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Galvatron wrote:

Stofsk wrote:The idea that Vader's TIE was some unique prototype is one I'm not entirely sure I follow. The problem is we only see it once in the films, and never again. But why would it be the only one?

Precisely. It's a good thing Han said "there are a lot of command ships" in ROTJ. Otherwise, the EU would probably explain away the Executor as a "unique prototype" as well.

You mean they don't do that? Say it ain't so!

And if it WAS a prototype, why was Vader of all people flying it? Is he a test pilot as well as a Sith Lord? Is this another EUism?

Let's not forget that the EU also says it was "developed to Darth Vader's specifications."

Vader sure is versatile.

See above.

Even here the EU gave us the TIE Avenger. (then, impossibly, gave us the TIE Defender in the same timeframe - a fighter that's better in every way conceivable to everything anyone could ever hope to field. It has every goddamn doodad including the kitchen sink)

I loved those fighters back when I played the games, but now I see them as the utterly wanked-out pieces of EU garbage that they are.

The TIE Avenger ought to have filled the spot the Defender provided. But it didn't.

I'd be flying an X-wing myself.

I don't have a problem with your idea that TIE Avengers/Advanced/Vader's Hotrod was meant to be the long-range fighters while TIE Fighters and so on were the short range fighters.

Right on. How do you feel about "sandtroopers?"

Good. Same with Snowtroopers.

Are you saying there are people who opposed sandies?

Another question here: how would Ben the Hermit know what fighter craft the Empire fields? Does SW have a globalsecurity.org style holonet site? Or could he tell because TIE Fighters are similar in size to the kind of craft he himself flew during the Clone Wars? I'd lean towards the latter myself.

Without even invoking the EU or prequels, his experience as a military general and war veteran should explain his familiarity with such things well enough.

That's what I was thinking. I just thought the image of Alec Guiness slumped over a computer looking up Imperial fighters in addition to Twi'lek porn too funny to pass up. Obi-wan Kenobi, retired General and current Dirty Old Man.

I thought Anakin had his Jedi fighter modified to his specifications, but by ground crew?

Stark wrote:I thought Anakin had his Jedi fighter modified to his specifications, but by ground crew?

He is seen occasionally tinkering with bits of its of the under-carriage of his fighter, but I seriously doubt he personally hooked the huge hyperdrive drivers onto his Delta-7.

The EU doesn't claim that Vader's TIE Advanced x1 is unique. A number of those ships were built and given out to a few elite squadrons.

SW tech is styled like 'hot rodding', where anyone can tinker with their ships/droids etc and 'tune' them or fix them up a bit. It's quite different to go wholesale BUILDING or DESIGNING them. I can tune my car, but I couldn't fucking build one in a million years.

PS, Admiral Akbar designing the B-wing is also stupid. I know they later changed it to 'supervised the design of' or something, but we had to live with Admiral Akbar, Aerospace Engineer for decades.

Galvatron wrote:Could Vader's TIE have simply been one of these heavier, long-range models rather than some unique prototype?

The X1 was produced, but in limited quantities. We see a squadron of them in the Wheel arc in Marvel SW, deploying from a small star monitor. There's also similar ships elsewhere in the early years of EU. Then again, "limited production" on a galactic scale may not mean anything more than a few thousands or tens of thousands. :P

In terms of range, lets compare two maps of SW, both giving the same distance. Map one, map two.

Both show roughly the same distance, and I suspect it's not the largest fighter jump done in SW. If I recall correctly, in the first X-wing novel, we have Rogue Squadron going halfway around the disc.

Was it Luke or Han who had the "it followed us" line. Because if it was Luke, the "Short-range" line doesn't necesarily imply long-range models as well. Just that Luke is to much of a farmboy idiot to know Imperial fighters are short range.

Crazedwraith wrote:Was it Luke or Han who had the "it followed us" line. Because if it was Luke, the "Short-range" line doesn't necesarily imply long-range models as well. Just that Luke is to much of a farmboy idiot to know Imperial fighters are short range.

This is the same farmboy idiot who was the 'best bush pilot in the outer rim territories' and who wanted to join the Academy?

Uh huh.

