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IIRC, Vader said something like: "We'll have to take them down ship-to-ship." Technically, he didn't command any fighters to deploy, he was just stating the obvious. Anybody could have ordered the fighters to deploy.

Ok, just to underline this one point:



DS Officer: "We count 30 rebel ships Lord Vader. But they're so small they're evading our turbolasers!"

Vader: "We'll have to destroy them ship-to-ship. Get the crews to their fighters."


Sounds a lot like a clear order from a superior to me.

Batman wrote:

Cos Dashit wrote: I believe the reason the Rebels attacked the Death Star was because it was their last and only chance. They had no choice. Not only that, but they knew they had a Jedi helping out.

Wherever from? At best Han knew Luke had dabbled in The Force a little.

Leia, for one. Who was a major Rebel leader.

Batman wrote:

Cos Dashit wrote: At least Mon Mothma knew, and she was the leader.

Too bad she wasn't around for ANH.

Batman wrote:

Cos Dashit wrote: I would have stayed on board if I knew what Tarkin knew.

Tarkin knew that one of his subordinates (why couldn't I think of that word earlier?) considered the threat serious enough to warrant evacuation. He declined. Unless he had positive information to the contrary that was a stupid thing to do.

The subordinate did not have any positive information either. All Tarkin had was a 'maybe' paired with a 'what if' from a worrisome Imperial.

Batman wrote:

Cos Dashit wrote: IIRC, Vader said something like: "We'll have to take them down ship-to-ship." Technically, he didn't command any fighters to deploy, he was just stating the obvious. Anybody could have ordered the fighters to deploy.

We know Vader considered ship-to-ship combat. We have no evidence that anybody else did. Therefor barring evidence to the contrary it was Vader who ordered the fighters out.

How can you know for sure Vader didn't go to someone else to order the fighters to deploy? Does Vader have the authority to order out fighters; what is his official title?

Batman wrote:

Cos Dashit wrote: Given what Tarkin knew,

The extent of which you are of course now going to share,

when one of my officers suggested we should leave, I would have turned around and slapped him across the face. "I've analyzed their attack pattern. There could be a threat."

Which indicates there is a threat actually worth mentioning. Note that the officer doesn't suggest breaking off the attack and running, hes says that maybe Tarkin should evacuate. How pray tell is that going to lose them the battle?

I am Tarkin. Tarkin is in the Death Star. There is a slim-to-none chance that a fighter might maybe possibly get to an exhaust port and blow the Death Star to dust, brought to my attention by a worrisome pansy. I dismiss this, knowing the Death Star is ultimate.

That is what was going throught Tarkin's mind. If I were him in that situation, I would have done exactly as he had.

Jan Dodonna (just before BoY) - "Well, the Empire doesn't consider a small one-manned fighter to be any threat, or they'd have a tighter defense."

This shows the opinion of the Empire. Obviously, nobody expected any threat from the Rebels.

Rebel Fighter (regarding the plan of attack) - "That's impossible, even for a computer."

Even the Rebels doubted it.



And I never said an evacuation would lose them the battle, you're putting words in my mouth.

Burak Gazan wrote:

IIRC, Vader said something like: "We'll have to take them down ship-to-ship." Technically, he didn't command any fighters to deploy, he was just stating the obvious. Anybody could have ordered the fighters to deploy.

Ok, just to underline this one point:



DS Officer: "We count 30 rebel ships Lord Vader. But they're so small they're evading our turbolasers!"

Vader: "We'll have to destroy them ship-to-ship. Get the crews to their fighters."


Sounds a lot like a clear order from a superior to me.

Ahh. Okay, Vader did order the fighters to deploy. I withdraw my previous arguments.

Patrick Degan wrote:SNIPPY FOR LENGTH
Tarkin may have been a cocky SOB, but his confidence during the battle was not unreasonable by any stretch of military judgement.

Which presupposes Tarkin KNEW that would happen.
The Rebels thought they had a reasonable chance to take the DS out.
So did the subordinate who informed Tarkin that maybe he wanted to get the hell out of dodge.
Hell, even VADER did. Why in Valen's name would he have launched fighters otherwise? He didn't know Luke had Force powers at the time.

