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Crown wrote: Yes, I bloody well can. You see, unlike the ridiculous round of rock-paper-scissors some people seem to be playing in this thread, this scene - while not 'number' quantifiable - allows us to quantify their relative raw Force power at that point in time. By any rational observer the only conclusion that can be drawn is that they are evenly matched.

Now, if there is some kind of rationalisation as to why Anakin didn't blow Obi-Wan away; he really didn't want to, he was holding back, he was exhausted, he had a cold, etc. bring it to the table. Otherwise, the highest order of canon shows us that they are evenly matched.

No, it doesn't. Not only is it an absurd concept, as I raised the last time the force push was brought up, who recovers quicker when they're both blown across the room? Anakin, leaping in a force assisted charge across the room in a split second while Obi-Wan barely has enough time to recover and defend himself. In other words, the evidence is it cost Obi-Wan more. Anakin, as we know from the novel, has tremendous reserves of force energy which neither Dooku nor Obi-Wan could hope to match. Further, we don't know the exact "mechanics" of how two opposing force pushes even work.

This outweighs writer's intent, EU say-so and character heresay. You know this.

I never appealed to writer's intent, nor does your interpretation overrule the EU or the statement of character's- which is most certainly not hearsay, by the legal definition

True. I did say that Dooku sucker punched Obi-Wan during their duels, you have yet to refute that in terms of 'just throwing energy around' Dooku was in anyway, shape or form superior to Obi-Wan.

Dooku didn't sucker punch Obi-Wan in AotC. Obi-Wan lost fair and square. And if Obi-Wan was as powerful as Anakin, don't you think that little force choke trick wouldn't have worked? Obviously, Obi-Wan did not see it coming. And you just said "true", but you missed the part about how force energy is an intergral part of when force users fight. They're using it constantly. Further- unlike Yoda, Obi-Wan couldn't catch lightning in his hand and shoot it back- Dooku could deflect his own lightning with his palm easily.

The Point; .

Empty space.

Your head; 8^)

The analogy is that a rock-paper-scissors 'analysis' is bollocks. As any sporting fan will tell you. We should be focusing on quantifiable evidence, not he beat so-so, so he should be able to beat so-so, etc.

No, you're missing the point. The only reason you have for saying x sporting team is better than y sporting team even though y beat x, therefore who-beat-who is bollocks, is because you have reason to believe x is better than y apart from that one loss, correct? So I say again, what reason do you have to believe that Obi-Wan is better than Dooku? He lost every time.

'Stalked'

Dude, Vader had a one in three chance to guess as to which door Obi-Wan was going to approach the MF. I'd hardly call that 'stalked'. You wanna talk stalking, check out Obi-Wan Kenobi the super sneak in AotC. Above the head of the big bad Darth Tyranus, he could spit on him and get away with it.

I'm referencing the novel here. It was hardly a question of hanging around the hangar.

So they atrophied, right?

Possibly, or just a joke compared to Vader's after 19 years of Sith training- it's "weak", not "weakened compared to". But not through any purposeful negligence on Obi-Wan's part in any event.

Yes, due to Vader's posse. Oooh, real big drawing card there for Vader.

Not due to his posse. The Stormtroopers meant that Obi-Wan couldn't escape or withdraw- his favorite tactic when fighting Vader as we know. As it is, the maturity of Vader's mind compared to Mustafar already surprised him when they started fighting (again, novelization) and there's no convenient terrain or mindless rage to take advantage of this time. In that context, his quick surrender to the inevitable is quite understandable.

You can't have it both ways Vymp. You can't have his powers being 'weak' and then turning around and saying; but they obviously were the same level as of RotS (with out bothering to prove as such) when it is convenient for you.

Yes, because it seems like you're saying Obi-Wan let his powers weaken to such a level from neglect or some such, thereby excusing his inability to defeat Vader. I never said they were the same level, he's no spring chicken, but the evidence is that old Jedi can still fight incredibly effectively.

Any more ridiculous than Darth 'psychological basket case' Vader? The opening book of The Last Jedi series makes it pretty obvious that in the one year span between RotS and the book, Obi-Wan had already let his powers atrophy a little, and Qui-Gon refused to teach him the secret of the disappearing into the Force trick since Obi-Wan was a basked case of guilt, and he really, really would have like to 'move on'. IIRC

Except he learnt it.

Silly or not, it doesn't change the fact that Vader had a tough time against a 'weak' 'old man' Kenobi and only won because said 'weak' 'old man' let him win.

And as I've said before, if I surrender to someone who's going to kick my ass anyway, the rejoinder "I let you win" is nothing but crap. And Vader didn't have a tough time. Short of Palpatine skewering the B-team in his office (apart from Windu), that fight was ridiculously short. I don't see why you find Vader's inability to put Obi-Wan away in a matter of seconds so damning.

Stravo wrote:In terms of the Vader force wall on Kenobi point I just have several examples to call bullshit on that

Considering that Anakin's use of the force to restrict Dooku's movement was called by Dooku an "unusual skill" during their duel, it's a preferred tactic of Anakin, not a standard force power that anyone would use whenever. So that cancels out any appeals to fights not involving Anakin from the get go. And even if it didn't, simply because it's not always used in a fight doesn't mean it would never be used. We know it exists. Canon novelization.

Dooku vs Obi Wan/Anakin part 1 - The novelization states that force walls were in use during these duels but Anakin a padawan was not slowed down from the visuals in the films and in fact performs better than his master in the duel on Geonosis.

Erm- that's because Anakin was the one using the power, not Dooku.

Anakin v. Obi Wan - not a sign of force walls or any of this slowing down impeding stuff, in fact at one point in the duel they flash their blades inches form each other, twirling them and no sign at all that their struggling against any kind of impediment. Lucas' commentary, novelization, etc all point to Anakin utterly dominating that duel yet Obi Wan is NOTHING like he was on the DS.

Anakin may have not used it simply because he didn't have the finesse to keep it up for long. He tried it on Dooku but he was burning up so much force energy that he couldn't maintain his momentum. The result was Dooku easily cutting his arm off, with a considerable delay by Anakin when we'd expect him to be able to defend himself in such a relatively long period of time. After 19 years of being a Sith and in general being a far more cold and mature mind, as well as adapting your style since (heck, Anakin's style obviously changed in between AotC and RotS, and even during RotS when he went to the dark side!), it's not unreasonable to propose that he went back to it.

we can argue that these are two tired old men crossing blades one last time, one too slow and crippled to take advanatge of the older man's weakness and atrophied skills. A view supported by the author of the series BTW.

I know which the Vader fanboys will chose.

Yes, I choose the one that makes sense regarding the evidence of the movies, not out-of-universe bullshit post-hoc rationalizations for why Vader and Obi-Wan don't move assissted by Nic Gillard choreography from Lucas. Darth Vader isn't slow or crippled. David Prowse was a fucking body builder, and he doesn't look crippled to me when he's doing anything. If that makes me a Vader fanboy, so be it, but you'll also notice that this interpretation saves Obi-Wan from the embarassment of being an ineffective tired old man even though a man almost thirty years his senior makes it look like he's standing still (Dooku) in the prequels. Heck, you do know that Obi-Wan was approximately Qui-Gon's age in ANH, right?

