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And we see in ROTJ, that this isn't the case when Palpatine unleashes his force-lightning against Luke.

Anakin's children are a threat, because they might be able to turn Anakin back to the light-side or they are a threat because they ally with their daddy against Palpatine.

The ROTJ-novel makes it also clear, that Vader wanted to kill the emperor as soon as he had learned/mastered all of his secrets indepent of having his son by his side or not. This is a canon source suggesting Vader could defeat Palpatine on his own, so where does this "he needed Luke" come from?

FTeik wrote:And we see in ROTJ, that this isn't the case when Palpatine unleashes his force-lightning against Luke.

Surely you can understand the difference between potential and actual ability. I can argue in AOTC that Dooku is more powerful than Anakin can you make that same argument in ROTS? The novelization also has Luke instinctively turning force lightning without any prior training anindication of just how powerful he was even in his half trained state.

FTeik wrote:Anakin's children are a threat, because they might be able to turn Anakin back to the light-side or they are a threat because they ally with their daddy against Palpatine.

All well and good save that NO ONE not Obi Wan, Yoda, Leia, Palpatine or even Vader believed that Luke could turn him. Everyone urged him to kill his father. Only Luke believed that he could.

You can't feel threatened by something you don't believe "BY now you should know your father can never be turned to the dark side." coupled with Palpartine trusting Vader to parry Luke's initial attack and turning his back on Vader even after urging Luke to kill him all point to Palpatine never even considering it a threat.

The threat was a direct one - Luke or Leia could destroy the Emperor. He foresaw that. NOT that Luke or Leia would turn Anakin. That was an unforeseen consequence of Luke's actions.

FTeik wrote:The ROTJ-novel makes it also clear, that Vader wanted to kill the emperor as soon as he had learned/mastered all of his secrets indepent of having his son by his side or not. This is a canon source suggesting Vader could defeat Palpatine on his own, so where does this "he needed Luke" come from?

What does that have to do with anything being argued in terms of the threat posed by Anakin's offspring? If Vader could destroy the Emperor even in his weakened state then that argues more strongly for his unencumbered children being able to open the can of whoop ass on the Emperor as well.

Stravo wrote:How does that explain "Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this." in ESB?

or in the ROTJ novelization when the Emperor feels fear upon seeing Luke for the first time because he is so powerful.

Anakin's offspring were a direct threat to the Emperor not because they might turn Vader. He never considered Vader a threat of turning on him for his children. Note the trust in allowing Vader to block Luke's attack, turning his back on Vader when he starts frying Luke. Hell even Yoda and OBi Wan never even considered trying to turn Vader with Luke, they urged Luke to kill his own father.

Its very clear and obvious that the threat is that Anakin's offspring will be powerful enough to defeat Palpatine.

I've never read the novelizations, so I've obviously got some gaps in my theory.

I recognize (and noted this in my post above) that Obi-Wan & company (Yoda, mostly) didn't think it was possible for Luke to draw Vader away from Palpatine. But I always saw Vader's enticement of Luke in ESB to be a fabrication to appeal to what Vader think's are Luke's darker thoughts.

But by the time Vader and Luke appear before Palpy in ROTJ, he already knows that Luke has made his attempt. Palpatine had to have foreseen that Vader could potentially be turned -- he seemed to forsee just about everything else (other than his eventual defeat, apparently). My view, just from watching the movie, was that Palpatine's line "by now you must know your father can never be turned from the Dark Side" indicated that Palpatine thought the danger had passed... thus his overconfidence and ignoring his erstwhile ally.

I don't think it's quite as clear without the support of the novelization. But obviously if the novelization doesn't support this, Stravo, I guess I'm wrong and concede the point.

Stravo wrote:

FTeik wrote:And we see in ROTJ, that this isn't the case when Palpatine unleashes his force-lightning against Luke.

Surely you can understand the difference between potential and actual ability. I can argue in AOTC that Dooku is more powerful than Anakin can you make that same argument in ROTS? The novelization also has Luke instinctively turning force lightning without any prior training anindication of just how powerful he was even in his half trained state.

