Yet you continually say there are advantages to tribal patterns. It's in the section I quoted. I don't give a shit about unintelligent animals, we are not unintelligent animals. The rules became different when we became sentient. So saying it works for animals is a red herring.Sriad wrote:I've said from the start that I'm not defending racism.
Question: religion as a meme?
Moderator: Alyrium Denryle
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SirNitram
- Rest in Peace, Black Mage
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Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus
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Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus
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I'm arguing that there are some evolutionary advantages to tribal behavior, which manifests in humans as racism.SirNitram wrote:Yet you continually say there are advantages to tribal patterns. It's in the section I quoted. I don't give a shit about unintelligent animals, we are not unintelligent animals. The rules became different when we became sentient. So saying it works for animals is a red herring.Sriad wrote:I've said from the start that I'm not defending racism.
You are arguing that racism is morally reprehensible and evolutionarily harmful in the modern, post-tribal world.
As far as I can tell we don't disagree.
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SWPIGWANG
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I don't think the success of the popular modern religion can be pinned down to strictly retention of the members. Other ideas and religion can hold people in line very well as well, and survived thousands of years (say hinduism) however have little capacity in spreading. The lack of aggressive mega-invasion evangelization doctrine within the memeplex probably restricted it.
I think The success of the large monotheism lies in the idea itself.
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Tribalism as a meme fails in the modern world. A relatively small portion of the population of the world today follows tribalism. The simple fact that a nationalism organized group can easily crush tribals with its vastly superior economy of scale and centralized control means tribalism mostly survive in the hellholes of the world that the wealthy deem unworthy of invasion. Genetic selection might favor some sort of tribalism, however that force is far too weak compared to the sheer power of larger organizations. A few percent advantage at genetic selection is nothing when tanks roll over your mud houses.
I think history have shown a slow but steady growth on the "size" of the group people identify with. The increase in communications and the subsequent change in the limits on the size of effective organization enpowers the memeplex with the right scope for the time.
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But there is something more to this that no one have yet touched upon. If we go by this line of analysis the success of a meme is largely deterministic. Even if it is not, the only way to really defeat a flexible memeplex is to create something to replace it over in the long run with better propagation, organziation, power projection and retention. Fighting on an idea-by-idea basis probably would never make a lasting effect.
Maybe the loose organization of atheists and agnostics would never quite win because it is not an power projecting idea, but a largely passive one that people stumble on. It is more like a mutation than a force.
I think The success of the large monotheism lies in the idea itself.
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Tribalism as a meme fails in the modern world. A relatively small portion of the population of the world today follows tribalism. The simple fact that a nationalism organized group can easily crush tribals with its vastly superior economy of scale and centralized control means tribalism mostly survive in the hellholes of the world that the wealthy deem unworthy of invasion. Genetic selection might favor some sort of tribalism, however that force is far too weak compared to the sheer power of larger organizations. A few percent advantage at genetic selection is nothing when tanks roll over your mud houses.
I think history have shown a slow but steady growth on the "size" of the group people identify with. The increase in communications and the subsequent change in the limits on the size of effective organization enpowers the memeplex with the right scope for the time.
----
But there is something more to this that no one have yet touched upon. If we go by this line of analysis the success of a meme is largely deterministic. Even if it is not, the only way to really defeat a flexible memeplex is to create something to replace it over in the long run with better propagation, organziation, power projection and retention. Fighting on an idea-by-idea basis probably would never make a lasting effect.
Maybe the loose organization of atheists and agnostics would never quite win because it is not an power projecting idea, but a largely passive one that people stumble on. It is more like a mutation than a force.