Mr CorSec wrote:As I said Tarkin knew Jack Shit about the rebel battle plan, and was so overconfident in his station that the fact there was a chance that they could succede didn't even cross his mind. If he was a good commander, even if he wouldn't evacuate he would have asked his subordinate for the information and had additional fighters deployed to cover the exhaust ports.

Tarkin really did not have to have detailed knowledge of the Rebel battle plan. There were no heavy capships at Yavin, the Rebel base could only support a limited number of fighters, and so it was rather obvious what form of attack could be expected to come up at them. The Death Star defences were alerted accordingly and acted accordingly. Only pureblind luck turned the tide of battle in the Rebellion's favour, because otherwise Tarkin's confidence had proven well-justified by the course of events.

Batman wrote:Which presupposes Tarkin KNEW that would happen.
The Rebels thought they had a reasonable chance to take the DS out.
So did the subordinate who informed Tarkin that maybe he wanted to get the hell out of dodge.
Hell, even VADER did. Why in Valen's name would he have launched fighters otherwise? He didn't know Luke had Force powers at the time.

Vader figured it out with enough time left to order a full evacuation.

Tarkin, on the other hand, had absolutely no idea.

Knife wrote:I don't think it would have been good for Tarkin if he evacuated and the DS was destroyed. According to EU, Lemsliks or whatever the fuckers name is was tortured and repeatedly killed (clone body crap that I hate) for letting such a fatal flaw in the DS be.

If Tarkin evac-ed and the DS was still destroyed, I'm pretty sure the Emperor would have killed him.

Get a face lift and join the rebellion.

Patrick Degan wrote:

Mr CorSec wrote:As I said Tarkin knew Jack Shit about the rebel battle plan, and was so overconfident in his station that the fact there was a chance that they could succede didn't even cross his mind. If he was a good commander, even if he wouldn't evacuate he would have asked his subordinate for the information and had additional fighters deployed to cover the exhaust ports.

Tarkin really did not have to have detailed knowledge of the Rebel battle plan. There were no heavy capships at Yavin, the Rebel base could only support a limited number of fighters, and so it was rather obvious what form of attack could be expected to come up at them. The Death Star defences were alerted accordingly and acted accordingly. Only pureblind luck turned the tide of battle in the Rebellion's favour, because otherwise Tarkin's confidence had proven well-justified by the course of events.

An officer who had analysed their tactics came to him and told him there was a risk. The officer had the details, Tarkin didn't. Failing to even ask the odds was where he fell down.

Batman wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:SNIPPY FOR LENGTH
Tarkin may have been a cocky SOB, but his confidence during the battle was not unreasonable by any stretch of military judgement.

Which presupposes Tarkin KNEW that would happen.

He did indeed know. The Death Star's crosshairs were lined up on Yavin-D just as the last Rebel fighters were being shot down after two failed attacks.

The Rebels thought they had a reasonable chance to take the DS out.

Immaterial. The balance of resources clearly shows it was a desperate gamble and the course of events shows the attack clearly failing.

So did the subordinate who informed Tarkin that maybe he wanted to get the hell out of dodge.

He informed Tarkin that the pattern of Rebel attack indicated a possible weakness and suggested having a personal evac shuttle standing by --not that Tarkin need to make a run for the shuttlebay NOW.

Hell, even VADER did. Why in Valen's name would he have launched fighters otherwise?

No, he saw that the antiaircraft defences were having a bit of trouble and launched fighters on his own authority to deal with the contingency.

He didn't know Luke had Force powers at the time.

"The Force is stong with this one", I believe Lord Vader said...

Patrick Degan wrote:

Mr CorSec wrote:As I said Tarkin knew Jack Shit about the rebel battle plan, and was so overconfident in his station that the fact there was a chance that they could succede didn't even cross his mind. If he was a good commander, even if he wouldn't evacuate he would have asked his subordinate for the information and had additional fighters deployed to cover the exhaust ports.