First, it wasn't instinctive (actual quote something like: "but if it was caused by the Force, maybe the Force could be used to deflect it") and second, how does this indicate any kind of power? That the ordinary OJO-Jedi has no defense against Sith-lightning is for the simple reason, that there wasn't a Sith around for thousand years and how do you want to know, that an ordinary OJO-Jedi wouldn't be able to come up with a similar defense (or like Obi-Wan by using his saber)? To make matters worse, Palpatine wasn't using full-power against Luke until Vader picked him up.

Stravo wrote:

FTeik wrote:Anakin's children are a threat, because they might be able to turn Anakin back to the light-side or they are a threat because they ally with their daddy against Palpatine.

All well and good save that NO ONE not Obi Wan, Yoda, Leia, Palpatine or even Vader believed that Luke could turn him. Everyone urged him to kill his father. Only Luke believed that he could.

Yoda only said, that Luke has to face Vader, not necessarily kill him (compare this to Yoda trying to turn Dooku back in "DarkRendevous"), Leia believed Luke enough to let him go, Palpatine was questioning Vader's feelings and motiviations before he went to pick up his boy from Endor.

Stravo wrote: You can't feel threatened by something you don't believe "BY now you should know your father can never be turned to the dark side." coupled with Palpartine trusting Vader to parry Luke's initial attack and turning his back on Vader even after urging Luke to kill him all point to Palpatine never even considering it a threat.

Perhaps because Palpatine knew, that Vader still needed him to turn the boy. And as we have seen, Palpatien was wrong about something he believed, so why can't he be wrong about something he didn't believe - especially in light of the dialog mentioned above: "i wonder if your feelings are clear on this matter".

Or, as Luke expressed it: "Your arrogance is your weakness."

Stravo wrote: The threat was a direct one - Luke or Leia could destroy the Emperor. He foresaw that. NOT that Luke or Leia would turn Anakin. That was an unforeseen consequence of Luke's actions.

Yes, Palpatine forsaw Luke or Leia destroying him. BY turning their father back to the light. Or, how GL said it, "Vader is redeemed by his children". No to mention his fate as ChosenOne to destroy the Sith.

Stravo wrote:

FTeik wrote:The ROTJ-novel makes it also clear, that Vader wanted to kill the emperor as soon as he had learned/mastered all of his secrets indepent of having his son by his side or not. This is a canon source suggesting Vader could defeat Palpatine on his own, so where does this "he needed Luke" come from?

What does that have to do with anything being argued in terms of the threat posed by Anakin's offspring? If Vader could destroy the Emperor even in his weakened state then that argues more strongly for his unencumbered children being able to open the can of whoop ass on the Emperor as well.

Nothing, since we already established, that Vader in the suit is as powerful as Vader before the suit. The threat to Palpatine doesn't originate in Vader's power, but the direction this power is going to be directed into.

FTeik wrote:

Stravo wrote:

FTeik wrote:And we see in ROTJ, that this isn't the case when Palpatine unleashes his force-lightning against Luke.

Surely you can understand the difference between potential and actual ability. I can argue in AOTC that Dooku is more powerful than Anakin can you make that same argument in ROTS? The novelization also has Luke instinctively turning force lightning without any prior training anindication of just how powerful he was even in his half trained state.

First, it wasn't instinctive (actual quote something like: "but if it was caused by the Force, maybe the Force could be used to deflect it") and second, how does this indicate any kind of power? That the ordinary OJO-Jedi has no defense against Sith-lightning is for the simple reason, that there wasn't a Sith around for thousand years and how do you want to know, that an ordinary OJO-Jedi wouldn't be able to come up with a similar defense (or like Obi-Wan by using his saber)? To make matters worse, Palpatine wasn't using full-power against Luke until Vader picked him up.

You said it yourself. Obi Wan and his saber, Yoda and his hands, Mace and his saber ...yeah you're right the Jedi had no defense against Force Lightning. Its pretty obvious from the prequels that a suffieciently powerful Jedi could defend himself against lightning. A really powerful Jedi doesn't even need his lightsaber.

Luke didn't need his lightsaber to begin deflecting the lightning. Compare the results of a single burst of Dooku lightning on Anakin in AOTC - knocking him out for minutes - in comparison to Luke who was concious and struggling against the lightning throughout.

And if you think of something and do it without training that's pretty much instinctual. Debate semantics all you want, Luke exhibited a force ability he had not previously been trained for in the span of seconds under pain that knocked out a Jedi in the Prequels.