EDIT: Not to mention Han said "You can relax I lost those Imperial slugs" while Luke was playing with his lightsabre. Which we can infer to mean that they were chased for sometime whilst in Hyperspace, and if Big Ships can chase the Falcon then so can long range snubfighters. Given that the TIE came out of nowhere directly behind them it's not an unreasonable inference to make on Luke's behalf, he wouldn't be so familiar with spacecraft to tell from eyeballing that it was short or long range, unlike General Kenobi - but he would be familiar with the concept.

I'll just point out that Dantooine was scouted out by Tarkin's forces with the Death Star obviously not being in the same system. The conclusion is that the Empire had scout ships equipped with hyperdrives, and it implies that they would have long-range TIE fighters stationed aboard when taken together with Ben's comment - without adding in any EU elements to it.

With the EU, it can be any kind of small ship, including the early TIE scouts since not all of the DS's complement is a known variable. Hell, it could be a Strike cruiser since the DS carried four.

Dude, Dantooine is inhabited. They could have just phoned the local unit and got them to do a drive past.

ARC Fighters were long range fighters

Galvatron wrote:

Can we infer from Ben's line in ANH that the Empire had long-range fighters that were visibly distinct from regular TIEs? Could Vader's TIE have simply been one of these heavier, long-range models rather than some unique prototype? I'm assuming, of course, that TIE interceptors and bombers don't qualify as such since they supposedly lack hyperdrives...

Just thinking outside the box (and strictly canon) again.

Well, Ben's intel is 18 years out of date at this time; and let's not forget the TIE scout, its not much larger than a standard TIE, and hyperspace capable. They seem prety old as well, at the very least pre-dating the Vader's custom, the Avenger, and the Defender. Besides, both the Anethersprite and TIE interceptor can be equiped wtih an internal HD, neither is very large.

I mean, they could have if the movie didn't explictly state 'ships'. 'Ships' doesn't sound like lameass little TIEs with radar dishes, though: surely they'd use troops.

Stark wrote:Dude, Dantooine is inhabited. They could have just phoned the local unit and got them to do a drive past.

Our scout ships have reached Dantooine.

Stark wrote:Dude, Dantooine is inhabited. They could have just phoned the local unit and got them to do a drive past.

Perhaps it was one of the few places without a major Imperial presence, or none. Perhaps they did not wish to alert the locals to them looking into the place possibly alerting the Rebels giving them a cance to flee.

The Fact that there was a former Rebel headquarters base here implies that there was no Imperial preasence at all. The Rebels would not have been so careless to put it close to a Imperial Base.

Aside from the canon fact that Tarkin sent out scouts, and what Isolder pointed out (which I thought was pretty obvious), I would also say it's perfectly logical that a military commander would send out his own forces first, and rely on any other commander's cooperation secondly. Tarkin was also supremely arrogant so even if the normal military pattern wouldn't apply well to him, I can't imagine Tarkin calling in favours from the closest Moff when he could just send out his own scouts to get a report in a few hours.

As a side note, I always thought that they inqiured Leia for a more detailled position of the rebel base. Hmm, anything more in the novel about this...?

If they just sent out scouts to Dantooine without knowing anything more than that, it's a pretty impressive feat by the scouts to locate the abandoned base in very short order. No people in it and no power means visual scouting from orbit. In a few hours over a whole planet - although since Dantooine is largely uninhabited might mean they could skip anything without infrastructure. That requires the base to be on the surface and not camouflaged in any way though, something like Yavin IV.

EDIT: Rewatching the scene, the DS had just arrived in the Alderaan system, Tarkin interrogated Leia, and proceeded to blow it up. Presumably he sent out scouts shortly after that, but I doubt now that they got any more details out of Leia after blowing up Alderaan. In any case, the DS was probably still in the outskirts of the Alderaan system when the scout's report arrived, since the order to go to Yavin IV came later and they didn't have any reason to go anywhere specific until then.

Furthermore, "They are now conducting an extensive search of the surrounding systems", adds to the above.

If I'm allowed to quote more EU, Dark Lord states that Sienar was building a custom fighter for Vader very shortly after the Clone Wars, when no or very few TIE craft were in existence. I like to think that that was the TIE Advanced x1 he flew at Yavin, and many more were produced, but they were phased out in favor for a larger number of cheaper fighters like the TIE/ln and the TIE Interceptor. That would mean Vader has been tinkering with the TIE he flew at Yavin for well over a decade, introducing updated components, and making it more dangerous than others of its phased-out type.