Tarkin really did not have to have detailed knowledge of the Rebel battle plan. There were no heavy capships at Yavin, the Rebel base could only support a limited number of fighters, and so it was rather obvious what form of attack could be expected to come up at them. The Death Star defences were alerted accordingly and acted accordingly. Only pureblind luck turned the tide of battle in the Rebellion's favour, because otherwise Tarkin's confidence had proven well-justified by the course of events.

His confidence in the defences proved to be his undoing, since Vader had to order the fighters to be launched. Whilst Luke nearly did end up as free floating atoms thanks to Vader, if Tarkin had even had a slight amount of sense he would have gone and looked at the information that his subordinate had got for him, it's in battle information about what your enemy is doing that can turn the tide in your favour. So my statement still stands, Tarkin was an overconfident, sadistic, power hungry, bastard.

And like all of the best, and most evil villains, he was English

PayBack wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:

Mr CorSec wrote:As I said Tarkin knew Jack Shit about the rebel battle plan, and was so overconfident in his station that the fact there was a chance that they could succede didn't even cross his mind. If he was a good commander, even if he wouldn't evacuate he would have asked his subordinate for the information and had additional fighters deployed to cover the exhaust ports.

Tarkin really did not have to have detailed knowledge of the Rebel battle plan. There were no heavy capships at Yavin, the Rebel base could only support a limited number of fighters, and so it was rather obvious what form of attack could be expected to come up at them. The Death Star defences were alerted accordingly and acted accordingly. Only pureblind luck turned the tide of battle in the Rebellion's favour, because otherwise Tarkin's confidence had proven well-justified by the course of events.

An officer who had analysed their tactics came to him and told him there was a risk. The officer had the details, Tarkin didn't. Failing to even ask the odds was where he fell down.

Just what part of "two Rebel attacks had already failed and the enemy were down to their last group of fighters (which were being shot down by Darth Vader)" is so difficult to grasp as far as figuring out in whose favour the odds were?

Mr CorSec wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:

Mr CorSec wrote:As I said Tarkin knew Jack Shit about the rebel battle plan, and was so overconfident in his station that the fact there was a chance that they could succede didn't even cross his mind. If he was a good commander, even if he wouldn't evacuate he would have asked his subordinate for the information and had additional fighters deployed to cover the exhaust ports.

Tarkin really did not have to have detailed knowledge of the Rebel battle plan. There were no heavy capships at Yavin, the Rebel base could only support a limited number of fighters, and so it was rather obvious what form of attack could be expected to come up at them. The Death Star defences were alerted accordingly and acted accordingly. Only pureblind luck turned the tide of battle in the Rebellion's favour, because otherwise Tarkin's confidence had proven well-justified by the course of events.

His confidence in the defences proved to be his undoing, since Vader had to order the fighters to be launched. Whilst Luke nearly did end up as free floating atoms thanks to Vader, if Tarkin had even had a slight amount of sense he would have gone and looked at the information that his subordinate had got for him, it's in battle information about what your enemy is doing that can turn the tide in your favour. So my statement still stands, Tarkin was an overconfident, sadistic, power hungry, bastard.

The fact that fighters were evidently readied to be scrambled at a moment's notice if needed indicates otherwise.

Cos Dashit wrote:

Batman wrote: Wherever from? At best Han knew Luke had dabbled in The Force a little.

Leia, for one. Who was a major Rebel leader.

Where from? She knew he was close to Ben, that's it. The only times Luke exhibits Force powers in ANH is the lightsaber training on the trip to Alderaan and the torpedo launch. At best she knows he wants to be a Jedi.

The subordinate did not have any positive information either.
All Tarkin had was a 'maybe' paired with a 'what if' from a worrisome Imperial.

Yeah, whatever. Because we all know people make statements like that ('we analyzed their attack pattern and there may be some danger' or thereabouts) all the time when they REALLY mean 'it is not theoretically impossible that they might succeed'. Oh please.

when one of my officers suggested we should leave, I would have turned around and slapped him across the face. "I've analyzed their attack pattern. There could be a threat."