I will always favour the explanation that doesn't fuck up the gravitas of a fight due to stupid shit like "old man and a cripple" which is contradicted by both the prequels and what we can see with our own two eyes. My rationalization makes sense. Old man and a cripple doesn't.

Stravo wrote:
Mace v. Palpatine - No slowing down of movement or ability, Palpatine is going around using Ataru for fuck's sake in some parts of the duel and certainly seems more spry than Obi Wan at the DS OR Qui Gon on Naboo. You can claim "but but Palpatine is so much more powerful so he couldn't be slowed down." Really? So why wasn't Mace slowed down a whit and in fact defeated Palpatine?

? I would hardly characterise the Mace/Sidious duel as quick compared to Yoda/Sidious, for example.

Vympel wrote:No, it doesn't. Not only is it an absurd concept, as I raised the last time the force push was brought up, who recovers quicker when they're both blown across the room? Anakin, leaping in a force assisted charge across the room in a split second while Obi-Wan barely has enough time to recover and defend himself. In other words, the evidence is it cost Obi-Wan more. Anakin, as we know from the novel, has tremendous reserves of force energy which neither Dooku nor Obi-Wan could hope to match. Further, we don't know the exact "mechanics" of how two opposing force pushes even work.

It is not an 'absurd concept', we have two characters arm wresteling (for want of a better term) and they both 'pop' at the same time. One did not achieve dominance over the other - as we would have expected if one character held such a dominance over the other. Anakin recovering faster can be explained due to his obvious advantage in age and physical fitness (something which does play a role for Jedi).

Vympel wrote:Further, we don't know the exact "mechanics" of how two opposing force pushes even work.

Appeal to Ignorance falacy. Just because we don't know 'the exact "mechanics"' doesn't bar us from making educated guesses on what happened based on logic and observation. It is obvious that both combatants were experiencing physical stress and exertion during their Force pushing contest - something that is consistant with when a Force user is using the Force (Yoda TESB, AotC, etc).

It also stands to reason that if one combatant could have over powered the other in this contest they would have.

Due to the fact that neither did, then it also is a fair conclusion that the combatants were evenly matched.

Vympel wrote:I never appealed to writer's intent, nor does your interpretation overrule the EU or the statement of character's- which is most certainly not hearsay, by the legal definition

You're right, you haven't in this thread, but I think it's fair to say that you have in others. And as you well know EU or character statements, must and always take a back seat to observable facts shown in the movies. You cling to it being my 'interpretation', and yet have shown no logical or analytical flaw in my hypothesis other than to whine that it doesn't agree with the EU or nebulous comments made by the show's characters.

Vympel wrote:Dooku didn't sucker punch Obi-Wan in AotC.

I said duels dude. It is clear that I was refering to the RotS one.

Vympel wrote:Obi-Wan lost fair and square. And if Obi-Wan was as powerful as Anakin, don't you think that little force choke trick wouldn't have worked? Obviously, Obi-Wan did not see it coming. And you just said "true", but you missed the part about how force energy is an intergral part of when force users fight. They're using it constantly.

Let me point out that later in this very thread you will say that Anakin's use of Force walls is an "unusual skill", and that as far as I'm aware the novelisation doesn't state that any such thing was happening between Dooku and Obi-Wan.

Also, in the RotS novelisation shows Obi-Wan using little Force tricks on Anakin, and he knew that he could get away with it only once - since Anakin wouldn't be waiting for it - which if we do assume that Anakin is more powerful than Obi-Wan, then using your arguement in the quote above, Obi-Wan shouldn't have been able to do that by default.

Vympel wrote:Further- unlike Yoda, Obi-Wan couldn't catch lightning in his hand and shoot it back- Dooku could deflect his own lightning with his palm easily.

Tough cookies. I never claimed that Obi-Wan could or couldn't deflect Sith Lightning with his bare hands like Yoda, I only pointed out that when Dooku tried to go down the 'pure Force power intimidation' routine Obi-Wan wasn't even phased, and Dooku had to resort to his lightsabre. Much like he did with Yoda.

Vympel wrote:No, you're missing the point. The only reason you have for saying x sporting team is better than y sporting team even though y beat x, therefore who-beat-who is bollocks, is because you have reason to believe x is better than y apart from that one loss, correct? So I say again, what reason do you have to believe that Obi-Wan is better than Dooku? He lost every time.

No. Jesus. My point, which I stated twice in my reply is that rock-paper-scissors is a fucking stupid way to quantify ANYTHING.

Vympel wrote:I'm referencing the novel here. It was hardly a question of hanging around the hangar.

I don't have the novel, I don't remember to what you refer. Please provide a quote.

Vympel wrote:Possibly, or just a joke compared to Vader's after 19 years of Sith training- it's "weak", not "weakened compared to". But not through any purposeful negligence on Obi-Wan's part in any event.

'The Last Jedi' series shows that Obi-Wan's powers were already atrophing only one year after RotS. Through a combination of lack of use and disillusionment. And if we are going to go with character quotes of Vader's 19 years of Sith training (and yet still wetting his pants in front of the Emperor), then I choose Obi-Wan's fork appreaciating food comment.

Vympel wrote:Not due to his posse. The Stormtroopers meant that Obi-Wan couldn't escape or withdraw- his favorite tactic when fighting Vader as we know. As it is, the maturity of Vader's mind compared to Mustafar already surprised him when they started fighting (again, novelization) and there's no convenient terrain or mindless rage to take advantage of this time. In that context, his quick surrender to the inevitable is quite understandable.

Dude; 'inevitable'. Your on crack, Obi-Wan told Vader flat out 'if my blade finds its mark' and then just changed his mind.

Vympel wrote:Yes, because it seems like you're saying Obi-Wan let his powers weaken to such a level from neglect or some such, thereby excusing his inability to defeat Vader. I never said they were the same level, he's no spring chicken, but the evidence is that old Jedi can still fight incredibly effectively.

Wait. I'm confused. What are we talking about?

Vympel wrote:Except he learnt it.

Yeah, and ... ? You said that it was 'silly' and 'ridiculous', I pointed out EU evidence which shows it has precedance - to which you obviously weren't aware - to show I'm not making this shit up.

Vympel wrote:And as I've said before, if I surrender to someone who's going to kick my ass anyway, the rejoinder "I let you win" is nothing but crap.

There is fuck all evidence that I have seen that tells us that Vader would have won that fight due to him being superior. The novelisation (according to FOG3) tells us that Obi-Wan only gave up the ghost after he saw the stormtroopers incircle and trap him and not before. While even if they were absent, the best thing Obi-Wan might have been able to do was 'escape or withdraw' (his favourite tactic against Vader ) then it still isn't a win for Vader since he still couldn't kill his old master.

Vympel wrote:And Vader didn't have a tough time.

Bullshit. Look at his body language during the fight. Cautious, edgy. He was half lost, and more than a little apprehensive of Obi-Wan, who by the way was having such a grand old time, he was even twirling around turning his back to Vader, showing his contempt for him and his 'power'.

