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Darth Wong wrote:What about the same fucktard who's always wanking about dolphin intelligence turning around and slagging Star Wars for "genetic determinism" because you can inherit Force powers?

It's pretty obvious that Brin can't form a logically consistent argument to save his life; his various screeds against Star Wars are nothing more than the jealous ravings of a writer who toils in relative obscurity and wishes people would notice him.

Patrick Degan wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:What about the same fucktard who's always wanking about dolphin intelligence turning around and slagging Star Wars for "genetic determinism" because you can inherit Force powers?

It's pretty obvious that Brin can't form a logically consistent argument to save his life; his various screeds against Star Wars are nothing more than the jealous ravings of a writer who toils in relative obscurity and wishes people would notice him.

Basically a Robert Scott Anderson who managed to take out at least a little time to have something of a legitimate professional career on the side.

Now ponder something that comes through even the party-line demonization of a crushed enemy. This clearcut and undeniable fact. Sauron's army was the one that included every species and race on Middle Earth, including all the despised colors of humanity, and all the lower classes.

Hm. Did they all leave their homes and march to war thinking "Oh, goody, let's go serve an evil dark lord"?

Or might they instead have thought they were the 'good guys', with a justifiable grievance worth fighting for, rebelling against an ancient, rigid, pyramid-shaped, feudal hierarchy topped by invader-alien elves and their Numenorean colonialist human lackeys?

Picture, for a moment, Sauron the Eternal Rebel, relentlessly maligned by the victors of the Ring War -- the royalists who control the bards and scribes (and movie-makers). Sauron, champion of the common Middle-Earther! Vanquished but still revered by the innumerable poor and oppressed who sit in their squalid huts, wary of the royal secret police with their magical spy-eyes, yet continuing to whisper stories, secretly dreaming and hoping that someday he will return... bringing more rings.

Darth Wong wrote:So Darth Vader is irredeemably evil by virtue of having been standing next to Tarkin when Tarkin ordered the destruction of Alderaan during a civil war, but Sauron might be a good guy because he had coloured people working for him? Is this Brin clown for real?

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:So Darth Vader is irredeemably evil by virtue of having been standing next to Tarkin when Tarkin ordered the destruction of Alderaan during a civil war, but Sauron might be a good guy because he had coloured people working for him? Is this Brin clown for real?

I was going to make a somewhat lengthy reply, but in the end it just leaves me absolutely speechless.

Seriously, what the fuck? The Devil can generate more sympathy than Sauron or Morgoth: they're probably one of the most ultimate forms of evil in modern fiction. Does Brin ever have even the remote iota of a fucking clue when he's talking about other peoples' properties?

On that much we can all agree. But I think there's more to the Ring Wraiths. To me, they distill the classic Greek notion of hubris -- a concept that romantics often embrace -- the idea that pain and damnation await any mortal whose ambition aims too high. Don't try putting on the trappings or emblems or powers that rightfully belong to your betters. Above all, don't try to decipher and redistribute mysteries.

In other words, exactly the same morality tale preached in Star Wars.

Heh.

All right, we don't have to go quite that far!

Here's a milder version. Those orcs and low-elves and dwarves and dark-skinned or proletarian men who fought for the Ringlord were fooled by Sauron's propaganda.

Fair enough. Even that slight variation adds flavor to an already-great tale, making you pity Sauron's dupes a little, even though you still cheer as they're slaughtered down to the last private and orcoral.

Come on folks, a little empathy.

Instead of railing against 'evil,' try to understand it. That's always been the best way to defeat it.

# # #

Am I pulling your leg? You bet! I don't take speculations about fictional villains quite that seriously.

My real point is much more general. It's this --

Don't just receive your adventures. Toy with them. Re-mold them in your mind! Keep asking "What if...?" It's how you get practice not just being a passive consumer, or critic, but a creative storyteller in your own right.

And remember this too -- enlightenment, science, democracy and equal opportunity are still the true rebels, reigning for just a few generations (and still imperfectly!) in one or two corners of the Earth, after elite chiefs, romantic bards and magicians dominated our ancestors for maybe half a million years.

Don't you think a little pride in that rebellion might be called for? A radical revolution-in-progress, still fresh and incomplete.

A rebellion that (among many other things) taught serfs like you to read so you can enjoy epic books and picture things different than they are.

One that makes vivid movies that cater to your taste for adventure.

One that, for all its imperfections, gave you a better chance than in some peasant village of old.