Which indicates there is a threat actually worth mentioning. Note that the officer doesn't suggest breaking off the attack and running, hes says that maybe Tarkin should evacuate. How pray tell is that going to lose them the battle?

I am Tarkin. Tarkin is in the Death Star. There is a slim-to-none chance that a fighter might maybe possibly get to an exhaust port and blow the Death Star to dust,

And the probabilty of that is evidenced where? The rebels thought they could do it, Vader thought they could do it, Tarkin's subordinate thought they could do it so your assumption that it was improbable like there's no tommorow comes from where?

brought to my attention by a worrisome pansy. I dismiss this, knowing the Death Star is ultimate.

The knowledge of which comes from where?

That is what was going throught Tarkin's mind. If I were him in that situation, I would have done exactly as he had.

In which case you'd be an overconfident moron, too.

Jan Dodonna (just before BoY) - "Well, the Empire doesn't consider a small one-manned fighter to be any threat, or they'd have a tighter defense."
This shows the opinion of the Empire. Obviously, nobody expected any threat from the Rebels.

So? The Empire not expecting a threat does not equal the threat not existing. At best that means the Empire is just as overconfident as Tarkin is.

Rebel Fighter (regarding the plan of attack) - "That's impossible, even for a computer."
Even the Rebels doubted it.

That was Wedge, and that isn't exactly conclusive evidence. Rebel leadership thought it was doable, Luke thought it was doable (based on his womprat hunting experience no less), Tarkin's subordinate and Lord Vader thought it doable...

And I never said an evacuation would lose them the battle, you're putting words in my mouth.

No I'm not. I'm saying since the evacuation has no effect one way or another on the battle why is Tarkin so opposed to it?

Batman wrote:No he didn't. At best he assumed the chance was that low. The fact that somebody actually considered the chance worth mentioning and advocated an evacuation rather indicates that it was a reasonable chance. The rebels seemed to agree as they attempted the attack in the first place which they wouldn't have done with a billion-to-one against probability of success.

As Darth Wong theorized on this very site, it seems more likely that the rebels didn't have any choice. It would have been far more prudent to just pack up and leave, as they did on Hoth against a far lesser Imperial force.

It's more likely that they simply couldn't pack up and leave without unacceptable losses in the process. One shot in a million is better than no shot at all. Ah, and the quote is from Han Solo. "Great shot, kid. That was one in a million.", or somesuch.

Patrick Degan wrote:

He didn't know Luke had Force powers at the time.

"The Force is stong with this one", I believe Lord Vader said...

...once he was chasing Luke down the trench. NOT when he ordered the pilots to their fighters.
The rest of your points, however, do require thinking about.

Batman wrote:

Cos Dashit wrote:I am Tarkin. Tarkin is in the Death Star. There is a slim-to-none chance that a fighter might maybe possibly get to an exhaust port and blow the Death Star to dust,

And the probabilty of that is evidenced where? The rebels thought they could do it, Vader thought they could do it, Tarkin's subordinate thought they could do it so your assumption that it was improbable like there's no tommorow comes from where?

The Rebels had no choice but to hope they could pull it off. Whether or not they believed it was possible is irrelevant. They would have done what they did no matter what they believed.

Where does Vader think the Rebels can actually pull it off? All he says is to take them out with fighters because they can't destroy them with the turbolasers.

And one of Tarkin's subordinates thought they could do it. The only one. How many people were on the Death Star? Post-BoY, the Empire said the people aboard the Death Star could have been up to one billion.

The Rebel assault was more desperate than some people make it out to be. Their odds were indeed slim.

They couldn't be sure they would make it all the way to the Death Star surface without interception, and then down the trench, and to the exhaust port.. and here's the kicker. Even there, a pilot doubted that the port could be hit even with the computer operating at full effectiveness. This problem was exacerbated by the fact that the heavy jamming had further reduced the accuracy of the targeting computer.
The Rebels were simply playing the odds. They couldn't evacuate the moon in time, so that was their only hope.

