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To be a truely strong military force requires more than just a lot of ships. It requires a force to have a wide range of tactics open to them as well. The Imperial Sector Fleets were all tied down to thier respective territories. The New Republic Fleets on the other hand only patrol local sectors, they don't occupy them. The Imperial fleet was larger because it was an occupation force.

The 5th fleet, though in contention, proved it's worth to the New Republic. It was very succesful in tracking down and eliminating Yevethan infrastructure and taking down enemy capital ships.

"That's countered by simply building more fighters of Avenger and Defender design, there are
Also, support ships ranges from frigates and smaller capital ships, all capable of trans-galactic ranges." - HDS

Unfortunatley we will never see any of those types of fighters again. The original Empire itself decided not to mass produce those fighters even when they had the resources to do so.

That is the differance between the Imperial and Republic fleet. The Imperials always had to have some sort of capital vessel deployed to the immediate vicinity of an engagement. The Republic Capital vessels on the other hand can stay an hour away at hyperspace while fighters do the work.

Supposedly, Avengers and Defenders were slated for mass production, but then the warlords took over, throwing everything into disarray.

Don't flame if I'm wrong.

To be a truely strong military force requires more than just a lot of ships.

And it requires more than just a few ships that are good at what they do.

It requires a force to have a wide range of tactics open to them as well. The Imperial Sector Fleets were all tied down to thier respective territories. The New Republic Fleets on the other hand only patrol local sectors, they don't occupy them. The Imperial fleet was larger because it was an occupation force

That is true, but thats also why it was stronger.
Ofcourse your assumption that the Imps do not have carriers or fighters capable of hyperspace for such missions is unlikely, there where many kinds of fighters in the universe, the TIE models where just the mainstray, that does not exclude the possiblity of dedicated carriers and fighters from existing.
The Imperator classes and subclasses are general usage ships, but they where only one kind of many ships, the allegiance for one was a battleship, other larger and smaller ships dedicated to different categories is not unlikely.

Unfortunatley we will never see any of those types of fighters again. The original Empire itself decided not to mass produce those fighters even when they had the resources to do so.

Oh I beg to differ, we did see other fighters coming into the Imperials usage after TIE standards where too unreliable, including scrapping ordinary TIE's for Interceptors fitted with shields.

That is the differance between the Imperial and Republic fleet. The Imperials always had to have some sort of capital vessel deployed to the immediate vicinity of an engagement. The Republic Capital vessels on the other hand can stay an hour away at hyperspace while fighters do the work

That though is an assumption, and not a likely one.
Even if they did only have a small amount of Avengers or Defenders or some other hyper-capable fighter aviable that's probably all they need for such missions, most of the time a cap-ship dropping of Interceptors should suffice.

Darth Yoshi wrote:Supposedly, Avengers and Defenders were slated for mass production, but then the warlords took over, throwing everything into disarray.

Don't flame if I'm wrong.

Noone will flame you if you return to your former avatar immediately

Avengers and Defenders weren't mass-produced since the Emperor feared defection of pilots with their fighters and the Defenders were much too expensive. The defection of GA Zaarin added to that.

HDS: don't forget your calcs are based on analysis from the Republic's weak period from 6-10 years after Endor (the Black Fleet Crisis 9 years post Endor to be exact).

The YV invasion was 12 years after the Black Fleet Crisis.

The Empire's infrastructure was able to build Death Stars and double the size of their fleet ANH to ESB w/out breaking a sweat, so I believe that when the Republic really began expanding back to at least the beginning of the Outer Rim it probably began churning out ships quickly. In fact shortages as of the Corellian Trilogy might be more due to the fact that the New Republic's ships are stretched thin compared to the number of worlds that kept joining. That couple year period after Palpatine's return was a bare minimum and the New Republic really upp-ed its fleet counts appropriately w/ the regain of territory throughout the galactic disk in the next decade after that period.

I also feel that the Black Fleet Crisis sources and calcs are somewhat suspect due to its typical EU microcosm view of the GFFA.

The author simply didn't see the GFFA in its proper scope. There has to be some explanation because the NR's activities and such just doesn't mesh w/ such an abysmally low fleet/member count.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The Empire's infrastructure was able to build Death Stars and double the size of their fleet ANH to ESB w/out breaking a sweat

This is not the Empire and the galaxy is fuxored.
It took the Empire 20 odd years to get back into such shape after the devastating clone-wars before they where able to build any deathstars, it took them 20 years to build 12500 ISD's and then after ANH they likely built the other 12500 ISD's, because that was when they started to get their infrastructure back in shape, likely the renewed conflict brought down the whole galaxy again and the New Republic had no intention or need to rebuild to imperial levels.

so I believe that when the Republic really began expanding back to at least the beginning of the Outer Rim it probably began churning out ships quickly

Not anywhere near OR or Imperial rates though.