One that has a long way to go, but has at least turned our eyes around to face the future.

Self-critical almost to a fault, this culture may not be as romantic as those old kingdoms... but isn't it better?

You are heirs of the world's first true civilization, arising out of the first true revolution. Take some pride in it...

Let's keep enjoying kings and wizards. But also remember to keep them where they belong.

Where they can do little harm.

Where they entertain us.

In fantasies.

THE END

Brin the moron wrote:Let's keep enjoying kings and wizards. But also remember to keep them where they belong.

Where they can do little harm.

Where they entertain us.

In fantasies.

THE END

David Brin wrote:Minor nitpick... did anyone notice the repeated use of the phrase 'fire on the Federation starship!' and 'don't let the Federation starship get away!'

What are these guys -- Klingons?

A dig at Star Trek? What do you want, a monopoly? Hey, people have enjoyed 100 times as many hours of that universe as they have yours, George. Live with it.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote: Seriously, what the fuck? The Devil can generate more sympathy than Sauron or Morgoth: they're probably one of the most ultimate forms of evil in modern fiction. Does Brin ever have even the remote iota of a fucking clue when he's talking about other peoples' properties?

Stark wrote:Brin has a fair complaint - there is no reason for anyone in SW to say 'fire on the Federation starship' or 'don't let the Federation starship escape'. There are no Federations in SW - certainly none involved with Trade - and at no point would such a Federation have ships fleeing loyalist forces during a rebellion. It's just gratuitious Star Trek bashing, which really shows what George thinks about when he writes movies.

Article about 'The Postman' movie wrote:The Postman was written as an answer to all those post-apocalyptic books and films that seem to revel in the idea of civilization's fall. It's a story about how much we take for granted -- and how desperately we would miss the little, gracious things that connect us today. It is a story about the last idealist in a fallen America. A man who cannot let go of a dream we all once shared. Who sparks restored faith that we can recover, and perhaps even become better than we were. It would take a special kind of actor to play the lead role -- a ragged survivor, deeply scarred, yet still willing to hope. In this era of cynicism, we need reminders of the decency that lies within.

Heh.

All right, we don't have to go quite that far!

Here's a milder version. Those orcs and low-elves and dwarves and dark-skinned or proletarian men who fought for the Ringlord were fooled by Sauron's propaganda.

Fair enough. Even that slight variation adds flavor to an already-great tale, making you pity Sauron's dupes a little, even though you still cheer as they're slaughtered down to the last private and orcoral.

Come on folks, a little empathy.

Instead of railing against 'evil,' try to understand it. That's always been the best way to defeat it.

# # #

Am I pulling your leg? You bet! I don't take speculations about fictional villains quite that seriously.

My real point is much more general. It's this --

Don't just receive your adventures. Toy with them. Re-mold them in your mind! Keep asking "What if...?" It's how you get practice not just being a passive consumer, or critic, but a creative storyteller in your own right.

And remember this too -- enlightenment, science, democracy and equal opportunity are still the true rebels, reigning for just a few generations (and still imperfectly!) in one or two corners of the Earth, after elite chiefs, romantic bards and magicians dominated our ancestors for maybe half a million years.

Don't you think a little pride in that rebellion might be called for? A radical revolution-in-progress, still fresh and incomplete.

A rebellion that (among many other things) taught serfs like you to read so you can enjoy epic books and picture things different than they are.

One that makes vivid movies that cater to your taste for adventure.

One that, for all its imperfections, gave you a better chance than in some peasant village of old.

One that has a long way to go, but has at least turned our eyes around to face the future.

Self-critical almost to a fault, this culture may not be as romantic as those old kingdoms... but isn't it better?

You are heirs of the world's first true civilization, arising out of the first true revolution. Take some pride in it...

Let's keep enjoying kings and wizards. But also remember to keep them where they belong.

Where they can do little harm.

Where they entertain us.

In fantasies.

THE END

Come on folks, a little empathy.

What Brin could say? wrote:All right, we don't have to go quite that far!

Here's a milder version. Those Nazis and their collaborators and allies and all European men who fought for Htler were fooled by Goebbels' propaganda.

Fair enough. Even that slight variation adds flavor to an already-great tale, making you pity Hitler's dupes a little, even though you still cheer as they're slaughtered down to the last private and corporal.

Come on folks, a little empathy.

Instead of railing against 'evil,' try to understand it. That's always been the best way to defeat it.

Self-critical almost to a fault, this culture may not be as romantic as those old kingdoms...