Vympel wrote:Short of Palpatine skewering the B-team in his office (apart from Windu), that fight was ridiculously short. I don't see why you find Vader's inability to put Obi-Wan away in a matter of seconds so damning.

The fight was short BECAUSE OBI-WAN GAVE UP ... come on. Honestly, you couldn't see that was going to be my reply.


By-the-by, I won't be able to reply to this for a looooong time.

Crown wrote: It is not an 'absurd concept', we have two characters arm wresteling (for want of a better term) and they both 'pop' at the same time. One did not achieve dominance over the other - as we would have expected if one character held such a dominance over the other. Anakin recovering faster can be explained due to his obvious advantage in age and physical fitness (something which does play a role for Jedi).

Using it to argue that they're equal in force power is what is absurd- as for Anakin recovering faster due to age and physical fitness, I'm more concerned with his force leap across the room ala AotC, which is perfectly in line with what we know about his huge reserves of force power.

Appeal to Ignorance falacy. Just because we don't know 'the exact "mechanics"' doesn't bar us from making educated guesses on what happened based on logic and observation. It is obvious that both combatants were experiencing physical stress and exertion during their Force pushing contest - something that is consistant with when a Force user is using the Force (Yoda TESB, AotC, etc).

It also stands to reason that if one combatant could have over powered the other in this contest they would have.

I'm referring to the mechanics in the sense that we don't know if an opposing force push can be "blocked" with ones own- think about it- if they were both evenly matched, then why did anything happen at all? Shouldn't nothing have happened?

You're right, you haven't in this thread, but I think it's fair to say that you have in others.

When called for yes- like when you referenced Bob Brown

And as you well know EU or character statements, must and always take a back seat to observable facts shown in the movies. You cling to it being my 'interpretation', and yet have shown no logical or analytical flaw in my hypothesis other than to whine that it doesn't agree with the EU or nebulous comments made by the show's characters.

Sorry, but not agreeing with EU- and more importantly, the entire point of the six movies (re: Anakin's power, his status as the Chosen One, etc) is quite a good criticism, as is your continued inability to come up with a good explanation for why Obi-Wan got consistently ass-whupped by Count Dooku. Heck, Anakin lasted longer than him in the fight in AotC, and he was a mere Padawan with little self-control. Contending that this force push "observable fact" somehow trumps the fact that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi of the time (a stated fact in the RotS novel, I'll remind you) is still absurd.

I said duels dude. It is clear that I was refering to the RotS one.

And I was referring to both.

Let me point out that later in this very thread you will say that Anakin's use of Force walls is an "unusual skill", and that as far as I'm aware the novelisation doesn't state that any such thing was happening between Dooku and Obi-Wan.

So?

Also, in the RotS novelisation shows Obi-Wan using little Force tricks on Anakin, and he knew that he could get away with it only once - since Anakin wouldn't be waiting for it - which if we do assume that Anakin is more powerful than Obi-Wan, then using your arguement in the quote above, Obi-Wan shouldn't have been able to do that by default.

That would be a force trick, singular, i.e. getting his droid fingers to spring open to disarm him. Given Anakin's highly agitated and arrogant state, I'm not surprised he didn't see it coming, just like he deluded himself into thinking he could jump at Obi-Wan from low ground.

Tough cookies. I never claimed that Obi-Wan could or couldn't deflect Sith Lightning with his bare hands like Yoda, I only pointed out that when Dooku tried to go down the 'pure Force power intimidation' routine Obi-Wan wasn't even phased, and Dooku had to resort to his lightsabre. Much like he did with Yoda.

It's tough cookies for your argument, obviously. Obi-Wan is not powerful enough to duplicate Dooku's feat. Ergo, Dooku is more powerful. I don't see why you persist in this, it's a completely untenable position. You really don't have a single fact to support your contention that Obi-Wan is a match for Dooku. He isn't. He lost every time, and has demonstrably weaker force abilities.

No. Jesus. My point, which I stated twice in my reply is that rock-paper-scissors is a fucking stupid way to quantify ANYTHING

No, it isn't. It's perfectly legitimate. I've pointed out the flaw in your analogy multiple times, and you haven't addressed it. You're intent on a force push in RotS being an observable fact, but when the observable fact of Obi-Wan being a complete loser against Dooku both times is raised ...

I don't have the novel, I don't remember to what you refer. Please provide a quote.

Vader detects Obi-Wan easily- he goes off hunting for him quite early on. Obi-Wan, by contrast, doesn't have a clue anything's amiss until Vader's metres away:

Ben sensed something directly ahead and slowed cautiously. It had a most familiar feel to it, a half-remembered mental odor he could not quite place.

Then the figure stepped out in front of him, blocking his entry to the hangar not five meters away. The outline and size of the figure completed the momentary puzzle. It was the maturity of the mind he had sensed that had temporarily confused him.

'The Last Jedi' series shows that Obi-Wan's powers were already atrophing only one year after RotS. Through a combination of lack of use and disillusionment. And if we are going to go with character quotes of Vader's 19 years of Sith training (and yet still wetting his pants in front of the Emperor), then I choose Obi-Wan's fork appreaciating food comment.

What does his Sith training have to do with his attitude towards his Master? That's part of the Sith relationship. Unless you're going to start arguing that Obi-Wan could've taken the Emperor too?

Dude; 'inevitable'. Your on crack, Obi-Wan told Vader flat out 'if my blade finds its mark' and then just changed his mind.

Yes, inevitable. I can't believe you're seriously proposing that Obi-Wan had a chance against Vader, yet decided "hey, wouldn't it be better if I just let myself get bisected".

Wait. I'm confused. What are we talking about?

Erm- buggered if I know.

Yeah, and ... ? You said that it was 'silly' and 'ridiculous', I pointed out EU evidence which shows it has precedance - to which you obviously weren't aware - to show I'm not making this shit up.

Yeah, and .... therefore he obviously got over it and took on Qui-Gon's training.

There is fuck all evidence that I have seen that tells us that Vader would have won that fight due to him being superior.

You mean apart from the fact that Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One, the most powerful Jedi of his time, the only one whom the Emperor can thinks can destroy him (and who makes it clear that his problems are psychological more than physical) etc. Really, this is sad. Not only does it ignore the above facts, it also proposes that Obi-Wan gave up his chance to destroy a Dark Lord of the Sith for no good reason, and got himself killed. That's unbelievably dumb.

The novelisation (according to FOG3) tells us that Obi-Wan only gave up the ghost after he saw the stormtroopers incircle and trap him and not before.

Since the novelization doesn't have Obi-Wan giving up, but being beaten straight up, I fail to see how the novelization can state such a thing.

While even if they were absent, the best thing Obi-Wan might have been able to do was 'escape or withdraw' (his favourite tactic against Vader ) then it still isn't a win for Vader since he still couldn't kill his old master.

So? If a guy runs away from a fight he's sure to lose, he's the loser. In any event, his surrender shows quite obviously he knew he didn't stand a chance.