This neatly ties up (no pun intended) the dual EU ideas that "Vader had a custom fighter" and "there were whole squadrons of x1s." Unfortunately, its probably contradicted by some source, somewhere, saying that the classic TIE Fighter predates the x1. If so, that would mean Sienar's post-Clone Wars custom fighter is probably something we haven't seen before.

Anguirus wrote:If I'm allowed to quote more EU, Dark Lord states that Sienar was building a custom fighter for Vader very shortly after the Clone Wars, when no or very few TIE craft were in existence. I like to think that that was the TIE Advanced x1 he flew at Yavin, and many more were produced, but they were phased out in favor for a larger number of cheaper fighters like the TIE/ln and the TIE Interceptor. That would mean Vader has been tinkering with the TIE he flew at Yavin for well over a decade, introducing updated components, and making it more dangerous than others of its phased-out type.

This neatly ties up (no pun intended) the dual EU ideas that "Vader had a custom fighter" and "there were whole squadrons of x1s." Unfortunately, its probably contradicted by some source, somewhere, saying that the classic TIE Fighter predates the x1. If so, that would mean Sienar's post-Clone Wars custom fighter is probably something we haven't seen before.

It fills up the hole, but as Galvatron basically stated, he's wanting a more movie answer. He likely already has surmised the EU has filled it with their explaination.

I know, but the thread's sort of turned into an EU discussion, so I thought the Dark Lord reference could be relevant.

In any case, if you just look at the movies, the OP seems to have it right. The Empire has short- and long-range fighters, and their standard fighter is short-range...Vader flies a different fighter, with more extensive superstructure...Vader makes it back to civilization from the Yavin system on his own, so he's in a long-range fighter, which may or may not be a standard model. Not much more to discuss.

Either way, if a fighter that resembled Vader's flew in and fired on the Falcon, Luke would say "They followed us!" and Ben would probably say "Looks like it. Check the rear-view mirror for those Star Destroyers."

Anguirus wrote:I know, but the thread's sort of turned into an EU discussion, so I thought the Dark Lord reference could be relevant.

True, and one thing interestingly you didn't include but it does add an aspect of Vader having a personal fighter, is he sent his own personal plans for upgrades to Sienar.

So the EU does give an idea of that the X-1 was possibly Vader's baby project. Course the EU does make the TIE Advanced, Avenger, and Defender.

Ah, forgot that bit. I don't actually own the book. (Thank god for a college library that keeps up with new book releases...saved me a bundle.)

I'm sort of forgiving of the TIE Avenger and Defender, because the mechanics of that game were so silly anyways that one can easily imagine them not being nearly so uber as they are there. True, the EU does lend support to the coolness of the TIE Defender, but it also portrays X-wing pilots as preferring their "more durable" craft, and an X-wing pilot and T/D pilot of equal skill facing off and the X-wing pilot winning. That's obviously a divorce from the wanked game mechanics, because there's NO comparison in the game.

Hey nightmare, I beat you on correcting myself by two and a half hours. Do try to keep up.

Stark wrote:Hey nightmare, I beat you on correcting myself by two and a half hours. Do try to keep up.

The only thing I see is that you refer to the quote involving "ships", which is hardly explict evidence of self-correcting, although I figured that you might have checked the scene in question by then. In any case I felt it was useful to post the actual quote regarding the scene for everyone to see.

In preparation to make the movies, the star destroyers were planned to carry Tie Assault crafts, somewhat resembling to Vader's Tie.
Also a different prototype model was created seen here. (As I recall, a different image of it is on the Behind the magic disk.)

Since we have evidence for detachable hyperdrive pods, Kenobi's comment is somewhat weird now.
"- It could not follow us because it is a short range fighter.
- Emm, haven't you used short range fighters for long range travels?
- That was different! I was important at that time!
- Aren't the droids with us important now?
- I used hyperdrive rings! Can you see any hyperdrive rings? Well?
- Emm, we are in the middle of an asteroid field, we could barely catch this fighter right on top of us.
- Oh, shut up! The FORCE told me it had not followed us.
- OK."

The EU identify the scouts as the Lone Scout (maybe LSA-1), but it is not really fighter sized (one pilot and up to six passengers).