Batman mentioned that they must have known about the jamming from the technical readouts, and figured they could overcome it. They couldn't, based on the novelization descriptions of the jamming effects. In addition, from the readouts, they also knew that the Death Star might launch thousands of TIE Fighters to stop their three dozen.

The Alliance was simply playing their only card, no matter how bad the chances were. Fortunately for them, the Force lets you cheat when it comes to luck.

Patrick Degan wrote:

PayBack wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote: Tarkin really did not have to have detailed knowledge of the Rebel battle plan. There were no heavy capships at Yavin, the Rebel base could only support a limited number of fighters, and so it was rather obvious what form of attack could be expected to come up at them. The Death Star defences were alerted accordingly and acted accordingly. Only pureblind luck turned the tide of battle in the Rebellion's favour, because otherwise Tarkin's confidence had proven well-justified by the course of events.

An officer who had analysed their tactics came to him and told him there was a risk. The officer had the details, Tarkin didn't. Failing to even ask the odds was where he fell down.

Just what part of "two Rebel attacks had already failed and the enemy were down to their last group of fighters (which were being shot down by Darth Vader)" is so difficult to grasp as far as figuring out in whose favour the odds were?

I can answer that with BOOM goes the Death Star.

We've analysed their attacks sir and there is a risk, should I get your ship ready?
How great a risk?
Well that last flight of ships has about a 25% change of hitting the exhaust port and blowing us up
Fuck that, I'm out of here.

Ok 25% is an exaggerated, but he has no way of knowing the chance of them hitting the port because he didn't even ask the guy doing the analysis. Why even bother with an analysis if the fight was over? They were obviously suffering from the fog of war or the falcon wouldn't have been able to sneak up on them.. you can't tell me Vader wasn't surprised.

I'm not saying the odds weren't slim, but it was dumb not to take a second to query the guy who was concerned about the risk AND who was better informed than he was.

I feel he was arrogant insofar as he didn't even ask for an explanation - he simply brushed off the concerns of his staff. If he'd asked, they could have parked a troop transport in the way and the rebels would have been toast, Luke or no Luke. He simply didn't care, and that's an oversight for which he should be blamed.

PayBack wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:

PayBack wrote: An officer who had analysed their tactics came to him and told him there was a risk. The officer had the details, Tarkin didn't. Failing to even ask the odds was where he fell down.

Just what part of "two Rebel attacks had already failed and the enemy were down to their last group of fighters (which were being shot down by Darth Vader)" is so difficult to grasp as far as figuring out in whose favour the odds were?

I can answer that with BOOM goes the Death Star.

—which is a nice, pithy little non-answer which really does not address the issue.

We've analysed their attacks sir and there is a risk, should I get your ship ready?
How great a risk?
Well that last flight of ships has about a 25% change of hitting the exhaust port and blowing us up
Fuck that, I'm out of here.

Ok 25% is an exaggerated, but he has no way of knowing the chance of them hitting the port because he didn't even ask the guy doing the analysis. Why even bother with an analysis if the fight was over? They were obviously suffering from the fog of war or the falcon wouldn't have been able to sneak up on them.. you can't tell me Vader wasn't surprised.

Not saying he wasn't. But "suffering from the fog of war"...? More likely the MF came in on a sensor blind-spot or was taken as yet another fighter or at best a gunboat which could be dealt with.

And a) it wasn't Tarkin's job to be worried about the Rebel attack —that's what his DSOs and fighter-directors are for. Tarkin's job is managing the overall campaign. Also b) the officer who brought Tarkin the report was alerting him to the possibility of personal danger to himself since he was the commanding general and a high-ranked political figure in the Empire. But again, the actual responsibility for directing the Death Star's defences is on Tarkin's subordinate commanders. Tarkin has only one job which concerns him and that's getting Yavin-D in the crosshairs for the superlaser.

I'm not saying the odds weren't slim, but it was dumb not to take a second to query the guy who was concerned about the risk AND who was better informed than he was.

See above.

Cos Dashit wrote:Ahh. Okay, Vader did order the fighters to deploy. I withdraw my previous arguments.

