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*sigh* the 'Balance of the Force' is more than just the fate of two orders of Force users. The Jedi and Sith were merly tools. If you look at the state of the Galaxy running up to the Clone Wars, it's plainly disfunctional and rotting.

Since most of the Galaxy is controled by the Republic, the fate of the Republic, let alone the health of the system, would affect trillions of lives and presumable those trillions of lives would affect the Force (Life creates it, makes it grow). The long fall of the Republic (if we take the Roman Empire as a templete) would be long, painful and harsh. It would probably collapse in on itself and leave behind anarchy and misery.

So, what does the Force do? If change is going to come, why not hasten the 'bad part'? What does it use for 'tools'? Why not the two major orders of Force useres? Palpatine was the chemotherapy that killed the rot and cancer of a dying galactic goverment. Swept it away clean.

Anakin Skywalker was 'to bring balance' again by killing the harsh medicine. Obviously people on all sides misinteret 'chosen one' to what they want and the Jedi interpertaion would be to kill the Sith. However, the large view, it seems that he was there to stop the 'change' when it was time so that the cure was not worse than the desease. He also came fully equipt with the seeds of a new order to serve the Force.

The prophecy says that the chosen one would "bring balance to the force" not balance to the force users. The balance of the force has little to do with the number of force users on either side.

In AOTC, Yoda remarks how dark and cloudy the force has become, and how it is affecting his perception. Disregarding the EU, Anakin does bring balance at the end of ROTJ by distroying the emperor and allowing Luke to bring back the light side.

Cos Dashit wrote:

Kurgan wrote:Actually you could wipe out the Sith or the Jedi because they are a set of teachings and traditions. Unless those particular teachings and traditions are all revealed supernaturally (in which case, why the need to "train" anyone?), then you could simply destroy all their records (or hide them) and kill everyone who knew the info.

Yes, but there records are only what they learned about the Dark Side. If every single one was wiped out, a new Force-adept could begin to learn it, and teach it to pupils, and they learn more about it, etc. until they are back at the point they were. And with Jedi around it is far easier to re-learn.

Kurgan wrote:There might always be a "Dark side" that Jedi could fall to, but once the teachings are destroyed and anyone who remembers them destroyed, their tradition is effectively dead. If Yoda and Obi-Wan had died without training Luke, the Jedi would have effectively died as well (since Vader converted, he was no longer considered a Jedi, and so when he died, no more Jedi stuff possible, unless somebody dug up any surviving records and implemented them).

See above.

Kurgan wrote:And forget all the EU stuff about the history of the Sith, Lucas wrote his own story, so you retcon the old stuff based on the new, not the other way around. So some prophecy from the EU about there always being Sith and Jedi eternally at war until the end of time really doesn't hold much weight in interpreting the prequel created prophecy. Lucas said Anakin fulfilled the prophecy. Of course someone will say that Lucas's behind the scenes comments don't mean jack, but there you go, clear statement of authorial intent right on the DVDs.

Isn't the purpose of canon to add to the story? Technically, in none of the movies did it say that Mace/Yoda couldn't be wrong about bringing balance to the Force. How could you just throw it out the window?

The purpose of canon is supposedly to maintain a coherent story within what is considered the "real story" of Star Wars. But the problem is that Lucas is free to amend or change it anytime he wants to. I guess it doesn't particularly bother me that a movie contradicts some book (it is a bit annoying when you're having a movie marathon and the movies contradict each other though, since not everyone is geek enough to have read all the explanations that try to fit everything together, I'm talking mixed company here), I can still enjoy that story even if it's completely contradictory, I just can't pretend it all fits together perfectly without doing some retconning. But for some of us coming up with explanations to harmonize sources is a pasttime in itself, so I'm not going to try to take that away from someone either. The other issue with continuity is when Lucas says something like he "always intended" yet you have the glaring inconsistencies right in front of your face, which makes Lucas either look like he's sloppy or selling BS. But, one can still have fun, I had a Highlander marathon once, I just didn't worry about it. (and if you're curious, we watched Highlander 1, 3, 2 (director's cuts all) in that order, when the term Highlander Movie Marathon alone is probably anathema to many fans!).