You don't think Palpatine should have been afraid of Luke?

FTeik wrote:

Stravo wrote:

FTeik wrote:Anakin's children are a threat, because they might be able to turn Anakin back to the light-side or they are a threat because they ally with their daddy against Palpatine.

All well and good save that NO ONE not Obi Wan, Yoda, Leia, Palpatine or even Vader believed that Luke could turn him. Everyone urged him to kill his father. Only Luke believed that he could.

Yoda only said, that Luke has to face Vader, not necessarily kill him (compare this to Yoda trying to turn Dooku back in "DarkRendevous"), Leia believed Luke enough to let him go, Palpatine was questioning Vader's feelings and motiviations before he went to pick up his boy from Endor.

"Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally can defeat Vader and his Emperor." No wriggle room in there for "BTW see if you can turn your dear old dad."

Luke was being trained from the start as a weapon not a Jedi. He was given what he needed to know to defeat Vader not turn him. Why the whole "Once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny - consume you it will as it did Obi Wan's apprentice." if they wanted to give Luke some hope of turning his father. Coincedentally the same advice he gave Obi Wan on Coruscant. "The boy you knew is gone. Consumed by Darth Vader." There is absolutely no doubt in Yoda's mind that Anakin cannot be redeemed.

And more importantly Obi Wan's statement in ROTJ is rather telling when Luke says he cannot kill his father. "Then the Emperor has already won."

FTeik wrote:

Stravo wrote: You can't feel threatened by something you don't believe "BY now you should know your father can never be turned to the dark side." coupled with Palpartine trusting Vader to parry Luke's initial attack and turning his back on Vader even after urging Luke to kill him all point to Palpatine never even considering it a threat.

Perhaps because Palpatine knew, that Vader still needed him to turn the boy. And as we have seen, Palpatien was wrong about something he believed, so why can't he be wrong about something he didn't believe - especially in light of the dialog mentioned above: "i wonder if your feelings are clear on this matter".

Or, as Luke expressed it: "Your arrogance is your weakness."

So let me get this straight. The Emperor foresaw Luke turning Vader but didn't think it was going to happen or believe it was going to happen? Why order Luke's destruction? Why hunt him down? Why send the very one he foresaw Luke would turn to kill him?

When Vader thinks he freezes Luke on Bespin he states "Perhaps you're not as strong as the Emperor thought." clearly indicating that what the emperor feared most was Luke's power.

Palpatine himself states in his holocommunication to Vader "We have a new enemy - Luke Skywalker. He can destroy us." No "He can turn you and kill me."

FTeik wrote:

Stravo wrote: The threat was a direct one - Luke or Leia could destroy the Emperor. He foresaw that. NOT that Luke or Leia would turn Anakin. That was an unforeseen consequence of Luke's actions.

Yes, Palpatine forsaw Luke or Leia destroying him. BY turning their father back to the light. Or, how GL said it, "Vader is redeemed by his children". No to mention his fate as ChosenOne to destroy the Sith.

What GL is describing is what actually happened not what Palpatine was thinking or believed. Palpatine wanted Vader killed and replaced by his son. If vader killed Luke no biggie, the Emperor loses a threat to him and keeps his apprentice, Luke kills Vader and he gains a powerful apprentice.

Never in the equation on anyone's side - Sith or Jedi - did it ever occur to them that Anakin would turn. Anakin had to die in Obi wan and Yoda's eyes and in Palpatine's eyes.

FTeik wrote:

Stravo wrote:

FTeik wrote:The ROTJ-novel makes it also clear, that Vader wanted to kill the emperor as soon as he had learned/mastered all of his secrets indepent of having his son by his side or not. This is a canon source suggesting Vader could defeat Palpatine on his own, so where does this "he needed Luke" come from?

What does that have to do with anything being argued in terms of the threat posed by Anakin's offspring? If Vader could destroy the Emperor even in his weakened state then that argues more strongly for his unencumbered children being able to open the can of whoop ass on the Emperor as well.

Nothing, since we already established, that Vader in the suit is as powerful as Vader before the suit. The threat to Palpatine doesn't originate in Vader's power, but the direction this power is going to be directed into.

