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Lucas has changed his mind before, he can change it again. That's the maddening thing; we really have no idea what he will do.

Vympel wrote:

Galvatron wrote:Thus, the very fact that Lucas made the change at all is how we can conclude that he supposedly "always intended" for it to be that way.

So when Spielberg changed the guns to walkie talkies in ET he must've always intended it to be that way?

I guess so. I don't know. Who cares? Does Spielberg crow endlessly about his "original vision" for ET? It's a red herring anyway because we're not talking about Spielberg.

Vympel wrote:That's pretty lame- Lucas never said "I always intended for Greedo to shoot first" did he?

He didn't have to say it, he friggin' did it. The Star Wars SEs are allegedly "closer to his original vision." That's been the official party line since their release. Ergo, all the changes he made were supposedly done in order to realize that goal, up to and including the "Greedo shoots first" dreck.

Sounds like bullshit doesn't it? Don't buy it? Neither do I. That's my point!

Vympel wrote:

Galvatron wrote:You're right, that is a strawman; but it's one of your making because no one accused him of saying that.

Actually that's precisely what you're saying- especially considering the laughable contention that because he replaced his plan to have an animatronic/stop-motion Jabba in ANH with a CGI Jabba, he obviously didn't "always intend" it. Just how far back do you want to go? If you go back to 1975 when he was trying to right drafts, of course the statement 'always intended' has no meaning whatsoever- that's not what any sane writer would mean when they said that they 'always intended' something.

You're going off on a tangent. I'm not picking nits over the FX methods he was going to employ, simply his stated intention to revisit and change that scene at all. Was Jabba "always intended" to be an alien slug or, as I believe, did Lucas come up with that later on during the filming of ROTJ?

"Jabba, you're a wonderful human being." -Han Solo

Galvatron wrote: He didn't have to say it, he friggin' did it. The Star Wars SEs are allegedly "closer to his original vision." That's been the official party line since their release. Ergo, all the changes he made were supposedly done in order to realize that goal, up to and including the "Greedo shoots first" dreck.

No wonder you're so worked up about it- tell me do you take the improved CGI in ANH SE to be what he "always intended" too? You're being truly pedantic now.

You're going off on a tangent. I'm not picking nits over the FX methods he was going to employ, simply his stated intention to revisit and change that scene at all. Was Jabba "always intended" to be an alien slug or, as I believe, did Lucas come up with that later on during the filming of ROTJ?

Him cutting the scene because he didn't have the money might give you an indication.

"Jabba, you're a wonderful human being." -Han Solo

"Of all the souls I have encountered, in my travels, his was the most ... human." Kirk about Spock (who is not human)

So what?

Darth Wong wrote:Lucas has changed his mind before, he can change it again. That's the maddening thing; we really have no idea what he will do.

The car's going 160 miles per hour and there's noone behind the wheel! AAAH

What's infuriating is his canon policy.First it was movies,scripts,novels,radios etc etc etc.

Then Lucasfilm changed it to include all EU material,save for RPG tales in the SW Insider.

Then it was changed to reflect that only movies are the ultimate source,everything else is secondary.Again,SW Insider.

Make up his mind for god sake.

At least we knew to ignore the "EU" fact that Leia was 2 years older than Luke in ANH because they're twins in ROTJ.This?

Vympel wrote:

Galvatron wrote:Was Jabba "always intended" to be an alien slug or, as I believe, did Lucas come up with that later on during the filming of ROTJ?

Him cutting the scene because he didn't have the money might give you an indication.

If I'm recalling correctly, Jabba was always meant to be an alien. However, the original concept (based on what I remember about the first movie's conceptual art) was something closer to a wookie than a slug, a big hairy beast.

The scene's also in the novelization, which was based on Lucas's earlier scripts. That might give an indication as to Lucas's original idea. The Marvel Comics adaptation featured that scene with an alien Jabba, but it was one of the humanoid aliens from the cantina scene. I don't know how close that was to Lucas's ideas at that time.

-- Joe Momma

Vympel wrote:

Galvatron wrote:He didn't have to say it, he friggin' did it. The Star Wars SEs are allegedly "closer to his original vision." That's been the official party line since their release. Ergo, all the changes he made were supposedly done in order to realize that goal, up to and including the "Greedo shoots first" dreck.

