StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Motherfucker. I just downloaded that too. Literally. I just restarted after updating and came here and clicked this because I recognized it. Shit.

Ender wrote:Motherfucker. I just downloaded that too. Literally. I just restarted after updating and came here and clicked this because I recognized it. Shit.

Whats really fucking annoying is that Its the only update teh "add/remove" function says is unremovable.

Zac Naloen wrote:

Ender wrote:Motherfucker. I just downloaded that too. Literally. I just restarted after updating and came here and clicked this because I recognized it. Shit.

Whats really fucking annoying is that Its the only update teh "add/remove" function says is unremovable.

Yeah. So how hard is it to switch from Windows to Linux? I don't do any gaming, so that's not a concern for me. Is the interface easy to use? Will I have problems networking with other computers? Can I still run most commerical applications (eg iPod)? Is it a bitch to uninstall windows and install Linux?

Zac Naloen wrote:

Ender wrote:Motherfucker. I just downloaded that too. Literally. I just restarted after updating and came here and clicked this because I recognized it. Shit.

Whats really fucking annoying is that Its the only update teh "add/remove" function says is unremovable.

It is removable. You just have to search for the LegitCheckControl.dll files in your system folders and delete them. They aren't critical to the operating system and can be removed with ease. After that, no more Genuine Check problems.

General Zod wrote:

Zac Naloen wrote:

Ender wrote:Motherfucker. I just downloaded that too. Literally. I just restarted after updating and came here and clicked this because I recognized it. Shit.

Whats really fucking annoying is that Its the only update teh "add/remove" function says is unremovable.

It is removable. You just have to search for the LegitCheckControl.dll files in your system folders and delete them. They aren't critical to the operating system and can be removed with ease. After that, no more Genuine Check problems.

so doing so won't break anything?

Im very wary of deleting .dll's

Zac Naloen wrote:

General Zod wrote:

Zac Naloen wrote: Whats really fucking annoying is that Its the only update teh "add/remove" function says is unremovable.

It is removable. You just have to search for the LegitCheckControl.dll files in your system folders and delete them. They aren't critical to the operating system and can be removed with ease. After that, no more Genuine Check problems.

so doing so won't break anything?

Im very wary of deleting .dll's

Everything's working the way it should on my comp so far. And it's worked according to other people that've used it. So, it's safe to delete as far as I can tell.

Ender wrote:Yeah. So how hard is it to switch from Windows to Linux? I don't do any gaming, so that's not a concern for me. Is the interface easy to use? Will I have problems networking with other computers? Can I still run most commerical applications (eg iPod)? Is it a bitch to uninstall windows and install Linux?

Not that difficult. Most distributions these days are designed to be installable and usable by actual humans. You'll need third party software for the iPod, but I expect sourceforge will have something.

The iPod should work fine with amaroK player, which has added support for it. I use that for my own Samsung player and it's fine. I'd suggest Ubuntu, which is all entirely free (as in beer and freedom) and has a lot of helpful software to get you using it the way you would Windows if you wish. Besides gaming, which is still being worked on for bug issues, you can emulate Windows apps. easy enough using WINE or VMware, so you can have the best of both worlds.

Admiral Valdemar wrote:The iPod should work fine with amaroK player, which has added support for it. I use that for my own Samsung player and it's fine. I'd suggest Ubuntu, which is all entirely free (as in beer and freedom) and has a lot of helpful software to get you using it the way you would Windows if you wish. Besides gaming, which is still being worked on for bug issues, you can emulate Windows apps. easy enough using WINE or VMware, so you can have the best of both worlds.

Seconding Ubuntu.

VMware requires a copy of windows though, Wine/Cedega doesn't, but those are less compatible.

Admiral Valdemar wrote:The thing that gets me is that the software constantly reports back to MS HQ on whether your copy is legit or not, or so I've read.

It doesnt report if your copy if legit or not when it "phones home". When it "phones home" it downloads a list of keys which have been blacklisted and any updates to WGA. This gives Microsoft the option of making the software self-destruct if a significant PR backlash occurs.

Xon wrote:It doesnt report if your copy if legit or not when it "phones home". When it "phones home" it downloads a list of keys which have been blacklisted and any updates to WGA.

This would seem to indicate that if you install it, and it doesn't hose you right out of the box, you can just have your firewall lock it down with no ill effects, and still have access to the other updates.

As I didn't hear about this nonsense until after I installed it in order to get at my other updates, that's the method I'll be trying.

