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Lex wrote:/agree; in the german version of both book and film, one can see(imo) even better that Palpatine threw the fight in order to turn Anakin to the dark side

Can you elaborate on how the German version of the film seems to indicate that Palpatine threw the fight?

uhh not atm because I borrowed the book and I don't have the DVD at home but it was definitly my impression when i read/watched the scenes and I'll try to get hold of the book-copy and rent the DVD in the next few days to check again^^

Crazedwraith wrote:The novelisation is from Windu's PoV all it proves is Windu thinks he's winning fair and square.

Where does it state Windu thinks he's winning fair and square?

Palpatine's novel dialogue sems to indicate to me Windu's been suckered.

How so?

In the novel, after the window gets broken, Mace steps out on the ledge, and the narrative says he senses fear and apprehension in Palpatine. Then, after Mace disarms Palpatine, he says that Palpatine was "defeated by his own fear", to which Palpatine replies "Fool. Fool! Do you think the fear you feel is mine?", then launches a lightning assault. Take that as you will, and it goes on to state that Mace didn't have time to comprehend that statement.

Superman wrote:Just watched Ep 3 with commentary, and I noticed that Lucas stated that Palpatine was just 'pretending' to be weak during the fight with Mace. At first I thought Palpy threw the fight on purpose, then I thought that Mace probably did actually beat him, now I don't know which to think. He may have been pretending to be weak, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have won either.

Anyone else watch that with commentary?

I've listend to some of the commentary and I generally take it with a grain of salt. They commented that Grievous was somehow supposed to be inhnerently highly flammable (thre's a reason spontaneous combustion is a myth and its closest equivalent occurs only under very specific conditions.)

In the context of the movie, and all the other evidence, its clear that Mace kicks Palpy's ass in the straight up fight. Palpy even realizes this, which is why he pulled the "I'm horribly weak and dying" act to get Anakin to intervene- he KNOWS he can't kick Mace's ass in a stand-up fight, so he used Anakin to distract Windu.

Darth Quorthon wrote:In the novel, after the window gets broken, Mace steps out on the ledge, and the narrative says he senses fear and apprehension in Palpatine. Then, after Mace disarms Palpatine, he says that Palpatine was "defeated by his own fear", to which Palpatine replies "Fool. Fool! Do you think the fear you feel is mine?", then launches a lightning assault. Take that as you will, and it goes on to state that Mace didn't have time to comprehend that statement.

That doesn't necessarily indicate Windu's been suckered; it could mean two other things, at least: Palpatine is shitting his pants out of fear, and he's trying to throw Windu off; or Windu's picking up on Anakin's fear as he runs in.

EDIT: Check out this thread; in the context of director's intent, it pretty much settles that Lucas wanted to give less of an impression that Palpatine was throwing the fight.

Surlethe wrote:EDIT: Check out this thread; in the context of director's intent, it pretty much settles that Lucas wanted to give less of an impression that Palpatine was throwing the fight.

Well, it could also mean that it was too obvious initially and that it was changed because of that. However, I believe that Palpatine lost the lightsaber duel.

Surlethe wrote:

Darth Quorthon wrote:In the novel, after the window gets broken, Mace steps out on the ledge, and the narrative says he senses fear and apprehension in Palpatine. Then, after Mace disarms Palpatine, he says that Palpatine was "defeated by his own fear", to which Palpatine replies "Fool. Fool! Do you think the fear you feel is mine?", then launches a lightning assault. Take that as you will, and it goes on to state that Mace didn't have time to comprehend that statement.

That doesn't necessarily indicate Windu's been suckered; it could mean two other things, at least: Palpatine is shitting his pants out of fear, and he's trying to throw Windu off; or Windu's picking up on Anakin's fear as he runs in.

EDIT: Check out this thread; in the context of director's intent, it pretty much settles that Lucas wanted to give less of an impression that Palpatine was throwing the fight.

I always thought it was Anakin's fear that Windu was picking up on. It was the only thing that made sense to me, since both Palpatine and Windu seemed far too experienced. At any rate, even if Palpatine didn't throw the fight, I always thought it was a bit of a set-up; all that Anakin really needed to see was Palpatine being assaulted by a Jedi for him to spring his setup, IMHO.

The problem here is that the novelization introduces considerable metaphysical material into the equation. Mace Windu's Vaapad style was described as a sort of conductor of the dark side, and as a result the text describes his duel with Darth Sidious as "still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue," an "impasse" that "might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift." In strict terms of swordsmanship and psychokinesis, the two were evidently evenly matched: the novelization stresses that "the darkness had no power over him," but "neither did he have power over it."

However, Windu also had the unusual charism of being able to see "shatterpoints," which he describes in Shatterpoint as "spots where teh precise application of carefully measured force -- no more than a gentle tap -- will break [something] into pieces," calling them "vectors of stress that squeeze or stretch, torque or shear." Simply put, "when I look at you through the Force, I can see where you break." When he used this ability in his duel with Sidious, he followed the "largest fracture" in this "knot of fault lines in the shadow's future," and found to his surprise that it was Anakin Skywalker. To wit, Windu's clairvoyant vision told him that the key to defeating Sidious was Skywalker, not Sidious himself.