No wonder you're so worked up about it- tell me do you take the improved CGI in ANH SE to be what he "always intended" too?

That's the party line. I didn't say I believe it. Quite the contrary, or have you completely missed the point of what I've been saying?

Vympel wrote: You're being truly pedantic now.

I've come to the right place then.

Vympel wrote:

Galvatron wrote:You're going off on a tangent. I'm not picking nits over the FX methods he was going to employ, simply his stated intention to revisit and change that scene at all. Was Jabba "always intended" to be an alien slug or, as I believe, did Lucas come up with that later on during the filming of ROTJ?

Him cutting the scene because he didn't have the money might give you an indication.

Directors cut scenes all the time for various reasons. Quite frankly, the entire Jabba scene seems redundant anyway. The Greedo scene was enough to establish Han's predicament.

Vympel wrote:

Galvatron wrote:Jabba, you're a wonderful human being." -Han Solo

"Of all the souls I have encountered, in my travels, his was the most ... human." Kirk about Spock (who is not human)

So what?

Another red herring, but I'll indulge it this once: Technically Spock was half-human, but that aside; Kirk meant "human" insofar as Spock exhibited what he considered the best qualities of humanity. This is a recurring theme in Star Trek, particularly in Spock's case.

"Spock, you want to know something? Everyone's human."
-Kirk in ST6

Kirk was speaking figuratively.

Han's line was altogether different. He outright called Jabba a human being. He was being literal (except for the sarcastic "wonderful" part). It only worked in the revised scene because the line could be reinterpreted as being facetious.

Of course, the dialogue in ANH forced a lot of ad hoc rationalizations in the sequels, so this is nothing new...

Stupid yellow text looks horrible on the default silver theme.

OK, I know I'm not being insightful when I say this, but

IT'S GEORGE'S FRANCHISE, IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, WHO CARES?

It's one thing to be pissed of at B&B for their crapping on Roddenbery, but Star Wars is Goerge Lucas's, and he has all the legal and moral right to do with it as he pleases. If you don't like it, then just don't watch the movies, don't buy the LEGOs, etc. Go off and create your own sci-fi series. Just don't let is suck as bad as "Portal".

His Divine Shadow wrote:Stupid yellow text looks horrible on the default silver theme.

So? I always intended for it to look that way.

Wicked Pilot wrote:OK, I know I'm not being insightful when I say this, but

IT'S GEORGE'S FRANCHISE, IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, WHO CARES?

It's one thing to be pissed of at B&B for their crapping on Roddenbery, but Star Wars is Goerge Lucas's, and he has all the legal and moral right to do with it as he pleases. If you don't like it, then just don't watch the movies, don't buy the LEGOs, etc. Go off and create your own sci-fi series. Just don't let is suck as bad as "Portal".

Well, Rodenberry churned out some crap too and he didn't need the help of B/B to do it. There was a time while Roddenberry was still alive that I was glad that he wasn't controlling everything. The first couple seasons of TNG blew and he was there. To me it seemed that shot first started getting decent when he had to cut back because of illness.

Anyway, I too find it annoying that George Lucas supposedly had something all worked out or planned out a long time ago. I think the probelm is that a lot of people have taken him literally like he had a JMS style "bible" for Star Wars when he's been clearly starting from near scratch with the scripts of each of the trilogies. He might have some storyideas in his head, vague or otherwise, that he has had a long time but that's it.

I guess what I find annoying about the so called long term plan is that I hoped that the Star Wars movies would be better. Certainly I've enjoyed all of them in one way or another but when it comes right down to it the best two are probably the unaltered versions of SW and ESB. It just seems that if Lucas had things planned out since the 70s you would hope things would have been refined a bit more by now so the new trilogy would be better than it is. Of course, maybe all that would be moot if Lucas had hired a director for the actors.

Galvatron wrote:

Vympel wrote:What did George Lucas always intend that has you sick of it? I don't think he's said it that many times at all.

Always intended to go back and insert a CG Jabba in ANH even though he had a fully costumed actor playing the part in the original scene.

I think the actual quote is that Jabba was in fact originally in ANH. He couldn't have "intended" to do a 'CG Jabba' in 1977 since the tech didn't even exist at that time I don't think.