Bullshit. Look at his body language during the fight. Cautious, edgy. He was half lost, and more than a little apprehensive of Obi-Wan, who by the way was having such a grand old time, he was even twirling around turning his back to Vader, showing his contempt for him and his 'power'.

Just who was getting thrown about every which way again? Not Vader. Heck, point to one single incident you can think of when Vader is in trouble. Just one.

The fight was short BECAUSE OBI-WAN GAVE UP ... come on. Honestly, you couldn't see that was going to be my reply.

And it's a meaningless reply. You harp about Darth Vader not killing Obi-Wan before he gave up- in other words, not killing him before the end of one of the shortest fights in the canon.

I'd like to point out, that Kenobi was in retreat-mode (again) when he and Vader reached the hangar in ANH.

Kenobi was out-classed by Maul and only won, because Maul's arrogance got the better of him.

Against Dooku he lost time and again.

In ROTS he was constantly retreating and would have lost, if he wouldn't have been able to use the terrain to his advantage and Anakin - like Maul - falling prey to his own arrogance.


Rank of Jedi/Sith as of ROTS:

Force-Power

Palpatine (Anakin never developed his full potential)
Anakin
Yoda
Dooku
Mace
Obi-Wan

Lightsaber:

Anakin
Mace
Yoda
Palpatine (who probably hadn't touched a lightsaber for decades at this point, note that he also lost his lightsaber in his fight against Yoda)
Dooku
Obi-Wan

Brain:

Palpatine
Obi-Wan
Yoda
Anakin
Mace
Yoda

2000AD wrote:

Elfdart wrote: "But Anakin bodyslammed Palpatine when he was distracted!" to which I respond "Tough titty -excuses are for losers!"

Damnit, now whenever i watch RotJ i'm going to be mentally saying "Superslam!!!" when that happens, just like "Stop TKing you fag!!!1!" in RotS

As Jesse Ventura used to say: "Win if you can; lose if you must -BUT ALWAYS CHEAT!"

I think people often ignore the principle of Any Given Sunday. That is, if the opponents are anywhere near each other in ability, there's a good chance the "superior" one can not only lose, but get his ass kicked hard. Maybe Palpatine was that much better than Mace Windu. It doesn't matter because Mace whipped him anyway. Ditto for Obi-Wan vs. Anakin. This isn't paper-scissors-rock where one automatically trumps the other. Add in luck and The Force, and maybe Qui-Gon Jinn could have whipped any of them. I'd rather be lucky than good.

As for the ANH duel showing Kenobi and Vader being weak old has-beens, I say BULLSHIT! The lack of flailing and prancing about could simply reflect the maturity of the combatants who know each other very well and don't want to be the one who fucks up, makes a mistake and gets killed. So they keep everything under control (as much as possible) and directly in front of them. It's the way Mace beat Palpatine. It's classic rope-a-dope or small ball and it works.

FTeik wrote: Brain:

Palpatine
Obi-Wan
Yoda
Anakin
Mace
Yoda

Not that I agree with the rest of your reasoning, but you put Anakin above Yoda and Mace in the brains category? They don't come much more powerful than Anakin, but they sure do come smarter.

(Note: I observe that you put Yoda in there twice, and assume that you meant him to be in the third position, as opposed to the last.)

FTeik wrote:Kenobi was out-classed by Maul and only won, because Maul's arrogance got the better of him.

I disagree. Obi-Wan won because he tapped into the Dark Side after watching his Master get impaled by Maul. Also, Maul did not become arrogant after the fight; when Obi-Wan started to 'bring it' he went on the defensive, this implies that he was being careful and knew when to stop the offense.

FTeik wrote:In ROTS he was constantly retreating and would have lost, if he wouldn't have been able to use the terrain to his advantage and Anakin - like Maul - falling prey to his own arrogance.

Are you referring to the film? If you are, I am going to have to ask for some examples here.

FTeik wrote:Rank of Jedi/Sith as of ROTS:

Force-Power

Palpatine (Anakin never developed his full potential)
Anakin
Yoda
Dooku
Mace
Obi-Wan

I agree, except for Mace's position. He was more of a duelist, and Obi-Wan was close to equaling Anakin in RotS (refering to the Force-push in the control room on Mustafar).

FTeik wrote:Lightsaber:

Anakin
Mace
Yoda
Palpatine (who probably hadn't touched a lightsaber for decades at this point, note that he also lost his lightsaber in his fight against Yoda)
Dooku
Obi-Wan

Stravo wrote:We're talking about Thunderdome like situation - two man enter one man leave type combat who comes out on top using lightsaber dueling and force using abilty combined.

I disagree. Obi-Wan was the Master of Soresu, as acknowledged by Mace Windu. Even when he used Ataru in his fight with Anakin, he definately held his own (actually he won). He might not have had the upper hand, but it was definitely an incredible display.

Count Dooku's position is just ludicrous. He practiced Makashi, which was the best form for fighting other lightsabre-wielders (look above, at Stavo's quote). As it involves many parries and thrusts, it taxes even best duelists if they are using the more circular forms of lightsabre combat. He easily dispatched Anakin, and took down Obi-Wan. Also, in the novelization of AotC, it said he did it while he was barely moving around. He just stood still and dealed the pain. Unfortunately, I do not own a copy of the novelization, but if anybody does, quotes would be greatly appreciated.

My list (in terms of lightsabre combat):

Anakin
Dooku
Obi-Wan
Palpatine
Yoda
Mace

FTeik wrote:Brain:

Palpatine
Obi-Wan
Yoda
Anakin
Mace
Yoda

Almost. Palpatine was indeed the smartest. My list:

Palpatine
Yoda
Mace
Obi-Wan
Anakin

And I'll tell you why.

Obi-Wan is lower because of the following: When Yoda and himself were looking around in the Jedi Temple, Yoda seemed to be in the know and Obi-Wan just plain clueless. "If into the holo-recordings you go, only pain you will find." (sorry if I butchered it.) Yoda knew who did it. Obi-Wan had no idea. And it was Yoda who realized a Jedi killed some of the younglings. And Obi-Wan was all like, "But who?"

Mace pierced the shroud of the Dark Side, something even Yoda failed to do.

Anakin made nothing but mistakes all in Episode III. He definitely let his feelings shroud his thinking.

Vympel wrote:Using it to argue that they're equal in force power is what is absurd-

Explain why, other than it annoying you.

Vympel wrote:as for Anakin recovering faster due to age and physical fitness, I'm more concerned with his force leap across the room ala AotC, which is perfectly in line with what we know about his huge reserves of force power.

'Reserve' or physical fitness, regardless he couldn't over power Obi-Wan.

Vympel wrote:I'm referring to the mechanics in the sense that we don't know if an opposing force push can be "blocked" with ones own- think about it- if they were both evenly matched, then why did anything happen at all? Shouldn't nothing have happened?

No, not really. Also in RotS we had the Yoda and Sidious blow out, in this instance one was pumping a huge reservior at the other, and all the other one was doing it was 'holding' and channeling back ... until they both 'popped'. This one has nice visuals to help you aswell.

Vympel wrote:When called for yes- like when you referenced Bob Brown

Yes, in which you engaged with Ad Homnien and Appeal to Motive fallacies ...