Anyway, it's only an issue because Lucas himself said that's how it played out (Anakin fulfills the prophecy), and he's the creator of the canon.
Again unless you say that Lucas's words don't matter, that seems pretty clear to me.

Things would have been fine if he hadn't decided to contradict the EU with the prequels. The canon before the prequels just wasn't ready for this whole prophecy thing or the history of the Sith. It threw a monkey wrench into the whole thing, so now you've got retcons existing and being made to try to sort it all out, and you can decide if you think it makes sense. I'm just objecting to the idea that we should re-interpret the prequels based on our preconcieved notions of the EU materials written before. Lucas didn't care what they said, so why should we? So look to your post prequel EU for answers, and see if those make sense if you're a completist.

AK_Jedi wrote:The prophecy says that the chosen one would "bring balance to the force" not balance to the force users. The balance of the force has little to do with the number of force users on either side.

In AOTC, Yoda remarks how dark and cloudy the force has become, and how it is affecting his perception. Disregarding the EU, Anakin does bring balance at the end of ROTJ by distroying the emperor and allowing Luke to bring back the light side.

Anakin "brought back the lightside" in himself too, matter of fact.

The Jedi Order has an unbroken line in the background, even though the Jedi aren't in any position of power at this time, at least that was my impression.

Spartan wrote:Your kidding right...the Sith aren't gone, their a whole planet of Dark Lord spectres just waiting for some idoit force sensity to come to Korriban in a quest for power. As long as a force ghost or sith artifact remains their will always be Sith...their worse than cockroaches.

You're right, of course. Prophecy Shmophecy. Lucas is smoking Yoda's lost stash!


As for destroying the Force, our pal SuperShadow decided to one-up George by having the Dark Side actually coming from a certain star system, which they blew up with a super weapon, meaning no more Dark Side, ever. It sounds stupid, but remember all that crap about planets being "impregnated" with the dark side, and stuff? Just take it a step further... puff, puff, pass!

Well this is what I tell casual SW fans when the tell me "Luke was the real chosen one."

Luke was only born because Anakin disregarded the Jedi ways and eventually fell to the dark side. Anakin let go of the dark side and killed the Emporer to save Luke thus fufilling the prophecy. Had Anakin not been on the path to the dark side in the first place, Luke would not have been born and Anakin would have likely fufilled the prophecy the way the Jedi hoped he would.

While this doesn't really take the EU into account, it does explain what happens in the movies with regards to the prophecy. I like Knife's explaination a few posts back about the will of the force and the rotting Republic. That certainly allows for all the EU 'surrvivors' durring the Purge and still fits with what we see in the movies. Its probably a little more enigmatic than Lucas intended, but it rectifies everything nicely.

One of the documentaries on the RotS DVD reveals that George Lucas intended Anakin to be the Chosen One, not Luke. And in the end, it was Anakin that destroyed the Sith by killing himself and the Emperor, even if it was aided by the actions of Luke. IMO, one of the biggest mistakes SW fans make in interpretating the prophecy is categorizing "balance" as something different than the "light side". The whole mythology of the Force appears to be heavily influenced by eastern religions and philosophies. Instead of seeing "Light Side vs. Balance vs. Dark Side", I believe it's more "Light Side = Balance" and "Dark Side = Chaos".

Also note: The Sith and the Jedi are merely organizations. While they use the Force, they aren't created by it or inherent to the Force; you can have the Force without them, but you can't have them without the Force. It's quite possible that one or the other could be utterly exterminated, artifacts notwithstanding (as any good exterminating force would be careful to ensure complete and utter destruction of any remaining artifacts, and probably the destruction of Korriban as well).

Elheru Aran wrote:Also note: The Sith and the Jedi are merely organizations. While they use the Force, they aren't created by it or inherent to the Force; you can have the Force without them, but you can't have them without the Force. It's quite possible that one or the other could be utterly exterminated, artifacts notwithstanding (as any good exterminating force would be careful to ensure complete and utter destruction of any remaining artifacts, and probably the destruction of Korriban as well).