The threat is NEVER Vader in Palpatine's mind. It is Luke. Why turn your back on a potential threat? He concentrated all his attention and power on getting rid of the threat - Luke. If Vader's loyalty were ever in question why would Palpatine allow his life to be placed in Vader's hands twice? Why turn his back on Vader even after he demanded Luke to kill his father if not because he felt there was no threat there?

Vader was such a non-threat that the entire Battle of Endor was an attempt to replace him with a more powerful model.

Ghost Rider wrote:Palpatine instills into Vader the thought to kill him and the notion that he will if a new more powerful being comes along that he will destroy him to insure a continuation of the Sith Order.

A good point, and his conversation with Anakin in RotS on the balcony is a great example of this. Palpatine told him the story of Darth Plagueis, about how he acheived immortality and was eventually killed in his sleep. One of the most powerful Sith, killed by a stronger one, and so on, so forth. As Sidious did to Plagueis, Vader was eventually supposed to do to Sidious. Both Palpatine and Vader knew this, and accepted it as an inevitability. And all the while Palpatine worked on his mastery of the Dark Side, as to make sure it would be more than a simple obstacle.

Unfortunately for Vader, Luke came along and Palpatine wanted him as his new lackey.

Solauren wrote:However, moving him into a new body? That's solving his problem FOR him. He wouldn't learn to heal himself and therefore grow in power.

It gave Anakin a goal, an obstatle that was not as abstract as 'get more powerful then Palpatine and then kill him.' It's specific. 'Give myself over to the Dark Side and learn to heal my injuries, then become more powerful then Palaptine and kill him.'

Working towards that goal would also keep him busy while Palpatine grew in power, thus forcing Vader to become more powerful to defeat him.

Precisely, see above.

A point I would like to add; Palpatine continued to work toward immortality so that only the most powerful would be able to defeat him. Maintaining the Sith Order.

Turin wrote:

Kurgan wrote:According to Obi-Wan, the Emperor "knew" that any offspring Vader had would be a threat to him (a threat to Palpatine), which is why Leia and Luke were hidden. Vader and the Emperor learn about Luke finally decades later. If Palpatine was keeping Vader weak to prevent him being powerful enough to overthrow him, why trade him in for a more powerful apprentice like Luke?

I think that Obi-Wan means that Anakin's offspring would be a threat to the Emperor because he knows that the offspring would be the only way that Vader could be made to be disloyal. Even if Obi-Wan doesn't think that Vader can be turned from the Dark Side, I'm sure Obi-Wan is aware that Palpatine would be worried about having his apprentice turn away from him... it would be a threat to his power and his long-term Sith Empire.

Until the prequels I interpreted the "threat" as being because we all know that Force power is passed on to your children, so they could be powerful Jedi/Sith and challenge the Emperor or Vader for obvious reasons. I never interpreted it as the Emperor thinking that Vader would have a son who would try to bring his dad back from the Dark Side. However now that the prequels seem to muddy that issue and not assume that offspring are automatically force sensitive, much less as powerful or more powerful than their parents, it isn't quite as clear. Perhaps that he'd have offspring would divide his loyalties, since he'd have something else to cling to (like his mother or Padme) and he wouldn't focus his attention as single mindedly on serving the Empire and Palpatine. Palpy seemed to want to isolate Anakin by turning his friends and coworkers all against him in his mind. Thus Palpy would be his "only friend" and be more loyal.

I guess I think we're giving Palpatine too much credit if we assume that he foreknew that Luke and Leia would be born and be super powerful, or that he assumed Vader's son would come to replace Vader. I think some people (intentionally or not) tie this with the Plagueis thing by assuming that Palpatine planned for Anakin to be born on some backwater world and live his life there, then the Jedi accidentally find him and take him to Coruscant where he could "watch his career with great interest" rather than simply him seeing an opportunity to try to turn this new situation to his advantage somehow as it appeared to me. So the logic might run something like this: Palpatine planned for Luke to grow up on Tatooine and then live his life up to a certain point where he could be turned and groomed as Vader's replacement because he knew Vader was disloyal. I don't think that's what's happening at all, since Vader seems to be the one who came up with the idea of sparing Luke by "turning" him, since Palpatine seems to immediately want Luke dead as soon as he realizes he exists (and forsees that Luke "could destroy us").