Vympel wrote:Sorry,

Don't be.

Vympel wrote:but not agreeing with EU- and more importantly, the entire point of the six movies (re: Anakin's power, his status as the Chosen One, etc) is quite a good criticism,

No it is a bollocks critisism. If it were, lets throw out pretty much 90% of the post RotJ EU - specifically DE, hell now that I think about it that wouldn't be a bad thing.

Vympel wrote:as is your continued inability to come up with a good explanation for why Obi-Wan got consistently ass-whupped by Count Dooku. Heck, Anakin lasted longer than him in the fight in AotC, and he was a mere Padawan with little self-control. Contending that this force push "observable fact" somehow trumps the fact that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi of the time (a stated fact in the RotS novel, I'll remind you) is still absurd.

The movie overides the novel, and Anakin is said to only have the potential to be the most powerful Jedi/Sith of the era;

Darth Sidious wrote:Darth Vader will become more powerful than both of us!

Vympel wrote:So?

So was Dooku using this skill on Obi-Wan during their duels?

Vympel wrote:That would be a force trick, singular, i.e. getting his droid fingers to spring open to disarm him. Given Anakin's highly agitated and arrogant state, I'm not surprised he didn't see it coming, just like he deluded himself into thinking he could jump at Obi-Wan from low ground.

What's your point? Your arguement was that for Dooku to use a force trick (singular) - as he did in the RotS duel - then he must be by default more powerful than Obi-Wan. So what's good for goose is good for the gander right?

Vympel wrote:It's tough cookies for your argument, obviously. Obi-Wan is not powerful enough to duplicate Dooku's feat. Ergo, Dooku is more powerful. I don't see why you persist in this, it's a completely untenable position.

Are you on crack? Seriously. The number of times Obi-Wan has been zapped with Sith Lightning = 1. He was unphased. We don't know whether or not he could do it with his bare hands - as he has never been in a position to try it.

Vympel wrote:You really don't have a single fact to support your contention that Obi-Wan is a match for Dooku. He isn't. He lost every time, and has demonstrably weaker force abilities.

Bull. Fucking. Shit. There has been zero fucking quantifiable analysis done on either Dooku or Obi-Wan's Force abilities, all we can say for certain is that Dooku can ass whoop him in lightsabre combat.

Vympel wrote:No, it isn't. It's perfectly legitimate.

A>D, D>OW ergo A>OW ... oops, I seem to remember one combatant (Anakin) having his legs and arm chopped off and the other, not so much... hmmmm.

Vympel wrote:I've pointed out the flaw in your analogy multiple times, and you haven't addressed it. You're intent on a force push in RotS being an observable fact, but when the observable fact of Obi-Wan being a complete loser against Dooku both times is raised ...

... what? I say Dooku didn't school Obi-Wan? I never claimed that Dooku can't, nor hasn't, beaten Obi-Wan. All of said is that all we can say for certain is that Dooku is demonstrably the better duelist, but there has been little evidence that he is also the stronger Force user.

Vympel wrote:Vader detects Obi-Wan easily

If by easily you mean standing right outside the ship he is hiding in and scratches his head like he wants to fart, then yes I agree. Please go on.

Vympel wrote:- he goes off hunting for him quite early on. Obi-Wan, by contrast, doesn't have a clue anything's amiss until Vader's metres away:

Ben sensed something directly ahead and slowed cautiously. It had a most familiar feel to it, a half-remembered mental odor he could not quite place.

Then the figure stepped out in front of him, blocking his entry to the hangar not five meters away. The outline and size of the figure completed the momentary puzzle. It was the maturity of the mind he had sensed that had temporarily confused him.

And this is again 'stalked', how? Now Obi-Wan being directly above Darth Tyranus with a clear line of sight without Darth Tyranus being any the wiser, what does this mean?

Vympel wrote:What does his Sith training have to do with his attitude towards his Master? That's part of the Sith relationship. Unless you're going to start arguing that Obi-Wan could've taken the Emperor too?

At the end of RotS (at which point he had been a Sith for all of two minutes) he was ready to overthrow the Emperor ... 19 years later with all of that 'Sith training' he needed the help of a half trained boy. Fill in the gaps.

Vympel wrote:Yes, inevitable. I can't believe you're seriously proposing that Obi-Wan had a chance against Vader, yet decided "hey, wouldn't it be better if I just let myself get bisected".

You're right. Escape wasn't his plan.

Vympel wrote:Yeah, and .... therefore he obviously got over it and took on Qui-Gon's training.

Please remember that the atrophy point was tied into the above aswell.

Vympel wrote:You mean apart from the fact that Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One, the most powerful Jedi of his time, the only one whom the Emperor can thinks can destroy him

What's this; an Appeal to Label fallacy?

Vympel wrote:(and who makes it clear that his problems are psychological more than physical) etc. Really, this is sad. Not only does it ignore the above facts, it also proposes that Obi-Wan gave up his chance to destroy a Dark Lord of the Sith for no good reason, and got himself killed. That's unbelievably dumb.

True it is, but you seem to mistake 'zero evidence for a Vader win' to automatically mean '100% of Obi-Wan' win. While I can see how this strawman got erected - and can't really blame you - I'd appreciate it all the same if you didn't use it. Thanks.

Vympel wrote:Since the novelization doesn't have Obi-Wan giving up, but being beaten straight up, I fail to see how the novelization can state such a thing.

What the?

Vympel wrote:So? If a guy runs away from a fight he's sure to lose, he's the loser. In any event, his surrender shows quite obviously he knew he didn't stand a chance.

Yes. Against Vader and his posse.

Vympel wrote:Just who was getting thrown about every which way again? Not Vader. Heck, point to one single incident you can think of when Vader is in trouble. Just one.

'Every which way'?

Vympel wrote:And it's a meaningless reply.

Actually it's not.

Vympel wrote:You harp about Darth Vader not killing Obi-Wan before he gave up- in other words, not killing him before the end of one of the shortest fights in the canon.

Vader's duel against Luke in TESB was longer, are we to assume then that Vader was in mortal danger against Luke 99% of the time, but only managed to 'beat him' in the last minute? Or is time a really shitty and arbitrary factor when one combatant is just having shit's and giggles with the other?

If the latter, then isn't it also reasonable to assume that time is a shitty and arbitrary factor when one combatant just gives up for no reason at all? Oh I'm sorry, I forget, there was a reason. Vader's posse had him surrounded.

Cos Dashit wrote:

FTeik wrote:Kenobi was out-classed by Maul and only won, because Maul's arrogance got the better of him.

I disagree. Obi-Wan won because he tapped into the Dark Side after watching his Master get impaled by Maul. Also, Maul did not become arrogant after the fight; when Obi-Wan started to 'bring it' he went on the defensive, this implies that he was being careful and knew when to stop the offense.

Remember what happened after Maul used the Force to push Obi-Wan into that shaft? He didn't finish Obi-Wan off, but rather toyed with him with all those sparks. That's arrogance - he knew that he was in a strong position and that his Jedi opponent was unarmed and in a bad situation; but instead of using his advantages, Maul just went for the sparkly effect, which gave Kenobi time to form an attack plan and use it.