He did, but only his personal squadron. The thousands of TIE fighters normally aboard the Death Star and previously used for scouting out Dantooine, the remains of Alderaan, and later pursuit of the MF on Tarkin's order, stayed put. Which says something about how Tarkin viewed the rebel's chances.

Stark wrote:I feel he was arrogant insofar as he didn't even ask for an explanation - he simply brushed off the concerns of his staff. If he'd asked, they could have parked a troop transport in the way and the rebels would have been toast, Luke or no Luke. He simply didn't care, and that's an oversight for which he should be blamed.

That's a good point.. I bet Vader had wished he'd thought of it.

Patrick Degan wrote: Not saying he wasn't. But "suffering from the fog of war"...? More likely the MF came in on a sensor blind-spot or was taken as yet another fighter or at best a gunboat which could be dealt with.

And a) it wasn't Tarkin's job to be worried about the Rebel attack —that's what his DSOs and fighter-directors are for. Tarkin's job is managing the overall campaign. Also b) the officer who brought Tarkin the report was alerting him to the possibility of personal danger to himself since he was the commanding general and a high-ranked political figure in the Empire. But again, the actual responsibility for directing the Death Star's defences is on Tarkin's subordinate commanders. Tarkin has only one job which concerns him and that's getting Yavin-D in the crosshairs for the superlaser.

I'm not saying the odds weren't slim, but it was dumb not to take a second to query the guy who was concerned about the risk AND who was better informed than he was.

See above.

wtf? Sure, defending the DS was the job of subordinates, but that still doesn't excuse not even asking what the risk is after being informed of one by someone who had the facts. Ignoring someone more knowledgable than you is either arrogant or dumb (or both). Hell if my life was on the line I certainly wouldn't think.. meh not my job. Talk about passing the buck.

PayBack wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote: Not saying he wasn't. But "suffering from the fog of war"...? More likely the MF came in on a sensor blind-spot or was taken as yet another fighter or at best a gunboat which could be dealt with.

And a) it wasn't Tarkin's job to be worried about the Rebel attack —that's what his DSOs and fighter-directors are for. Tarkin's job is managing the overall campaign. Also b) the officer who brought Tarkin the report was alerting him to the possibility of personal danger to himself since he was the commanding general and a high-ranked political figure in the Empire. But again, the actual responsibility for directing the Death Star's defences is on Tarkin's subordinate commanders. Tarkin has only one job which concerns him and that's getting Yavin-D in the crosshairs for the superlaser.

I'm not saying the odds weren't slim, but it was dumb not to take a second to query the guy who was concerned about the risk AND who was better informed than he was.

See above.

wtf? Sure, defending the DS was the job of subordinates, but that still doesn't excuse not even asking what the risk is after being informed of one by someone who had the facts. Ignoring someone more knowledgable than you is either arrogant or dumb (or both). Hell if my life was on the line I certainly wouldn't think.. meh not my job. Talk about passing the buck.

That is not "passing the buck". The aide gave Tarkin no reason to fundamentally alter his strategy or his defensive preparations —saying nothing more than "there is a risk" when the information screens were telling him that his enemies numbered less than 50 snub-fighters and there was no other force coming at him doesn't add up to "sudden massive risk requiring immediate attention and alteration of plan".

Lukedanieljames wrote:What more COULD he have done besides run, which have been stupid in my opinion? He can't change the fact that the exhaust port was a weakness, he isn' going to turn around, infact he even raised shields as Wedge I believe it was said they were bouncing through the stations field.

Anyway, all just my opinion,

others?

Um, how about scramble some of the thousands of TIE fighters at minimum he had available as soon as the Rebel fighters showed up? I don't buy this "oh, they weren't a threat, so why bother?" bullshit. What did they have to lose by scrambling fighters? It's not like they're that bothered by potentially losing pilots, since they were happy to send 4 pilots to die in a half-assed attempt to chase down Milennium Falcon which was supposed to fail.

At any rate, they should have had fighters, and for that matter, heavier ships up to blockade Yavin in case the Rebels tried to escape. It's not like that would be a novel new tactic for the Empire--they do the exact same thing when they undertake a Base Delta Zero.