Palpatine doesn't seem to suspect Vader's disloyalty until ROTJ in that exchange with "I'm not sure your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader." Turning Skywalker was the plan, now he sees the opportunity to test Vader's loyalty in the process. Like the "original plan" that Dooku thinks about in turning Anakin in the ROTS novel, they could have pulled it off in such a way as that there were three Sith at once. It's not as if this "rule" could never be changed, since it was changed in the first place (the original Sith didn't have the rule for a thousand years, half of their existence).

I see Palpatine more as somebody with plans, but plans that are constantly changing based on new situations. Yes, he's arrogant, and thinks he can see the future (obviously his vision of the future is imperfect), but he definately has limits and changes his plans frequently. Otherwise we risk creating him into this godlike being with omniscience, which I don't think he was ever meant to be.

Luke is such a crazy gambler, because he does what nobody thought possible or sane, to try to turn his father. Yoda and Obi-Wan expected Luke to just kill the two Sith or die trying. Palpatine wanted to kill Luke until Vader convinced him otherwise. Vader wanted to turn him and kill the Emperor, and if he wouldn't turn, kill him. I don't think the turning of Vader by Luke was part of anyone's original plan, or forseen by anyone else. Yes, the Emperor eventually "catches on" that Luke wants to turn Vader (his "his compassion for you will be his undoing"), but if he was genuinely afraid that Vader would be turned, he wouldn't have risked it.

An interpretation that would say something like "Luke was on the dark path, while Vader was becomign the Sith heretic by straying, and Luke's job was a loyal pre-Sith was to eliminate this threat, that is to say Vader is the real threat to Palpatine" I think is much more of a stretch. Palpatine didn't want Luke to kill Vader until it was clear Vader was beaten.

Do you think that if Vader had won the fight and was standing over a handless Luke about to strike the killing blow that Palpatine would have gone "wait, stop! I wanted him as my new apprentice, not you, you traitor!" and start zapping Vader or something? Extremely doubtful. I think Palpatine was just coming up with a last minute "win win for me" situation (he thought). Cool infinities scenario, though.

Anyway, I don't see giving Vader a new body as anymore of a copout than Palpatine giving himself a new body, which according to the EU, he did many many times. Obviously they wanted to keep Vader in the suit to make it cool and continue the theme of the man becoming machine and losing his sense of self to cold calculating evil, etc. (anti-technology wrinkle in Star Wars), but the prequels show the technology exists, and hints that the supernatural powers to make it even easier may exist. Even apart from the EU I think we're given ample reasons for it to be possible. So I guess for me it remains a plot hole...

Not that the Highlander-esque "when the time comes you're expected to kill your master" thing isn't interesting, it just seems far more counterproductive to the survival of the Sith Order. Besides, the Rule of Two was something they implemented after a thousand years of warfare and to help them hide from their enemies the Jedi. Now that their power is secure, even if it was a rule that they were supposed to try to kill each other, they need not have continued with it. Anakin already had ambitions (half baked as they were) of overthrowing Palpatine right at the start (Mustafar). Was this an idea planted in his head by Palpatine after he was dubbed "Darth Vader" (oh btw son, you're supposed to try to kill me, just like that story of the wise Sith I used on you at the theater, so try to make it a surprise to me!)? Doesn't seem likely. Both Vader and Palpatine seem alike in that they impulsively come up with schemes and plans. The difference is that Palpatine's work more often, since he seems to have more brains...

Gandalf wrote:

Eframepilot wrote:And yet, Palpatine put non-Force adept Bevel Lemelisk in a new body multiple times. Why bother going after Luke when he could have just restored Vader? Stupid EU and its inconsistencies.

Wasn't Vader still a fairly decent Sith underling when in the suit?

Powerful enough to deal with other people, but not powerful enough to try and fight Sidious. Or something like that.

I don't remember exactly where I read it, but George Lucas was quoted as saying that Vader was approx 80% as powerful as the Emperor due to his injuries and missing limbs. If Vader were whole, he apparently would have swallowed Palpaltine in just how powerful Vader was with the Force. Hench Papaltine saying in ROS that Vader was going to be much stronger then him or Yoda.

Yeah and he "can't use force lightning" or "be invulnerable to it" because he has robotic limbs.

Wish we knew why...

It's sort of like Lucas's "explanation" for why Hayden appears at the end of ROTJ. "He appears as he was when he died, as Anakin Skywalker."