In fact shortages as of the Corellian Trilogy might be more due to the fact that the New Republic's ships are stretched thin compared to the number of worlds that kept joining. That couple year period after Palpatine's return was a bare minimum and the New Republic really upp-ed its fleet counts appropriately w/ the regain of territory throughout the galactic disk in the next decade after that period.

Oh I'm sure they got some of it back, but not all of it.

I also feel that the Black Fleet Crisis sources and calcs are somewhat suspect due to its typical EU microcosm view of the GFFA

But in contrast the imperial numbers work out perfectly.

The author simply didn't see the GFFA in its proper scope. There has to be some explanation because the NR's activities and such just doesn't mesh w/ such an abysmally low fleet/member count.

Or he did do just that, given the figures we get for the Empire in return they make sense to me.

IceHawk-151 wrote:That is the differance between the Imperial and Republic fleet. The Imperials always had to have some sort of capital vessel deployed to the immediate vicinity of an engagement. The Republic Capital vessels on the other hand can stay an hour away at hyperspace while fighters do the work.

If I were an Imperial Admiral, I would simply love an enemy that allows me to kill their fighters without capital ships to back them up, and kill their capital ships without fighters to back them up. Especially carriers that are nothing more than glorfied shoeboxes.

Yes the New Republic fleets where made for small policing duties, a few x-wings or such can take on tramp freighters and smugglers without much trouble.

The NR seems to have created a fleet designed as a souped up police force, one that in design would require very little manpower and resources to maintain, heavily emphasizing high-quality fighters with a few mobile stations(carriers), I am guessing this was made possible thanks to marginal local fleets being allowed and planets not wanting to revolt, also the lack of a strong enemy is probably another very strong factor in that, ofcourse in the role of a war of attrition, it sucks, as the Vong showed.

nightmare wrote: If I were an Imperial Admiral, I would simply love an enemy that allows me to kill their fighters without capital ships to back them up, and kill their capital ships without fighters to back them up. Especially carriers that are nothing more than glorfied shoeboxes.

Those fighters each carry a minimum of 6 Proton Torpedoes. Y-wings carry 10, B-Wings 12, E-Wings 16. The dedicated bombers and X-WIngs carry heavy Torps designed to smash through sections of Imperial shielding.
I wish we knew the loadout of the K-wing. Those "egg" bombs seemed pretty damn impressive. I bet they'd really blast through Imperial shields.

And to get to NR Carriers an Imperial Strike force would have to battle past Republic-class Destroyers, Dreadnoughts, frigates, corvettes, Mon Calamari Star Cruisers and the multiple SHort-Range fighters carried onboard the Defender-class Carrier.

IceHawk-151 wrote:Those fighters each carry a minimum of 6 Proton Torpedoes. Y-wings carry 10, B-Wings 12, E-Wings 16. The dedicated bombers and X-WIngs carry heavy Torps designed to smash through sections of Imperial shielding

Ofcourse in return all it takes is AA fire galore and a bad shot and it's over for the fighter, while they'll rack up losses ALOT that way and have to try and get concentrated barrages at the same time, it is nearly impossible to do so, infact I don't believe it has happened a single time yet, the Rouge Squadron books are the only fighters ever to have destroyed ISD's and as I've been told they always had some help in some way by other forces, so I don't hold alot of hope for the fighters without some serious plot twists.

I wish we knew the loadout of the K-wing. Those "egg" bombs seemed pretty damn impressive. I bet they'd really blast through Imperial shields.

Not me though, IIRC they didn't punch through the Fatmen's shields.

And to get to NR Carriers an Imperial Strike force would have to battle past Republic-class Destroyers, Dreadnoughts, frigates, corvettes, Mon Calamari Star Cruisers and the multiple SHort-Range fighters carried onboard the Defender-class Carrier.

Thats ok because the Imperials have all those things, and the carriers fighters by this time are probably vapor in another system so there goes a large chunk of their defense.

Actually I feel the Imperial counts by WEG are very low too, HDS. I think of Marina's calcs as the most reasonable. Look at the Death Star. It's worth a million 1km cubes easily (disregarding hollow spaces of DS, which there are actually a lot of).

I'd think the NR would need a least 100,000 good capital ships to be a real galactic government in the NJO.

The Empire should have half a million ships 1 km and above to seem reasonable to merely patrol its sectors--not to mention the DS is the size of all of them.

His Divine Shadow wrote:

I wish we knew the loadout of the K-wing. Those "egg" bombs seemed pretty damn impressive. I bet they'd really blast through Imperial shields.

Not me though, IIRC they didn't punch through the Fatmen's shields.

I thought that was because too many pilots pulled out of their attack runs due to the Yevetha's psy-warfare tactics...in the final battle things went pretty well for the NR, granted that all the Imperial designed ships had jumped out...

KG

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Actually I feel the Imperial counts by WEG are very low too, HDS. I think of Marina's calcs as the most reasonable. Look at the Death Star. It's worth a million 1km cubes easily (disregarding hollow spaces of DS, which there are actually a lot of)

Ofcourse they're too low, the Imperial millitary was said not be at full strenght by the time of ESB/ROTJ, they'd need atleast another decade before they where at full strenght, IIRC it was in the Imperial Sourcebook.