Tiriol wrote:

Cos Dashit wrote:

FTeik wrote:Kenobi was out-classed by Maul and only won, because Maul's arrogance got the better of him.

I disagree. Obi-Wan won because he tapped into the Dark Side after watching his Master get impaled by Maul. Also, Maul did not become arrogant after the fight; when Obi-Wan started to 'bring it' he went on the defensive, this implies that he was being careful and knew when to stop the offense.

Remember what happened after Maul used the Force to push Obi-Wan into that shaft? He didn't finish Obi-Wan off, but rather toyed with him with all those sparks. That's arrogance - he knew that he was in a strong position and that his Jedi opponent was unarmed and in a bad situation; but instead of using his advantages, Maul just went for the sparkly effect, which gave Kenobi time to form an attack plan and use it.

True. He was arrogant when he had him in a seemingly unescapable position. But before that, arrogance on Maul's part wasn't shown.

Crown wrote: Explain why, other than it annoying you.

Because Anakin is the most powerful Jedi of his generation, period. Canon fact, novelization (and glaringly obvious fact that makes the entire plot happen). The end.

'Reserve' or physical fitness, regardless he couldn't over power Obi-Wan.

Given that Obi-Wan never stayed still to overpower and retreated continuously, this is not surprising.

No, not really. Also in RotS we had the Yoda and Sidious blow out, in this instance one was pumping a huge reservior at the other, and all the other one was doing it was 'holding' and channeling back ... until they both 'popped'. This one has nice visuals to help you aswell.

How does that help you? If anything, it merely reveals that, once again, noone was cancelling anything else out. And given that it's quite obvious that Yoda knew he wasn't strong enough to beat Palpatine irrespective of them both blasting each other off the pod, this is yet another piece of evidence that calls into question your "argument from force push and damn everything else" reasoning. Palpatine's reserves of power were greater- just like Anakin's are stated to be, canonically- not "potential" to be, are.

Yes, in which you engaged with Ad Homnien and Appeal to Motive fallacies ...

That's bullshit. You never said this the last time I said that, and if you want to discuss the issue, I'm perfectly willing to. You appealed to Bob Brown's claim that Obi-Wan could hold Vader off "all day". I responded that Bob Brown doesn't give a hint of concern to whether Obi-Wan had the reserves of force energy to do so, because he thinks lightsabre fighting is nothing but fencing.

No it is a bollocks critisism. If it were, lets throw out pretty much 90% of the post RotJ EU - specifically DE, hell now that I think about it that wouldn't be a bad thing.

Huh? How does throwing out the EU follow? If anything, your "argument from force push" is intent on throwing out everything we know from every single tier of canon for the sole purpose of maintaining your Obi-Wan views.

The movie overides the novel, and Anakin is said to only have the potential to be the most powerful Jedi/Sith of the era

The movie overrides nothing. The plot of the movie wouldn't even have happened if everyone and their dog was wrong about Anakin's power. Further, you're wrong about the novel. To quote:

This is Anakin Skywalker. The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill ...

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.

The end.

So was Dooku using this skill on Obi-Wan during their duels?

What skill?

What's your point? Your arguement was that for Dooku to use a force trick (singular) - as he did in the RotS duel - then he must be by default more powerful than Obi-Wan. So what's good for goose is good for the gander right?

And the fact that Obi-Wan lost fair and square in AotC? The fact that he couldn't replicate Dooku's feat in deflecting the lightning with his hand? This is not about just one piece of evidence.

Are you on crack? Seriously. The number of times Obi-Wan has been zapped with Sith Lightning = 1. He was unphased. We don't know whether or not he could do it with his bare hands - as he has never been in a position to try it.

So you're appealing to ignorance. Let me put it this way- what reason do you have, whatsoever, to argue that Obi-Wan could beat Dooku?

Bull. Fucking. Shit. There has been zero fucking quantifiable analysis done on either Dooku or Obi-Wan's Force abilities, all we can say for certain is that Dooku can ass whoop him in lightsabre combat.

And, let's bring it up again- lightsabre combat is NOT simple fencing. It's also a fight in the force. So yes, that is quantifiable evidence. Not to mention that by arguing this, you're implicitly putting Obi-Wan level with Yoda- did you see Yoda effortlessly overpower Dooku in force combat? No. They couldn't overcome each other.

A>D, D>OW ergo A>OW ... oops, I seem to remember one combatant (Anakin) having his legs and arm chopped off and the other, not so much... hmmmm.

Oh please. Everyone knows A>OW, merely because he got arrogant and made a bad call doesn't change that fact.

... what? I say Dooku didn't school Obi-Wan? I never claimed that Dooku can't, nor hasn't, beaten Obi-Wan. All of said is that all we can say for certain is that Dooku is demonstrably the better duelist, but there has been little evidence that he is also the stronger Force user.

You mean besides ignoring that a duel is a battle in the force as much as it is between lightsabres.

If by easily you mean standing right outside the ship he is hiding in and scratches his head like he wants to fart, then yes I agree. Please go on.

Funny, then how come Obi-Wan didn't know Vader was right outside, since it's oh so easy?

And this is again 'stalked', how? Now Obi-Wan being directly above Darth Tyranus with a clear line of sight without Darth Tyranus being any the wiser, what does this mean?

Darth Tyranus may simply not be in tune with the force like Anakin is. Given Obi-Wan's inability to use the Force to locate Zam Wessell's position when chasing her in AotC, a feat Anakin easily accomplished and acted on by jumping out of the speeder, I say the same applies to Obi-Wan.

At the end of RotS (at which point he had been a Sith for all of two minutes) he was ready to overthrow the Emperor ... 19 years later with all of that 'Sith training' he needed the help of a half trained boy. Fill in the gaps.

What does this have to do with Obi-Wan? Nothing. Unless, again, you're going to argue that Obi-Wan has a chance against the Emperor? And what's this "half-trained boy" nonsense? Don't you think he was planning on training Luke first?

You're right. Escape wasn't his plan.

Of course it wasn't his plan at the time Vader said it. He was too busy messing around with the Death Star's tractor beam.

Please remember that the atrophy point was tied into the above aswell.

What above?

What's this; an Appeal to Label fallacy?

No, simple canon fact.

True it is, but you seem to mistake 'zero evidence for a Vader win' to automatically mean '100% of Obi-Wan' win. While I can see how this strawman got erected - and can't really blame you - I'd appreciate it all the same if you didn't use it. Thanks.

Then what is your argument?

What the?

You claimed that the novleization tells us that Obi-Wan gave up the ghost. The novelization doesn't have Obi-Wan giving up, so this is an impossible claim. What the novelization actually says is that the Stormtroopers had cut off his route of escape.

Yes. Against Vader and his posse.

You mean the posse who just sat there watching? They blocked off his route to the Falcon, nothing more.

'Every which way'?

Yes, every which way.The one time Obi-Wan is fool enough to stand his ground, Vader easily shoves him, Obi-Wan almost shits himself, then goes reeling backward as Vader slices the wall next to him as Obi-Wan stumbles away. The rest of the time, Obi-Wan is constantly retreating to be whereever Vader isn't. Not once is Vader in difficulty.

