is brought up that shows its predictive qualities to be incorrect.

This is really more about canon evidence, instead of inflated theories. We saw a seven ship battle group waiting at a rendezvous point in a solar system. According to STFC, and DS9 we know that the Federation has more than seven ships. Because they did not make the appearance or choose the tactics that you think would be appropriate in this case in no way means that Starfleet reduced it's fleet size.

Can we engage them with a reasonable possibility of victory?
No question. Their power is simple impulse.

Now their power is impulse, the ship does enter warp because it covers distances that require greater than c, or maybe it just has one of those FTL impulse engines that pop up from time to time, I don't really care which it is.
You also say the Feds don't have a lot of outposts in the area (your proof is?), we see ten and the border stretches off screen, again we have no proof as to the length of the border.

Provide evidence the border has grown? how about you prove the size of the border in TNG or TOS first, whats that you say? like of evidence... gee if only someone could have forseen that.

Provide evidence that your interpretation is correct.

Again the literal interpretation of THE FLEET could be many things including the entire STARFLEET, would you agree thats what starfleet did? if so then you really have lost the plot if not then explan why not.

What predictive qualities exactly does your theory have?

I saw the movie again today and Picard says a line in the briefing room along these lines:

"We are heading for OUR fleet"

The words may be a little different, but he definetly said "OUR FLEET", which means, it was the fleet that the were assigned to, not the only one, not THE FLEET, it was OUR FLEET.

See the movie and during the scene before Battlestations, he says it, the annonated scrpt may be different but that was before it was changed.

What I meant by this is, in one scene, he calls it the fleet, as if its the fleet

but in my quote, it means the fleet that they belong to, "Our fleet", meaning, not the whole fleet, but what fleet/battlegroup he belongs to, also, evidence on screen is more valid than somebody's words, isn't it? so we definetly know it is a battlegroup, what we don't know if it is a fleet or a simple task force.