Galvatron wrote:That's the party line. I didn't say I believe it. Quite the contrary, or have you completely missed the point of what I've been saying?

You've done a bait and switch. First you said it's George Lucas now you've moved the goalposts and being ultra-pedantic by assuming that everything done in the SE must have been what GL "always intended", even though he never said anything like that, because of some Lucasfilm blurb As I said, no wonder you're so worked up!

Directors cut scenes all the time for various reasons. Quite frankly, the entire Jabba scene seems redundant anyway. The Greedo scene was enough to establish Han's predicament.

George Lucas didn't think so. If you wanna criticize him as a filmaker, that's different from "always intended".

Another red herring, but I'll indulge it this once: Technically Spock was half-human, but that aside; Kirk meant "human" insofar as Spock exhibited what he considered the best qualities of humanity. This is a recurring theme in Star Trek, particularly in Spock's case.

No, it's not a red herring, it's a comparison. Han was poking fun at Jabba.

Vympel wrote:You've done a bait and switch. First you said it's George Lucas now you've moved the goalposts and being ultra-pedantic by assuming that everything done in the SE must have been what GL "always intended", even though he never said anything like that, because of some Lucasfilm blurb As I said, no wonder you're so worked up!

Hey, don't take my word for it. I'm just relaying what I've read since the SEs were released in '97. Here's just a few examples...

CNN.com wrote:It's the advances in digital filmmaking made by ILM and others that brought Lucas back to "Star Wars" to take advantage of new technology to restore the 20-year-old film and bring it closer to his original vision -- "my ulterior motive," he said.

rottentomatoes.com wrote:Though purists object to the revisionist dabbling, director George Lucas claims these versions more closely fit his original vision.

popcultmag.com wrote:20 years later, we are to believe that George Lucas has finally perfected Star Wars, that the "new and improved" version being released is really what he had originally intended for us to see.

psychotronic.com wrote:Every enhancement, every shot that Lucas has added is a detail that he'd originally wanted to include but could not, and reflects his original vision of the project.

Need I go on? Either Lucas is the unfortunate victim of a huge misunderstanding (one that's being perpetuated by his own company), or he actually intended us to believe all this "original vision" claptrap.

Darth Servo wrote:He couldn't have "intended" to do a 'CG Jabba' in 1977 since the tech didn't even exist at that time I don't think.

Forget I said CG. I take it back and shall now revise it to "special effects" (a more generic term).

You should be able to figure out what is and isn't original vision for yourself. Instead, you've presented all sorts of blurbs and lumped in each and every single change to the entire trilogy as if it was all part of his original vision- you'll never find George Lucas saying that he made Greedo fire first because it was part of his 'original vision'- he did it because he's much older and has gone all conservative on us, damn him.

I always thought that in those interview blurbs at the begining of each of the SE's Lucas does say something along the lines of: "This is what I always wanted to do but now with the effects of today I can do them."
He also does say that now this is the complete (of course until the NEXT SE) version of his story as it was always meant to be seen.

He's telling the truth with regards to some of the scenes, such as the ANH ending battle (which now looks much more like the original storyboards), Mos Eisley, and a few other things. But stuff like Greedo shooting first and the removal of a chest-burning shot from the DS detention centre are obviously motivated by something entirely different.

If a scene is changed to look more like the original storyboards or as depicted in the novel amd/or script, I figure it's genuinely closer to his "original vision". If it goes AWAY from his original storyboards and/or novel and/or script, then I figure he's engaging in revisionism.

Darth Wong wrote:He's telling the truth with regards to some of the scenes, such as the ANH ending battle (which now looks much more like the original storyboards), Mos Eisley, and a few other things. But stuff like Greedo shooting first and the removal of a chest-burning shot from the DS detention centre are obviously motivated by something entirely different.

If a scene is changed to look more like the original storyboards or as depicted in the novel amd/or script, I figure it's genuinely closer to his "original vision". If it goes AWAY from his original storyboards and/or novel and/or script, then I figure he's engaging in revisionism.

Who's hoping that the DVD release includes both the original OT and the SE OT?

Vympel wrote:Who's hoping that the DVD release includes both the original OT and the SE OT?

Won't happen. Lucas feels the SEs are the definitive versions of the OT. As such, releasing the true OT would be like releasing "rough cuts."