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Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Actually its working title right now is Madden Wii.

That won't be its final title, but I kind of wish it was, because on one level that's one of the best things I've ever heard...

Didn't you say its final title should be 'Wii Love Madden'?

But yeah, implementing intuitive hand motion as the gamepad's primary movement control is a lot more innovative than simply bundling all the tried-and-successful gaming network features for a different platform. Big surprise there, Microsoft; you've already seen voicechat and matchups done by PC games. I myself was meeting up and chatting with people online with my Dreamcast 5 years ago. Calling the improvement and centralization of online play 'innovation' is like calling the SNES controller an innovation.

And I prefer advertising in a positive manner over demonizing the competition. I got tired of that with those Sega Genesis pussfucks a long time ago.

Vendetta wrote:

Bounty wrote:What was Sega's Genesis version called ? The Sega Channel or something ? Same thing. Xbox does it better, no question there, but it's really just a more mature version of old technology.

The wand, however, is an innovation.

Position sensitive 3D mice and gyroscopic tilt sensitive controllers already exist. I've got a Microsoft tilt sensitive controller for fuck's sake. It's not a brand spanking new idea that no-one has ever thought of before, it's just a way of bringing together existing capabilities in a product and supporting them properly with content. Which is what Live is. Bringing together things that people have already been doing, but doing it all in one place and making sure it has support. No-one had done that before, which is why it is innovative. In fact, it took ages for even Sony to even come up with a response to how well structured and featured Live turned out on the 360 beyond "yeah, well, we'll do all that with knobs on".

This isn't tilt sensing, this is tilt and motion AND depth sensing. There is nothing on the market that does all of this right now.

Praxis wrote:

Vendetta wrote:

Bounty wrote:What was Sega's Genesis version called ? The Sega Channel or something ? Same thing. Xbox does it better, no question there, but it's really just a more mature version of old technology.

The wand, however, is an innovation.

Position sensitive 3D mice and gyroscopic tilt sensitive controllers already exist. I've got a Microsoft tilt sensitive controller for fuck's sake. It's not a brand spanking new idea that no-one has ever thought of before, it's just a way of bringing together existing capabilities in a product and supporting them properly with content. Which is what Live is. Bringing together things that people have already been doing, but doing it all in one place and making sure it has support. No-one had done that before, which is why it is innovative. In fact, it took ages for even Sony to even come up with a response to how well structured and featured Live turned out on the 360 beyond "yeah, well, we'll do all that with knobs on".

This isn't tilt sensing, this is tilt and motion AND depth sensing. There is nothing on the market that does all of this right now.

The difference now is that there might be some quality games for such a controller.

Praxis wrote: This isn't tilt sensing, this is tilt and motion AND depth sensing. There is nothing on the market that does all of this right now.

Just as there isn't a product that does everything Live does right now. Xfire is the closest thing, but that doesn't have a built in search for things like demos and trailers, or I suspect additional content or patches for the games it supports.

Putting the pieces together in a way no-one has done before is innovation.

The key factor X-box Live is missing is the 'in a way no-one has done before. All of its features not only already existed, but they existed in the same contest and application of gaming networks. Live is simply repackaging and polish of what they worked on this decade and others have used with success; there's not new-fangled concepts or rethinking behind adding a search function. Why not just take an existing product and put a clock in it if you want panteted innovation?

The various motion sensors in the Wii controller, as far as I know, have not all been used as primary movement control for gaming, at least not mainstream or in a way one could simply have said 'yeah, it'll do what some other typical controllers do but with the tilt function from that Kirby Gameboy game'.

I saw some pictures of the upcoming Zelda game. Link was drawing his bow onscreen... and the guy playing the game was drawing the controller back just like Link was on-screen.

YES.

You know DP? we have an E3 game thread as a sticky That I worked hard on

But yes, the Zelda stuff looked very impressive in motion.
Infact, the Wii generally looked very impressive.

DPDarkPrimus wrote:I saw some pictures of the upcoming Zelda game. Link was drawing his bow onscreen... and the guy playing the game was drawing the controller back just like Link was on-screen.

YES.

I WATCHED a guy play Twilight Princess today. That's exactly what he did. You aim, put the nunchuck and Revmote together, pull back and let the arrow fly- and the speaker on the controller makes a "thwip" sound.

Praxis, write up in Sticky. NOW>

Utsanomiko wrote:

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Actually its working title right now is Madden Wii.

That won't be its final title, but I kind of wish it was, because on one level that's one of the best things I've ever heard... :)

Didn't you say its final title should be 'Wii Love Madden'? :P

But yeah, implementing intuitive hand motion as the gamepad's primary movement control is a lot more innovative than simply bundling all the tried-and-successful gaming network features for a different platform. Big surprise there, Microsoft; you've already seen voicechat and matchups done by PC games. I myself was meeting up and chatting with people online with my Dreamcast 5 years ago. Calling the improvement and centralization of online play 'innovation' is like calling the SNES controller an innovation.

The shoulder buttons on the SNES controller were an innovation, and one of the few that were actually well-executed by Nintendo on the first try.

Nintendo: We do it first so that others can do it right.

Praxis wrote:

DPDarkPrimus wrote:I saw some pictures of the upcoming Zelda game. Link was drawing his bow onscreen... and the guy playing the game was drawing the controller back just like Link was on-screen.

YES.

I WATCHED a guy play Twilight Princess today. That's exactly what he did. You aim, put the nunchuck and Revmote together, pull back and let the arrow fly- and the speaker on the controller makes a "thwip" sound.