A complete extermination of every source, both Jedi and Sith would require the absolute wipe out of entire planets and even populations.
How easy would it be for the random civilian to just pass vague rumours about Jedi and Sith teachings.
Qui Gon made no real secret of telling Shimi anything about the Jedi ways and its not as if either side made much attempt at concealing their abilities and lore.

So its highly unlikely that a complete and utter eradication of all traces of Sith and/or Jedi could be done without some extreme measures. Simply because the force is pretty much a known issue amoungst this galaxy and the two sides have made pretty good displays of their power.

This is not counting the amount of wreckage and addtional info left behind, in the form of databanks, jorunals, holocrons, buildings etc.
If you wanted to eradicate the Sith, not only would Korriban have to be destroyed but so would Yavin which was supposed to hold Exar Kun.

The organisations can be damaged and its members killed but it is going to be next to impossible to eradicate all traces of such organisations when they have had a massive effect in the course of the history of the galaxy.

I have always viewed the balance of the Force not something that can be quantified with merely the amount of the Jedi and the Sith in existence. Long story short, I have come to consider the dark side a corruption, perversion of the natural cycle of the Force - life and death, growing and waning etc. - and Darth Bane's Sith Order was growing very, very powerful and strong in the Force and using that power to spread the dark side. Anakin as the Chosen One brought balance to the Force by destroying the Emperor and himself and effectively ending the Sith's domination of the galaxy. The Jedi Order of old was wiped out, yes, but because it could not adapt and became stagnant - rules became more important than the spirit of things and the living will of the Force.

This interpretation draws heavily on more symbolic and narrow view of the Force and has a bunch of mystic sayings in it and it is just my opinion. I don't know how much the canon supports it, though.

Knife:

*sigh* the 'Balance of the Force' is more than just the fate of two orders of Force users. The Jedi and Sith were merly tools. If you look at the state of the Galaxy running up to the Clone Wars, it's plainly disfunctional and rotting.

Since most of the Galaxy is controled by the Republic, the fate of the Republic, let alone the health of the system, would affect trillions of lives and presumable those trillions of lives would affect the Force (Life creates it, makes it grow). The long fall of the Republic (if we take the Roman Empire as a templete) would be long, painful and harsh. It would probably collapse in on itself and leave behind anarchy and misery.

Right......So, the New Republic and the Galactic Alliance are mesurably better than the Old Republic from the Forces perspective, how exactly. Nope...no balance here.

One thing I would like to comment on is the Force itself. Many here describe it as being sentient and indeed Qui'Gon spoke of "will of the Force" but later Obi-Wan merley described it as an energy field to Luke. Yoda also never ascribed any sentient properties to Force. Jedi are after all "human" and can also invent myths and legends surrounding a concept that is not completley understood.

I like the idea that "midi-chlorians" are as fictional as "body thetans".

Personnally, I side with Anakin Solo's interpretation of the Force in the NJO books.

Force = tool
Can be used to kill people
Can be used to see the future
Can be used to do lots of things...

No evidence has been shown that the Force has any REAL intelligence or intent. All we see is people giving their own interpretations of the Force and rapping it up like its some sort of God who has the ultimate right to decide what happens where.
They use the Force to justify their own point of view by defining it as "dark" and "light"
One interesting point in NJO was the idea that Dark and light need not be enemies and that a TRUE Force user dosent have to be afraid of either and can use both.
Its like morality really. Sith focus on themselves but Jedi are Selfless but this is meerly an ideal just like Palpatine said that the Jedi and Sith are almost identical.

So if we have 2 extremes then its entirely possible to have 1 middle point where a forceuser could use lightning and uhhhh cant seem to think of a Jedi specific force power ?
So really the Force dosent pick sides and its only the peoples interpretation that picks the side.

At best I would put the Force as a more advanced nature of telepathy in B5.
Basically its down to the person that uses it. Some people are stronger and others are weaker, if the person manages to find the right point they can do anything they want and anything they do or see using their abilities is due to their own intentions.