I'd think the NR would need a least 100,000 good capital ships to be a real galactic government in the NJO

I have no problem with that.

The Empire should have half a million ships 1 km and above to seem reasonable to merely patrol its sectors--not to mention the DS is the size of all of them.

They might have 1-2 million ships in the 500m-1.6km range I'd guesstimate.

kheegan wrote:I thought that was because too many pilots pulled out of their attack runs due to the Yevetha's psy-warfare tactics...

Yes well as it seems if they need that many bombs to punch through the shields of a fatman, then they're gonna have serious problems with ISD's, even if they don't have hostages.

kheegan wrote:I thought that was because too many pilots pulled out of their attack runs due to the Yevetha's psy-warfare tactics...

Yes well as it seems if they need that many bombs to punch through the shields of a fatman, then they're gonna have serious problems with ISD's, even if they don't have hostages.

Hello everyone!
Did they actually need one?

Captian Archer wrote:Hello everyone!
Did they actually need one?

How are they supposed to deal with all the left overs of the empire and other trouble makers?

*poke the newbie*

Either they needed that many bombs to punch through the shields of the Armadia-class Thrustships, or else each group of fighters wanted to put those ships out of commision fast so that they couldn't engage the rest of the fleet.

Reasons for smaller Fleet

1) Systems begin to set up thier own defenses again for the first time since the Empire was founded thusly a large force is no longer required.
2) Imperial Fleet was an Occupation Force and thus needed to be everywhere. The NR Defense Fleet isn't tied down to individual systems (Except Coruscant) and can go anywhere at a moment's notice. Or in simpler terms, it's more mobile.
3) Long Range Strike Fighters with Hyperspace Capabilities allow for a single fleet to operate offensively at longer ranges. So they can cover the same amount of space with less ships.
4) NR doesn't tax heavily and could only get funding for a Defense Force that contained about 5,000 less capital ships (ISD Size Range I'd think).

IceHawk-151 wrote:Either they needed that many bombs to punch through the shields of the Armadia-class Thrustships, or else each group of fighters wanted to put those ships out of commision fast so that they couldn't engage the rest of the fleet

Ofcourse but said tactic would not be as effective against an ISD, a Fatman has only 4 medium/heavy TL's while an ISD has 120 laser cannons.
Them Fighters are gonna be dying by the truckloads.

3) Long Range Strike Fighters with Hyperspace Capabilities allow for a single fleet to operate offensively at longer ranges. So they can cover the same amount of space with less ships.

Not in a true war though, fighters are not viable in a war where the Enemy has heavy capital ships, fighters are essentially useless, this force was not created with a war in mind, it was created with policing in mind.

4) NR doesn't tax heavily and could only get funding for a Defense Force that contained about 5,000 less capital ships (ISD Size Range I'd think).

That was only during the Black Fleet Crisis era, we ought ot assume the republic should have recovered back to a 100k vessels atleast by the early NJO era.

Why wouldn't the fighters be usefull?

Thier manuverability and firepower make them lethal to anything smaller than a Star Destroyer automatically. In large numbers those fighters would be able to swarm over star Destroyers and nail Torpedoes all over the hull. Imperial accuracy seems to tapper off a bit at small ranges, a pair of y-wings skimming the hull of the ISD would be free to hit any target in front of them easily. If that target happened to be shiled emiters or heavy weapons the ISD isn't going to be useful for long.

God you don't get that a lot of EU scaling of the GFFA is just plain wrong.

If it were that easy to punch through an ISD's shields, don't you think no one would bother building such monstrosities?

Fighters alone cannot hope to penetrate the defenses of ISD-size vessels and above. Fighters are hopeless for stopping anything larger than an Imperial medium destroyer, apparently.

Show me an instance in the official realm where an ISD was verified to be shot down by fighters alone.

His Divine Shadow wrote:

IceHawk-151 wrote:Either they needed that many bombs to punch through the shields of the Armadia-class Thrustships, or else each group of fighters wanted to put those ships out of commision fast so that they couldn't engage the rest of the fleet

Ofcourse but said tactic would not be as effective against an ISD, a Fatman has only 4 medium/heavy TL's while an ISD has 120 laser cannons.
Them Fighters are gonna be dying by the truckloads.

Where does 120 laser cannons come from? I don't remember anything canon or official telling us that. I see we have light TLs/point-defense weapons on the SD, but they seem designed for taking out gunboats, shuttles, and boarding craft or corvettes and the like, not fighters. Otherwise why would the Empire commission KDY to build the Lancer-class?

I don't know where the 120 laser cannon number comes from, but the other part is easy to answer in the form of a question. Why did they put AA guns on WWII battleships, when they also had AA frigates and destroyers, dedicated for that sort of thing?

Yes but we have official evidence directly to the contrary which says that the SD's guns in general weren't optimal for engaging fighters.