Xon wrote:

Admiral Valdemar wrote:The thing that gets me is that the software constantly reports back to MS HQ on whether your copy is legit or not, or so I've read.

It doesnt report if your copy if legit or not when it "phones home". When it "phones home" it downloads a list of keys which have been blacklisted and any updates to WGA. This gives Microsoft the option of making the software self-destruct if a significant PR backlash occurs.

The question then becomes, when is a key blacklisted? Is it blacklisted after its activations run out or after how many activations? Folr older copies of the OS, there might have been a significant amount of reinstalls, which can cause trouble for the user whose license it is. I can understand things like leaked VLKs and generated keys, but otherwise it's nothing but a humongous pain in the ass. I've had it happen to me at work that I do a clean reinstall of XP, activate it and then Windows Update fucks it all up so completely that the only recourse is to reinstall again from scratch and activate it. Only got burned once by it, though, since the problem is caused by accepting a download of any graphics card drivers from Windows Update. The rest of the device drivers from there work rather well, at least the sound and network drivers do.

Edi

In the case of an OEM (the one you'd get from a small shop and have to activate, not the BIOS locked ones you get with an HP or Dell that don't require activation) copy, I believe the license is tied to the machine it was first installed on and if the mobo dies, your license dies with it.

Retail full install discs avoid this problem, but they cost significantly more than the OEM or Upgrade versions do

As to why WGA phones home more than once, my guess is that one reason is to detect pirates who 'ghost' a legit install and then try to put that on several more identical machines.


My desktop machine is a homebrew that has XP Home courtesy of a retail XP Home upgrade copy that accepts my $5 eBay'ed CD of Win98SE as proof of eligibility.
It's a bit of a hassle, but the Upgrade disc isn't tied to the mobo, so I can install it with no problem when I rebuild my machine in the future*.







*I ran the Vista Beta for a while and I don't see any reason to switch to Vista until SP1 comes out at the earliest.

Glocksman wrote:In the case of an OEM (the one you'd get from a small shop and have to activate, not the BIOS locked ones you get with an HP or Dell that don't require activation) copy, I believe the license is tied to the machine it was first installed on and if the mobo dies, your license dies with it.

If you're on good terms with the shop that sold you the machine, you could feasibly go back to it in case your hdd dies and ask them to reinstall. OEM owners have an unlimited license to install it on as many machines as they see fit provided they're for re-sale of said machine.

Retail full install discs avoid this problem, but they cost significantly more than the OEM or Upgrade versions do

Of course, the main reason they cost vastly more than the OEM or the upgrades is fairly reasonable. . .since the OEM is meant for small business owners or similar installing them on machines for resale. . .and the upgrade assumes you've already paid for a Windows license.

Edi wrote:The question then becomes, when is a key blacklisted? Is it blacklisted after its activations run out or after how many activations? Folr older copies of the OS, there might have been a significant amount of reinstalls, which can cause trouble for the user whose license it is. I can understand things like leaked VLKs and generated keys, but otherwise it's nothing but a humongous pain in the ass.

AFAIK, the blacklist only refers to VLKs. It does not work with the activation system (which by design phones home anyways, so it doesn't have to be handled).

Glocksman wrote:In the case of an OEM (the one you'd get from a small shop and have to activate, not the BIOS locked ones you get with an HP or Dell that don't require activation) copy, I believe the license is tied to the machine it was first installed on and if the mobo dies, your license dies with it.

I think you can go for motherboard replacements, too?

Psycho Smiley wrote:

Xon wrote:It doesnt report if your copy if legit or not when it "phones home". When it "phones home" it downloads a list of keys which have been blacklisted and any updates to WGA.

This would seem to indicate that if you install it, and it doesn't hose you right out of the box, you can just have your firewall lock it down with no ill effects, and still have access to the other updates.

As I didn't hear about this nonsense until after I installed it in order to get at my other updates, that's the method I'll be trying.

While that would work, you would still get prompted to download the updates if you ran windows updates.

edi wrote: The question then becomes, when is a key blacklisted? Is it blacklisted after its activations run out or after how many activations?

Who know, or really cares, about how a key gets blacklisted. Any widely known keys released to the public and keys outside ranges which Microsoft has released can and probably will be blacklisted once Microsoft knows about it.

Also, it is fairly trivial to change the product key of an installed copy of windows. You dont need to reinstall to change the key.

phongn wrote:

Edi wrote:The question then becomes, when is a key blacklisted? Is it blacklisted after its activations run out or after how many activations? Folr older copies of the OS, there might have been a significant amount of reinstalls, which can cause trouble for the user whose license it is. I can understand things like leaked VLKs and generated keys, but otherwise it's nothing but a humongous pain in the ass.

