Q vs. yoda and Palpatine

[Master of Ossus]

Q was afraid of Whoopi Goldberg.

Really? I have something in common with Q?

[jegs2]

Q was afraid of Whoopi Goldberg.

Really? I have something in common with Q?

Or as someone once said, "Now there's a face even a mother couldn't love..."

Yes I know, that was mean.

[nightmare]

I think you should have stopped at the last post and leave it at that we have different opinions. Now you look a bit rabid..

1 & 3: You're saying "but they could be much more powerful than that." in the "real world" dimension, they display no more power than supernovae. If you fired a Q-gun in the "real world", it might not cause any damage at all! I don't invent stuff out of thin air.

Besides, you wouldn't consider the sound of a bullet actual damage, would you? Exploding stars, however..

I'm saying that the weapons cause various effects, one of them is hurting other Q, another are stars going Nova. Now what type of weapon would deal as much damage to something several dimensions away, rather than at it's current target?

Perhaps you will next try to claim that hearing a gun go off and being hit by the bullet is the same thing.

And perhaps I won't. You might notice that the displayed firepower of Q-guns are, in their own dimension, rather less impressive than causing stars to explode. A) firepower of said Q-gun is obviously finite. B) Highest demonstrated firepower that we can assume is caused by Q-guns is that of supernovae. C) Said Q-gun can wound or kill Q.

Anything else is conjecture.

2: It's from TNG. Picard accused the Q of being fearful that humanity could eventually surpass the Q, and Q didn't deny it convincingly. Yes, Q was about to wipe out humanity twice. Maybe you should stop to think about why the Q seriously considered that. It is in itself positive proof that the Q considered humanity a potential threat.

Q SAID why they wanted to wipe out humanity, because of their inferior moral character.

Yes he did. I'm not inclined to take the word of someone who enjoys mindgames and half-truths constantly over demonstrated actions.

Absolutely nothing proves the Q to be of anything near god-like stature. Join the Dark Side instead, we have more fun.

Yeah, and Vader doesn't REALLY force choke. He, uh, hace a bunch of hidden miniature tractor beams built into his glove, yeah!
Please, you're taking on screen and spoken evidence and twisting it around every which way to try and de-power the Q. The thing known as "burden of proof" has just dropped onto your lap.

I'm not twisting anything, rather you are. You want me to accept things unseen and unexplained, rather than relying on evidence. Nor have I mentioned Vader or anything SW related up to this point at all. I'm keeping this strictly within ST, since a comparison would ultimately have to rely on conjecture. It's not like there's firepower calculations for Q to measure up with. I don't have any burden of proof, and you don't have any proof. Let's leave it at that.

[Darth Fanboy]

Q even tries anything, and the pale blue ghost of Mace WIndu will beat his skinny white ass all the way back to the Continuum

[Darth Wong]

I find it amusing that some people would act as though Q-fraud is an unreasonable hypothesis, when any Trekkie knows that Q is the most dishonest, weaselly little shit in Trek history.

[Yogi]

And perhaps I won't. You might notice that the displayed firepower of Q-guns are, in their own dimension, rather less impressive than causing stars to explode. A) firepower of said Q-gun is obviously finite. B) Highest demonstrated firepower that we can assume is caused by Q-guns is that of supernovae. C) Said Q-gun can wound or kill Q.

Anything else is conjecture.

Replace "Highest demonstrated firepower" with "lowest possible firepower". You know the guns can at LEAST generate that much power, and since it wasn't being aimed at the sun the bulk of it's power must be going elsewhere (to another Q, perhaps?)
As for looking impressive, it is clearly stated that the Q continum is being presented in a form that humans can understand. How impressice something looks does not matter. In the first representation, the Continum was a shack in the desert, in the next it was a much larger battlefield.

Yes he did. I'm not inclined to take the word of someone who enjoys mindgames and half-truths constantly over demonstrated actions.

Actually, it fits perfectly with the action of Q. Q has always been after the human's moral side. In each encounter it's either the Q chastising the humans for their moral failings and teaching them a lesson, testing their moral character, or wanting something from their moral character. Given the fact that humanity might one day surpass Q, it makes sense for them to give humanity increased moral character.

I'm not twisting anything, rather you are. You want me to accept things unseen and unexplained, rather than relying on evidence. Nor have I mentioned Vader or anything SW related up to this point at all. I'm keeping this strictly within ST, since a comparison would ultimately have to rely on conjecture. It's not like there's firepower calculations for Q to measure up with. I don't have any burden of proof, and you don't have any proof. Let's leave it at that.