The idea that the "Force" is basically some sort of god figure that decides everything is like arguing Fate. Everything we do is predetermined and we have no choice at all.

In this case every single act down to the very slightest atom is controlled and set up as it was meant to be which pretty much means we have no freedom of choice or thought.
So it was the "will of the Force" that allowed the Jedi to become exactly as they are, it was the "will of the Force" that decided to let billions of people die.
If everything is in the force and can be affected by it then really the Force is either an entity which controls everything or the Force is a non animate ability which is completely dependant on the person using it.

If the latter is true then everything that happened and does happen is an occurance of the actions of the people in the galaxy. Anakin's birth was seen by someone cause that specific guy wanted to see the future and his beliefs shaped the future he saw.
Anakin was born because Shimi may have wanted it or some random occurance which affected the Force caused it. A death of someone nearby, a planet being killed etc.

Basically put, if the Force is a tool then Anakin wasnt a chosen anything and the force has no balance.
It was all based on religous zeal and belief and personnal morality. Nothing to do with the Force at all.

PREDATOR490 wrote:<snip yabbering>.

And amazingly the movies override this.

So like you'll be asked when you throw up ridiculous assertions.

PROVE your particular point. You claim Anakin was just the Force going willy nilly. The movies and the EU say otherwise.

So where's you proof?

First of all: Considering solely the movies, Anaking certainly fullfilled the prophecy, as he whiped out the jedi order and destroyed the sith almost on his own... then, a new jedi order was able to rise, on the top of it Luke and Leia Skywalker(the only 2 surviving force users, as far as the movies are concerned). The sith way do NOT exist any longer.

Unfortunately, the EU neglected all this, and made their own idea about Jedi and Sith. I don't think we will ever get to an agreement about this issue when we take the EU into account, but one thing is given, at least to my mind. Vader DID whipe out the Sith when he killed his master(and Luke(remember that Luke was "made" by Anakin) his clone). There may be people left who call themselves Dark Jedi or similar, but the Order of the Sith is destroyed.

Kane Starkiller wrote:One thing I would like to comment on is the Force itself. Many here describe it as being sentient and indeed Qui'Gon spoke of "will of the Force" but later Obi-Wan merley described it as an energy field to Luke. Yoda also never ascribed any sentient properties to Force. Jedi are after all "human" and can also invent myths and legends surrounding a concept that is not completley understood.

In ANH, Obi-Wan insisted that there is no such thing as luck. Even Han Solo claimed that there was no mystical energy controlling his destiny, implying that Obi-Wan believed otherwise. I'd bet a good number of people would have immediately classified his survival at Utapau as sheer luck. Had the clonestroopers had aimed their gun a little lower, the blast probably would have proved instantly fatal to him. Or had Sidious gave Order 66 moments earlier, the clones would have had a better opportunity to ambush and kill Obi-Wan. That in itself suggests to me that Obi-Wan believed that it was the Force's will that kept him alive rather than luck. There's certainly evidence to suggest that Obi-Wan shared Qui-Gon's belief in the "will of the Force".

Ghost Rider wrote:

PREDATOR490 wrote:<snip yabbering>.

And amazingly the movies override this.

So like you'll be asked when you throw up ridiculous assertions.

PROVE your particular point. You claim Anakin was just the Force going willy nilly. The movies and the EU say otherwise.

So where's you proof?

Point:
Post Endor things were biased towards Jedi

Evidence:
If the Force had wanted to completely balance out the scales then it would practically require the erradication of every single person with knowledge from both Sith and Jedi.
This didnt happen at all.