AFAIK, the blacklist only refers to VLKs. It does not work with the activation system (which by design phones home anyways, so it doesn't have to be handled).

An article on The Register that dealt with the problems of WGA specified that they affect all copies, not just VLK ones, though the VLK blacklists have existed for quite a while. I've run into a couple of bootleg ones at work, and they refuse to update (which is how I found them out).

phongn wrote:

Glocksman wrote:In the case of an OEM (the one you'd get from a small shop and have to activate, not the BIOS locked ones you get with an HP or Dell that don't require activation) copy, I believe the license is tied to the machine it was first installed on and if the mobo dies, your license dies with it.

I think you can go for motherboard replacements, too?

Somehow this seems to be arse-backwards. OEM copies are more versatile than retail full install copies. They just require different product keys. You can install any number of copies from a single OEM disc, but OEM installs are illegal unless the machine goes out with a valid certificate of authenticity (which is the litle lable you will find on e.g. brand name machines like Dells, IBMs, HPs and so forth. Each CoA has a different key. So if you bring a machine to a shop and the case has a CoA on it, you can install the version of Windows specified on it, or any prior version of Windows, completely legally.

The activation limits are tied to individual keys, not individual discs as such. Though the retail full install versions have (afaik, but I could be wrong) have only one valid key specific to that disc. Once it runs out of its allotted activation quota, you need to activate every reinstall by phone.

If your motherboard croaks, switch it out for a new one and you will need to reactivate the installation as if t were new if it's even feasible in the first place. If the hardware is too different (e.g. changing from an AMD processor and matching mobo to an Intel based setup), you're going to have to nuke and reinstall, but the product key on the CoA and the OEM disc don't give a shit about the actual hardware setup.

I have never heard of BIOS-locked Windows installs, and they sound completely retarded anyway. What the hell happens at BIOS upgrade time? Windows stops working?

Edi

Nothing happens when the BIOS is upgraded unless you flash it with a (for example Dell) a non-Dell BIOS.
All a BIOS lock does is check the BIOS ID string to make sure that it's a Dell mobo and it'll install without using a CD key and without having to go through WPA.
You can still use the Dell CD to install on other machines, but you'd need a vaild OEM XP CD key and it'd have to be a legit key to pass WPA.

Of course the piracy threat here that MS has seemed to overlook is that Dell (or HP/Compaq or any of the other big OEM's who use BIOS locked install discs) owners who have Home preinstalled can get a 'legit as far as WGA is concerned' pirate upgrade to XP Pro merely by downloading a copy of their machine maker's XP Pro install disc off of the usenet.

phongn wrote:

Glocksman wrote:In the case of an OEM (the one you'd get from a small shop and have to activate, not the BIOS locked ones you get with an HP or Dell that don't require activation) copy, I believe the license is tied to the machine it was first installed on and if the mobo dies, your license dies with it.

I think you can go for motherboard replacements, too?

I've seen on Ars where people who buy OEM copies for their own builds have been able to do that when the mobo dies by calling MS and explaining the situation, but I tried that with a Gateway OEM key for a customer whose Gateway died and the phone drone told me flat out that he was sorry, but the windows license for that machine died when the computer itself did.

I could have located a replacement Gateway mobo and made it work, but the machine was a S423 P4 with 128megs of RDRAM.
After discussing it with the customer, he decided to go with a MSI nforce2 IGP mobo with a Barton 2800+ and 512 megs of RAM, along with a new OEM copy of XP Home.


EDIT: added.

Though the retail full install versions have (afaik, but I could be wrong) have only one valid key specific to that disc.

My understanding was that the retail and upgrade discs worked the same way as an OEM disc: if the CD key is valid, matches the range issued for the manufacturer of your machine (in the case of an OEM key), isn't outside of the range of keys MS has issued, and isn't already in use on another machine, you pass both WPA and WGA.
But I could be wrong as well, so if anyone has concrete info I'd appreciate it being posted.

Glocksman wrote:I've seen on Ars where people who buy OEM copies for their own builds have been able to do that when the mobo dies by calling MS and explaining the situation, but I tried that with a Gateway OEM key for a customer whose Gateway died and the phone drone told me flat out that he was sorry, but the windows license for that machine died when the computer itself did.