HAHAHA, fuck yes indeed. Didn't know that's how it works.

Vendetta wrote:Putting the pieces together in a way no-one has done before is innovation.

Actually, it is because it requires an entirely new control scheme. Never before has a controller been designed to allow for someone to mime out the actions that occur on-screen, and that really includes PC games.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Vendetta wrote:Putting the pieces together in a way no-one has done before is innovation.

Actually, it is because it requires an entirely new control scheme. Never before has a controller been designed to allow for someone to mime out the actions that occur on-screen, and that really includes PC games.

The Power Glove also allowed that.

Yes, the power glove was an excellent representation of what was happening on-screen. Because if I was an Italian plumber who just waltzed off a cliff and was plummeting to my doom, I'd be flailing my arms ineffectually, too.

Master of Ossus wrote:Actually, it is because it requires an entirely new control scheme. Never before has a controller been designed to allow for someone to mime out the actions that occur on-screen, and that really includes PC games.

Not to this extent, no. There have been attempts though (mouse gesturing, or mouse movement capturing, especially in arcades, where custom control interfaces have been easier to include. (there's a lightgun game where it calculates your body posture with sensors and moves your viewpoint accordingly, so you actually really do duck behind cover etc.).

Before the Wii, that kind of stuff needed a custom input peripheral, like Samba de Amigo's maracas, DKK's bongas, or Guitar Hero's Gibson. Which basically put the entry barrier far too high.

Likewise, the need to run the infrastructure for content download and game matching meant that centralised online gaming and communities haven't been able to develop before. There have been attempts to move consoles online, but they've been crippled from birth by the extra cost of actually providing the online content and keeping it there for people to access.

As I said, putting existing things together (position, movement, and orientation sensing) in a way no-one has thought of before is innovation. I am not saying that the Wiimote is not innovative, I am saying that Live is. Two things can be innovative in different areas at once, you know.

By the same token, Sony's seeming intent to copy both without actually including any of the features that make them worthwhile, the Wii's complete redesign and total freedom of movement in the controller or Live's centralisation, may mean that they fall uncomfortably between the two stools. Their motion sensing controller will not get the same use or support as the Wii, and their online service will not have the stability or content that Live does, because each developer still needs to run their own content servers and game matching, shifting the cost model on to them, rather than Microsoft absorbing it with the Live Gold subscriptions and very deep pockets..

After ms's press conference yesterday, I'm gonna have to say that this Live Anywhere thing sounds really sweet. Sure xfire has something similiar where you can send a join a buddy's game with a single click, but never across platforms. Finally I can play with or against my console buddies on my pc, and with these new intel macs being able to run windows and play the games.. whoa More people to trashtalk!
I'm just imagining a console gamer driving a vahicle or flying a helichopter with the gamepad while the pc gamer is the gunner with the m/k and the apple users.. whip out photoshop and design the decals and color scheme lol
The latest games come and go with newer and better content always on the horizon, and controllers can be easily copied, but only m$ with their os monopoly can pull this off. Try stealing this concept sony lol
Fuck steam, fuck xfire, fuck whatever ea and blizzard has, I welcome our new live overlords

Lazarus wrote:For me, innovation has to be successful to really be called innovation. For example, I could take a squirrel, put roller skates on it, and sell it as a new eco friendly method of transport. But thats not innovation.

The 'Wii' has been getting worse and worse since I fist heard of it. Originally it was 'Huh. Thats interesting' then it was 'Yeah, thats retarded' now its 'Oh God please make it stop'. There is absolutely no incentive whatsoever for me to buy one of these hellspawn consoles, and every gamer I know is of the same opinion. Those few I'm aware of who are interested are only bothered because its Nintendo, and they love Nintendo. The design is entirely impractical, especially for outside Japan where acceptance of outlandish technological applications is much less widespread.

I totally agree. Just look at the spectacular failures of Dance Dance Revolution, Karaoke Revolution, and Guitar Hero, for example.

Sriad wrote:

Lazarus wrote:For me, innovation has to be successful to really be called innovation. For example, I could take a squirrel, put roller skates on it, and sell it as a new eco friendly method of transport. But thats not innovation.

The 'Wii' has been getting worse and worse since I fist heard of it. Originally it was 'Huh. Thats interesting' then it was 'Yeah, thats retarded' now its 'Oh God please make it stop'. There is absolutely no incentive whatsoever for me to buy one of these hellspawn consoles, and every gamer I know is of the same opinion. Those few I'm aware of who are interested are only bothered because its Nintendo, and they love Nintendo. The design is entirely impractical, especially for outside Japan where acceptance of outlandish technological applications is much less widespread.

I totally agree. Just look at the spectacular failures of Dance Dance Revolution, Karaoke Revolution, and Guitar Hero, for example.

All of which involved peripherials which can be used for only one game. A terrible example that detracts from your point. Think of the last time you used a DDR pad for anything but dancing, a microphone for something besides singing or (shudder) PS2's Lifeline, or the Guitar Hero guitar for any game except Guitar Hero.

Thought so.

So now that we have a single controller for all games, problem solved.

That sounded like the point; despite having specialized one-game controllers, games like DDR and Guitar Hero have been popular and well-received.

Although jumping around and playing six-strings is a lot more physical action than moving and pointing a remote. Some shmucks out there are going to be waving their arms around at the shoulder at all times, I'll wager.