Post-Endor
Jedi:
Luke - Semi trained in Jedi ways, instructed in what NOT to do
Callista - Children of the Jedi
Corran Horn - Descendant of a jedi - I,JEDI
Kyle Katarn - This game character is mentioned specifically by name in one NJO book wether or not that makes the game character history legit is questionable. I would hope not unless someone wants to start explaining what happened to the Valley of Jedi etc.
- The Unifying Force
Veagre - Previous jedi knight from old Republic was actually there when Anakin was on Courscant. - Traitor

Sith
Exar Kun - Jedi Academy Trilogy
Guy under Coruscant - Mentioned during the Yuuzhan Vong capture of Coruscant. 3 meters tall and covered in lightsabers. - Rebel Stand/Rebel Dream

There are numerous sites which have been mentioned with Sith teachings all over the place, infact Luke ends up having to be careful because Palpatine left a shitstorm of training techniques designed to make people into Sith.

Overall I dont consider this a really good "wipe" or "balance" when you have several Jedi left in various conditions with their own teachings coming down.
The Jedi even find holocrones so in light of this the NJO is based on previous Jedi beliefs. I call that a fairly one sided change in balance.

Conclusion:

Sith were almost erradicated but fragments still remain.
Jedi are not quite the same but Luke and various other finds pretty much give him a good basis to build on. Basis or not that still indicates Jedi came out better.

As for the rest about being a tool, that was personnal opinion.

Ghost Rider wrote:
You claim Anakin was just the Force going willy nilly. The movies and the EU say otherwise.

Qui Gon said the force spoke through Medichlorians which pretty much suggests that every action, both Jedi and Sith is all due to the "will" of the force because inorder to use things which tap into the force then it must involve listening to the "will" of the Force.
Meaning the Force deliberatly set up the Jedi order and Palpatine by sending them "just" enough to make them get the wrong end of the stick while providing the other side with an open opertunity to land the sucker punch.

It was the "Will" of the force to send a prophecy that gave the Jedi a hint of what was coming but not enought to let them get it clear.
So it must have been the "will" of the force to send that vision. If the Jedi misinterpreted the vision then why didnt the force have the "will" to send another one ?
It was the "will" of the force to give Palpatine a sense of overconfidence at the DSII. He specifically said:

"Everything is proceding as I have forseen" - So the force told him or at least gave him a good idea that he was going to win.
Instead the "will" of the force has him killed.

So based on that I think the "will" of the force is pretty fucked up.

It was the "will" of the force to send Kyp Durron to Exar Kun.
It was the "WILL" of the force to have Exar Kun tell Kyp to blow up entire planets.
It was the "will" of the force for Zokema Skeot to strip the Yuuzhan Vong of the force - now this really does have an irony.
etc.

It must have been the "will" of the force to have Anakin have that vision where he sees Padme die. The thing that drives him over the edge.
Thus it must have been the "will" of the force not to balance the force at all and leave it biased towards the light.
Thus it must have been the "will" of the force to have all these little left overs of both sides and not completely destroy anything.

Put simply. It was the "Will" of the force to leave the force unbalanced all along.
If the Force had wanted to kill the Palpatine then all it had to do was give a vision of who he was.

So inretrospect, Anakin fufiled a prophecy to bring balance to the Force when all the Force did was rearrange the sides.

Cos Dashit wrote:

Spartan wrote:Your kidding right...the Sith aren't gone, their a whole planet of Dark Lord spectres just waiting for some idoit force sensity to come to Korriban in a quest for power. As long as a force ghost or sith artifact remains their will always be Sith...their worse than cockroaches.

Yes, I agree, you could never destroy the Sith. You would need to destroy the Force.

And the destruction of the force may mean destruction of the universe, as the Force is created by all living things. You can't turn off the tap unless you block off the source of the water. Stopping the Force from existing means keeping whatever causes it from existing.

Spartan wrote:
Right......So, the New Republic and the Galactic Alliance are mesurably better than the Old Republic from the Forces perspective, how exactly. Nope...no balance here.

Considering that the NR lasted as long as the Empire, I don't see how my opinion is invalidated, nor by the GFFA since it has been only a few years since it's creation. We have no idea how long it'll be around.

Going back to the Roman analogy, it took centuries for a lot of the various provinces to pull their shit together, but I believe it would have been even longer, going back to starwars and the current state of the galaxy, if the Republic would have continued to decay for the next few hundred years.