It could also be a difference in how MS does business in different countries. The consumer protection laws here mean that they'd get assraped in court if they pulled that shit with a customer, since the motherboard is just a part of the computer and not the whole computer. I've needed to explain exactly once why a customer's machine needed reactivation, the rest of the time all they asked was if the same key had been used on another machine and I answered "no". It's quite possibly different in the US, but I suspect the phone drone was just being an asshole.

Glocksman wrote:

Edi wrote:Though the retail full install versions have (afaik, but I could be wrong) have only one valid key specific to that disc.

My understanding was that the retail and upgrade discs worked the same way as an OEM disc: if the CD key is valid, matches the range issued for the manufacturer of your machine (in the case of an OEM key), isn't outside of the range of keys MS has issued, and isn't already in use on another machine, you pass both WPA and WGA.
But I could be wrong as well, so if anyone has concrete info I'd appreciate it being posted.

It's quite possible that you're correct. I think the retail and OEM keys come from different ranges, so if the CDs only accept keys from their own range, it explains everything.

Edi

Xon wrote:

edi wrote: The question then becomes, when is a key blacklisted? Is it blacklisted after its activations run out or after how many activations?

Who know, or really cares, about how a key gets blacklisted. Any widely known keys released to the public and keys outside ranges which Microsoft has released can and probably will be blacklisted once Microsoft knows about it.

I'm actually somewhat curious about whether or not Microsoft has mechanisms to detect leaked VLKs, or if they just have some guy in the basement trolling the warez sites to find the most common ones.

Also wondering what kind of hassle it is for an organization to have to go through and change the keys on their computers if their VLK gets blacklisted.

Uraniun235 wrote:Also wondering what kind of hassle it is for an organization to have to go through and change the keys on their computers if their VLK gets blacklisted.

This is where thier lawyers and Microsoft Lawyers go rape thier respective companies for more money. I also suspect leaking of the VLK would result in someone getting the sack.

Privately used VLK which have been given to companies are basicly imposible to track without someone informing Microsoft. It is when some idiot puts it on the web and someone reports it that it would be blacklisted.

Edi wrote:The question then becomes, when is a key blacklisted? Is it blacklisted after its activations run out or after how many activations? Folr older copies of the OS, there might have been a significant amount of reinstalls, which can cause trouble for the user whose license it is. I can understand things like leaked VLKs and generated keys, but otherwise it's nothing but a humongous pain in the ass. I've had it happen to me at work that I do a clean reinstall of XP, activate it and then Windows Update fucks it all up so completely that the only recourse is to reinstall again from scratch and activate it. Only got burned once by it, though, since the problem is caused by accepting a download of any graphics card drivers from Windows Update. The rest of the device drivers from there work rather well, at least the sound and network drivers do.

Prior to this update, things were slightly smoother, but starting sometime this year (March, I think?) Their policies got a bit crueller about just letting you click "Activate over the Internet".

If it wasn't a first-time installation now, you have to call, even for a repair installation. ****ing annoying. The new WGA tool is only designed to trap a few more people.

That said, at least as of June 29th, the support people at the call center were very helpful, even if their network did crash the first time I called (that was amusing)

Edi wrote: It could also be a difference in how MS does business in different countries. The consumer protection laws here mean that they'd get assraped in court if they pulled that shit with a customer, since the motherboard is just a part of the computer and not the whole computer. I've needed to explain exactly once why a customer's machine needed reactivation, the rest of the time all they asked was if the same key had been used on another machine and I answered "no". It's quite possibly different in the US, but I suspect the phone drone was just being an asshole.

He may have been, but I'll bet Finland's laws have more to do with it as I'm sure ours are more 'corporate friendly'.

I don't have access to it anymore since my subscription expired, but on MS's system builder site they have a FAQ about windows licensing schemes and IIRC the OEM license is tied to the motherboard on prebuilt machines such as Dell and Gateway because that's the one part in a computer that is uniquely ID'd as being by that manufacturer.

My experience with the Gateway owner bore this out as his key would let me install Windows, but it'd fail WPA and for shits and giggles I ran WGA validation anyway and got a message saying that the manufacturer of the computer doesn't match the one listed on the CoA.


I've *heard* but don't know if it's true, that in the case of an individually purchased generic OEM copy (like one you'd get from Newegg), that the hardware hash generated when you run WPA is only stored for a few months by MS and you can sucessfully reuse your OEM key on a new machine if you just let the time go by.

I've only dealt with generic OEM copies, so I'll defer to you on the BIOS locked ones.

Edi