Nice dodge, but the fact remains that you are going against statements by both Q, and "trustwothy" humans who have had Q-like powers. Q may not be the most trustworthy person in the world, but it's still his word against . . . well . . . against what exactly? What is the weight of counter evidence against it? It is "they could have used tech" and "we have no proof" but no "positive" evidence.
Well, there is Q's comment that Q are not omnipotent. Fine, they aren't. That would place a Q below Living Tribunal level, but against people in the Star Trek/Star Wars power scale, that doesn't mean much.

[nightmare]

First I'd like to say that I would have replied earlier if I could see the post. (I read about the reply trick in the announcements forum).

1. "Highest demonstrated firepower" is perfectly correct, since the lowest demonstrated firepower is that of muskets. I contribute the stars going supernova to the Q-guns, but it's not explicitly so.

Naturally, I'm well aware that what we saw of the continuum wasn't the real thing, but a representation. Otherwise I would claim that Q can be killed by muskets.

2. I notice that we agree on this now: "Given the fact that humanity might one day surpass Q". Mayhap it makes bit sense about their intent of improving the moral character of the humanity, even though the Q would be the worst teachers possible, given their amoral tendencies. Federation humanity, and indeed most races in ST has displayed superior ethics over the Q. In this case, I think "morals" should be interpreted as "don't kill us when you get the chance."

3. We have witnessed the Q use technology, by visuals and dialogue. Granted, the visual impression of the continuum may not be reliable, but we also have the statement from Q's girlfriend. "They may be humans, but they are wielding our weapons." (Note - just out of memory, so it's not an exact quote, though the meaning is correct.)

I pretty much agree with your final conclusion with one addendum: "Well, there is Q's comment that Q are not omnipotent. Fine, they aren't. That would place a Q below Living Tribunal level, but against people in the Star Trek/Star Wars power scale, that doesn't mean much."

a) They are above almost all people in ST and SW alike. Kevin Uxbridge said he wiped out all the Husnock "everywhere". Billions of them. We never saw it, but we don't have any reason to expect he was lying at that point either. That and the other things he did demonstrates more power than the Q has demonstrated. There are a few other very powerful aliens that has appeared as well that might rival the Q.

b) Like I said, certain things in the EU has demonstrated a similar power level. The Sun Crusher can initiate supernovae in stars, ancient Sith lords did the same with ships, and later Exar Kun and a Sith amulet did it too. The "valley of the jedi" (Jedi Knight game) would grant that kind of power as well. Gameplay isn't canon, but the existance of the valley can't be refuted.

[Zoink]

I find it amusing that some people would act as though Q-fraud is an unreasonable hypothesis, when any Trekkie knows that Q is the most dishonest, weaselly little shit in Trek history.

Agreed.

Compare and contrast Picard and crew's reaction to Kevin Uxbridge (the douwd) vs Ardra (the devil!)

In the Ardra episode, Picard is faced with a being of almost omnipotent power. Ardra can seemingly teleport around at will, and do the same to other, change shape, cause earthquakes, etc... Picard, in a flash of rationality, uses Occam's Razor to conclude that the most likely explanation is that Ardra is a fraud. It turns out he is correct. Ardra has a cloaked ship and is using advanced transporters, tractor beams, and holoemmiters to pull off her stunts.

In the douwd episode, Picard is faced with a being of almost omnipotent power. Picard is attacked by a Husnock vessel that appears to come out of no where. Kevin can seemingly teleport around at will and cause telephatic harm to Troi. Picard's conclusion in this case? Kevin Uxbridge is clearly a being of great power.

However, like before, a ship that comes out of nowhere: a cloak perhaps. Teleport around at will: transporters. Troi: telepathic abilities. Destroyed husnock race: Kevin said he did it but we have no evidence he did. Destroyed colony: Kevin Uxbridge's ship.. the husnock vessel one and the same? The husnock vessel was clearly reacting to Kevin Uxbridge's wishes.. doesn't Occam's Razor say to investigate this angle first?

[Slartibartfast]

And, as I said, all it took was a punch from Sisko to send him crying to momma.

[Darth Servo]

In the douwd episode, Picard is faced with a being of almost omnipotent power. Picard is attacked by a Husnock vessel that appears to come out of no where. Kevin can seemingly teleport around at will and cause telephatic harm to Troi. Picard's conclusion in this case? Kevin Uxbridge is clearly a being of great power.

However, like before, a ship that comes out of nowhere: a cloak perhaps. Teleport around at will: transporters. Troi: telepathic abilities. Destroyed husnock race: Kevin said he did it but we have no evidence he did. Destroyed colony: Kevin Uxbridge's ship.. the husnock vessel one and the same? The husnock vessel was clearly reacting to Kevin Uxbridge's wishes.. doesn't Occam's Razor say to investigate this angle first?

Never expect logic from Trek.