Vader's duel against Luke in TESB was longer, are we to assume then that Vader was in mortal danger against Luke 99% of the time, but only managed to 'beat him' in the last minute? Or is time a really shitty and arbitrary factor when one combatant is just having shit's and giggles with the other?

Vader's duel against Luke was complicated by the fact that Vader was trying to take Luke alive. Do you really think that Vader couldn't have put Luke away permanently if he wished it?

If the latter, then isn't it also reasonable to assume that time is a shitty and arbitrary factor when one combatant just gives up for no reason at all? Oh I'm sorry, I forget, there was a reason. Vader's posse had him surrounded.

See above.

This Wankatine shit pisses me off - those are his canonical abilities, no bullshit. DE Palpatine IS Palpatine. Moreover, all the pieces in DE were already there pre-ROTJ, clones, transfer life, assimilation of others into his will, etc. The only thing that isn't sure is the Force storms.

The only thing that isn't sure is the Force storms.

Which is the wank part .
He also didn't show the ability to instantly make powerful dark jedi out of normal people in moments in the PT .

In terms of saber technique, it should be noted that Windu's Vaapad was exceptionally effective against Palpatine's dark side boosting (It caused a feedback loop), Windu was actually beaten by Dooku in a practice duel While Dooku was still in the order).

Still in raw skill (Not overall combat savvy [i.e Obi-Wan vs Anakin] or force amped speed/strength) I'd say it would be:
Windu
Yoda
Palpatine
Dooku/Anakin
Obi-Wan

Why are people ranking Yoda above Mace in the brains category? Mace at least had the sense to get a posse together before going after the Super Sith Master. Yoda decided to split his forces, rather than having Obi Wan and himself engage Palpatine. That was just flat out retarded.

Yoda decided to split his forces, rather than having Obi Wan and himself engage Palpatine. That was just flat out retarded.

First of all, it's arguable as to whether Obi-Wan would have been any help against Palaptine, Yoda flat out said:

No match for him will you ever be.
Die you will, and painfully

Anakin (Who was faster, stronger, etc' than Obi-Wan [just not as good a tactician]) could barely see Mace and Sidious during their fight, Obi-Wan barely beat Anakin, it's arguable as to whether he could have served as more than a minor distraction to Palpatine. (Who might have decided to call in reinforcements if outnumbered, or just used Obi-Wan as a hostage against Yoda).

Yoda also knew that he might not kill Sidious and that Anakin would be the greater threat if left unchecked (Lucas said that Anakin might reach twice Sidious's power), and that at least one of the Sith must be destroyed-
Sending Obi-Wan to kill the Sith who was only slightly stronger than him would be the better solution rather than using him as a meat shield.

Granted though, in Yoda's place I would have beaten Anakin into pulp (with Obi-Wan) then ambushed the Emperor on Mustafar with Obi-wan's help (As an initial decoy) when he came to kill me [Yoda] in revenge.

DEATH wrote: First of all, it's arguable as to whether Obi-Wan would have been any help against Palaptine, Yoda flat out said:

So what? If Obi-Wan distracts Palpatine for five seconds, he has saves the lives of billions who would be killed by the tyrant's wickedness. Even a slight distraction in that battle would have been enough to tip it in Yoda's favour.

Anakin (Who was faster, stronger, etc' than Obi-Wan [just not as good a tactician]) could barely see Mace and Sidious during their fight,

Overridden by the highest canon. If Anakin couldn't see them, he needs glasses or something, because they were quite visible. Stover's 'giant shadow Palpatine,' while cooler than what we got, is overidden by the film. It's just literary flourish.

A barely schooled Luke held out for some time against Palpatine's lightning, and that was after throwing his weapon away. A fully trained Jedi Master would, when Sidious didn't get the drop on him, be a significant distraction. Even if we discount everything else, fighting two sabre-weilders at once is exponentially harder than fighting just the one.

Obi-Wan barely beat Anakin, it's arguable as to whether he could have served as more than a minor distraction to Palpatine.

Which would have given Yoda a chance to stab him through the eye. Then they'd be left with Yoda versus Vader, and that's a foregone conclusion.

(Who might have decided to call in reinforcements if outnumbered,

He did that first opportunity anyway.

or just used Obi-Wan as a hostage against Yoda).

So? Ignore it. Obi Wan's painful death is a miniscule price to pay to rid the galaxy of a sith tyrant.

Yoda also knew that he might not kill Sidious and that Anakin would be the greater threat if left unchecked (Lucas said that Anakin might reach twice Sidious's power),

Stupid. Engage one at a time so you are actually certain of victory. It is very, very - as in, I was taught it at home, around seven - to not split your forces like that.

and that at least one of the Sith must be destroyed-
Sending Obi-Wan to kill the Sith who was only slightly stronger than him would be the better solution rather than using him as a meat shield.

Why? Obi-Wan's life would be spent well to take out Sidious. Can't you see that?

Granted though, in Yoda's place I would have beaten Anakin into pulp (with Obi-Wan) then ambushed the Emperor on Mustafar with Obi-wan's help (As an initial decoy) when he came to kill me [Yoda] in revenge.

<Sidious, aboard his Mandator II> Lord Vader is Dead. Initiate Base Delta Zero operations commander.

DEATH wrote:Granted though, in Yoda's place I would have beaten Anakin into pulp (with Obi-Wan) then ambushed the Emperor on Mustafar with Obi-wan's help (As an initial decoy) when he came to kill me [Yoda] in revenge.

If Palpatine had come to "avenge" Anakin's death (which is a highly dubious suggestion) he wouldn't have come alone to fight mano a mano -- he'd have nuked Mustafar (with Yoda and Kenobi on it) from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Anyways, my assumption for the whole splitting of forces was simple: to seize the opportunity. Palpatine's New Order hadn't been fully established yet, and so he was (relatively) vulnerable. He didn't have legions of troops between Yoda and himself, and he was in a knowable location. Fast forward a few years and see how easy it would have been to get that close to him. Similarly, Vader would have been much more well insulated.

As a result, the cost of taking out one or the other Sith Lord with (relative) certainty by attacking with numbers would have been never taking out the other one at all. There's also the whole question of how useful Kenobi would have been in an assault upon Palpatine, and if we're to believe Yoda's take on the matter, the answer is "not very".

SCRawl wrote:and if we're to believe Yoda's take on the matter, the answer is "not very".

Why would we believe Yoda? Even having another guy there to stab Palpy through the head when he's lying on his chair gasping would be inordinately useful.

Another thing to remember about killing Palpatine and leaving Anakin to later, is that Anakin's a whingy little bitch that doesn't have anything like the political skills of Sidious. He's not going to hold an empire together. What's more, there is, in the words of Count Dooku, more to being a sith than a red lightsabre. Without Sidious to teach him, Anakin will never become a Sith Lord, merely a dark jedi that calls himself one.

Unless he can find one of those places the old Sith scattered their knowledge, in holocrons, or temples like the one on Dromund Kaas. But even then, he would be a thousand years behind the times in Sith lore.