When a fire rips through forests filled with dead trees, undergrowth and brush that have piled up over many years, nature is put back in balance. When deer or pigs overpopulate an area, tigers or other predators will kill a number of them, putting nature back in balance. Torrential rains cause a lot of damage, but also wash away a lot of dirt and debris and in doing so, clear the land for new growth. Nature is put in balance.

By the time of The Phantom Menace, the Jedi and Republic are like the dry brush, overabundant deer, and debris. The Force is out of balance and only a fire, predators or flood will hit the reset button. Anakin Skywalker was the match that set the whole thing on fire and Palpatine was the arsonist.

As for prophesy, Anakin's story is like the ancient Greek story of a king who is about to attack the kingdom next door. He asks an oracle what will happen. The prediction: If you go to war with your neighbor, you will destroy a great kingdom. He took it as a good sign, attacked and lost badly. His kingdom was in ruins. He destroyed a kingdom -his own. The Jedi took it as a good sign that someone came along who was born to put things back in balance. They didn't realize that it in order to do so, he would end up destroying the Jedi.

Oedipus comes to mind as well. In mythology, prophecies have a way of coming true, but in ways people don't expect.

Elfdart wrote:When a fire rips through forests filled with dead trees, undergrowth and brush that have piled up over many years, nature is put back in balance. When deer or pigs overpopulate an area, tigers or other predators will kill a number of them, putting nature back in balance. Torrential rains cause a lot of damage, but also wash away a lot of dirt and debris and in doing so, clear the land for new growth. Nature is put in balance.

By the time of The Phantom Menace, the Jedi and Republic are like the dry brush, overabundant deer, and debris. The Force is out of balance and only a fire, predators or flood will hit the reset button. Anakin Skywalker was the match that set the whole thing on fire and Palpatine was the arsonist.

As for prophesy, Anakin's story is like the ancient Greek story of a king who is about to attack the kingdom next door. He asks an oracle what will happen. The prediction: If you go to war with your neighbor, you will destroy a great kingdom. He took it as a good sign, attacked and lost badly. His kingdom was in ruins. He destroyed a kingdom -his own. The Jedi took it as a good sign that someone came along who was born to put things back in balance. They didn't realize that it in order to do so, he would end up destroying the Jedi.

Oedipus comes to mind as well. In mythology, prophecies have a way of coming true, but in ways people don't expect.

Hmmm, you put it a bit more poetically than I did, but I think I'm trying to say the same thing. Good show, old chap.

Lex wrote:There may be people left who call themselves Dark Jedi or similar, but the Order of the Sith is destroyed.

Just because the Order of the Sith is destroyed, does NOT mean the Sith are destroyed.

Cos Dashit wrote:

Lex wrote:There may be people left who call themselves Dark Jedi or similar, but the Order of the Sith is destroyed.

Just because the Order of the Sith is destroyed, does NOT mean the Sith are destroyed.

Why does it matter?

chitoryu12 wrote:

Cos Dashit wrote:

Spartan wrote:Your kidding right...the Sith aren't gone, their a whole planet of Dark Lord spectres just waiting for some idoit force sensity to come to Korriban in a quest for power. As long as a force ghost or sith artifact remains their will always be Sith...their worse than cockroaches.

Yes, I agree, you could never destroy the Sith. You would need to destroy the Force.

And the destruction of the force may mean destruction of the universe, as the Force is created by all living things. You can't turn off the tap unless you block off the source of the water. Stopping the Force from existing means keeping whatever causes it from existing.

Naturally, that is why the Sith can never be destroyed. You cannot destroy the Force.

Knife wrote:

Cos Dashit wrote:

Lex wrote:There may be people left who call themselves Dark Jedi or similar, but the Order of the Sith is destroyed.

Just because the Order of the Sith is destroyed, does NOT mean the Sith are destroyed.

Why does it matter?

Because this whole thread is about bringing balance to the Force, a feat impossible to do. It matters because some people would believe that the obliteration of the Sith Order means the obliteration of the Sith, and that is not true, not at all.