Whether or not Anakins force powers are superior to Obi-Wans, in overall combat ability the fight at the end of ROTS would indicate that they are fairly evenly matched. This doesn't gel well if writers intent is Anakin being the ultimate Jedi/Sith, but it's hard to view Anakin as vastly superior to Obi-Wan given the way the fight went.

NecronLord wrote:

DEATH wrote: First of all, it's arguable as to whether Obi-Wan would have been any help against Palaptine, Yoda flat out said:

So what? If Obi-Wan distracts Palpatine for five seconds, he has saves the lives of billions who would be killed by the tyrant's wickedness. Even a slight distraction in that battle would have been enough to tip it in Yoda's favour.

It's arguable as to whether Obi-Wan could have helped.
I can't see him survivng the surpise force blast (At the start of the fight) that Hurt a ready Yoda badly (Who could chanel sith lightning as was proven later in the fight).
If Obi-Wan had died (Probably in the start of the fight) and Yoda had failed to kill Palpatine then the Galaxy wouldn't have a hope in hell due to the Future uber Sith Anakin would become.

Anakin (Who was faster, stronger, etc' than Obi-Wan [just not as good a tactician]) could barely see Mace and Sidious during their fight,

Overridden by the highest canon. If Anakin couldn't see them, he needs glasses or something, because they were quite visible. Stover's 'giant shadow Palpatine,' while cooler than what we got, is overidden by the film. It's just literary flourish.

It said that he couldn't see then due to the speed at which they fought.
It's quite possible that we saw them normally due to being"magic" observers in a different time frame, we did not see them through the characters eyes.

A barely schooled Luke held out for some time against Palpatine's lightning, and that was after throwing his weapon away.

Strange definition for "Writhed on the ground helpless and screaming" against Palaptine's weaker lightning.
Palpatine was torturing him, after the "So be it, Jedi" speech Palpatine started some Real lightning that almost killed Luke after a very short exposure (Before Vader saved him while being killed himself by the lightning).

A fully trained Jedi Master would, when Sidious didn't get the drop on him, be a significant distraction.

Like the 4-5 Jedi council members that Palaptine slaughtered despite Windu standing next to them?
Obi-Wan was the 3d best council member but not by the same level Yoda or (Arguably) Mace were.

Even if we discount everything else, fighting two sabre-weilders at once is exponentially harder than fighting just the one.

But angling your blast of force lightning slightly isn't.
And fighting 6-5 Jedi council members at once isn't even harder?

Obi-Wan barely beat Anakin, it's arguable as to whether he could have served as more than a minor distraction to Palpatine.

Which would have given Yoda a chance to stab him through the eye. Then they'd be left with Yoda versus Vader, and that's a foregone conclusion.

(Who might have decided to call in reinforcements if outnumbered,

He did that first opportunity anyway.

After Yoda ran away, he did not summon reinforcement during the fight, nor did he tell Massa Meeda to summon troopers.
It's quite probably that Palpatine wanted to beat the

Rots novelization wrote:"master of all Jedi"

in a "fair fight".

or just used Obi-Wan as a hostage against Yoda).

So? Ignore it. Obi Wan's painful death is a miniscule price to pay to rid the galaxy of a sith tyrant

then why not send Obi-Wan to kill the future threat rather than have him slaughtered needlessy.
.

Yoda also knew that he might not kill Sidious and that Anakin would be the greater threat if left unchecked (Lucas said that Anakin might reach twice Sidious's power),

Stupid. Engage one at a time so you are actually certain of victory.

Sidious might have summoned a few battalions of troopers if he felt that the odds were uneven.

It is very, very - as in, I was taught it at home, around seven - to not split your forces like that.

Then why not bring the droids and Padme to the fight, they might serve as a distraction and it's a shame to split your resources like that.

and that at least one of the Sith must be destroyed-
Sending Obi-Wan to kill the Sith who was only slightly stronger than him would be the better solution rather than using him as a meat shield.

Why? Obi-Wan's life would be spent well to take out Sidious. Can't you see that?

But not well spent to be killed in one attack.
We saw that mere council members were not even meat shields to Sidious, yet all those members at once could have quite possibly killed Anakin. (Despite his ludicrous hyperbole about having the power of any ten masters )

Granted though, in Yoda's place I would have beaten Anakin into pulp (with Obi-Wan) then ambushed the Emperor on Mustafar with Obi-wan's help (As an initial decoy) when he came to kill me [Yoda] in revenge.

<Sidious, aboard his Mandator II> Lord Vader is Dead. Initiate Base Delta Zero operations commander.

Then why didn't Sidious have that cruiser (Rather than his shuttle) catch the starfighter with Vader's killer?
Yoda did cloak himself in the force from Sidious after running away, he might have managed to do so again, then he could ambush Sidious with his now disposable meat shield while Sidious was busy keeping Vader alive.

Without Sidious to teach him, Anakin will never become a Sith Lord, merely a dark jedi that calls himself one.

Sidious had taught him at least a few elements of the Sith, and Sith force ghosts have instructed new Sith of great potential in the past (Freedon Nadd for example).

Without Sidious to teach him, Anakin will never become a Sith Lord, merely a dark jedi that calls himself one.

Or the "cartloads" of ancient Sith holocrons once held in the jedi temple that had been retrieved by him.

He's not going to hold an empire together

He would be still a hero in the eyes of most, and at 2 times Sidous's power would be able to mindcontrol the Senate easily (Look at what Exar Kunn did with ease, and imagine someone making Force storms more than twice as powerful as Wankatines)

petesampras wrote:Whether or not Anakins force powers are superior to Obi-Wans, in overall combat ability the fight at the end of ROTS would indicate that they are fairly evenly matched.

Obi-Wan was backpedalling and using the terrain constantly, he used his tactical abilites not his weaker combat skills.

This doesn't gel well if writers intent is Anakin being the ultimate Jedi/Sith, but it's hard to view Anakin as vastly superior to Obi-Wan given the way the fight went.

Anakin would have become the Ultimate Force user given time to develop, he did increase massively in power and skill between AOTC and ROTS, and was gaining power very quickly after becoming Vader (He felt that before long he would be able to kill Sidious after learning the Secret to sustaining life)

DEATH wrote:

petesampras wrote:Whether or not Anakins force powers are superior to Obi-Wans, in overall combat ability the fight at the end of ROTS would indicate that they are fairly evenly matched.

Obi-Wan was backpedalling and using the terrain constantly, he used his tactical abilites not his weaker combat skills.

This doesn't gel well if writers intent is Anakin being the ultimate Jedi/Sith, but it's hard to view Anakin as vastly superior to Obi-Wan given the way the fight went.

Anakin would have become the Ultimate Force user given time to develop, he did increase massively in power and skill between AOTC and ROTS, and was gaining power very quickly after becoming Vader (He felt that before long he would be able to kill Sidious after learning the Secret to sustaining life)

I think 'tactical abilities' is included in 'overall combat ability', no?

Anakin may well have thought he would reach that level of power and he may well have done, but in terms of hard evidence the most powerful we ever see him as a warrior loses to Obi-Wan.