When Windu gained the upper hand in their duel, he thought he was using Sidious's fear against him, driving him toward the window "where the shadow's fear made it hesitate," "turned some of its Force-powered speed into Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete," taking advantage of this distraction to disarm him (in the film by kicking his lightsaber aside, in the novelization by cutting it in half with a sun djem blow, as per the stylized High Galactic vocabulary created to describe Jedi/Sith swordsmanship in "Fight Saber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat"). Sidious, however, is quick to mock Windu in the novelization: "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"

Windu's Force-powered empathy reveals that "Palpatine was not afraid" -- though Sidious may be a liar and manipulator, his taunt was honest enough -- and that in fact "he wasn't worried at all." It is here that the shatterpoint enters into play; Windu realizes that Sidious's shatterpoint -- and with it, "the key to final victory," "the absolute shatterpoint of the Sith," and even "the shatterpoint of the dark side itself" -- is his trust in Skywalker. He never for a moment doubted that Skywalker would save him, just as in Return of the Jedi he made no effort to defend himself from Luke Skywalker, supremely confident that Darth Vader would parry the blow.

It is consistent with Sidious's usual modus operandi to pretend to lose a lightsaber fight to manipulate someone, but it is equally consistent for him to take advantage of a Windu's superior swordsmanship to provoke the same moral dilemma. It is not important whether Windu was winning a clean fight or a fixed one; the important thing is that he was winning, and Sidious took advantage of this. Sidious was not afraid, that much is certain. It is equally sure that he was pretending to be weak for Skywalker's benefit (notice how quickly he stands and brushes himself off after defenestrating Windu, despite his claims of exhaustion). However, that merely proves that he is a much better tactician than Windu; it has nothing at all to do with being a better duelist.

Good analysis, Publius! Could it have been Anakin's fear which Mace picked up?

His is the only one there.

Superman wrote:Just watched Ep 3 with commentary, and I noticed that Lucas stated that Palpatine was just 'pretending' to be weak during the fight with Mace. At first I thought Palpy threw the fight on purpose, then I thought that Mace probably did actually beat him, now I don't know which to think. He may have been pretending to be weak, but that doesn't necessarily mean he could have won either.

Anyone else watch that with commentary?

i did watch it with commentary, i made a thread about it somewhere, cant find the thread in the search but i watched all the movies with commentary and i just hated the EpIII. For some reason they thought it very important to throw Earth politics into it.
Anyways yeah i was really confused on the whole George Lucas take on the Palpy/Mace fight, it kinda really takes away the whole "What if Anakin didnt come then" aspect

Publius wrote: It is not important whether Windu was winning a clean fight or a fixed one; the important thing is that he was winning, and Sidious took advantage of this.

Excellent point. Sidious was losing the duel, but he was still winning. I'm pretty convinced now that Sidious was inferior in terms of skill with a lightsaber, but at the end of the day, only the end result mattered.. Sidious lived and Windu died.

Palpatine was willing to lose a battle in order to win the war.

We saw Clonetroopers absolutely own Jedi after Order 66 was given.

Palpatine KNEW the Jedi were coming. He told Anakin, then force communicated to him later 'You do know, don't you? If they kill me, any chance of saving her is lost.".

The 501st legion was on Coruscant.

If Palpatine was concerned in the least about the Jedi killing him, he could have EASILY had some of the best troopers in the galaxy in or near his offices, and all it would take is one gesture or signal.

Palpatine lost the fight before it was over, and he wanted to. I get the distinct feeling he dragged the fight with Mace out as long as possible however.

After all, you can't spring the REAL trap unless the victim is there, can you?

There is one incident everyone seemed to forget:

At one stage Windu left himself open for around 2 seconds, Palpy's lightsabre ready to strike his chest. The perfect opening to end him. You could see the look on Windu's face suggesting "oh shit, I'm done for"... but Palpy did not strike.

Why? What does this suggest? Did he really lose the duel or was it a feign because he knew Anakin would be on his way to "save" him?

If he knew Anakin was going to save him he wouldn't have been pleading for Anakin's help, now would he?

Besides that part of the fight has already been discussed in the original threads on the matter after RotS came out.

Palpatine's arm was fully extended at that point he'd literally have the leap forward to stab Windu. Who could easily block it.

Uncshabob wrote:There is one incident everyone seemed to forget:

At one stage Windu left himself open for around 2 seconds, Palpy's lightsabre ready to strike his chest. The perfect opening to end him. You could see the look on Windu's face suggesting "oh shit, I'm done for"... but Palpy did not strike.

Would you care to post evidentiary screenshots and explanations?

Surlethe wrote:

Uncshabob wrote:There is one incident everyone seemed to forget:

At one stage Windu left himself open for around 2 seconds, Palpy's lightsabre ready to strike his chest. The perfect opening to end him. You could see the look on Windu's face suggesting "oh shit, I'm done for"... but Palpy did not strike.

Would you care to post evidentiary screenshots and explanations?

I'm pretty sure this is what he means:



As Crazedwraith points out, Palpatine would clearly need to lunge forward to strike, which would easily give Mace chance to block it.

I'm not so sure Palps already has his arm fully extended. He would have to move his body forward to lunge. That is a movement that has a slower reaction time and if Mace sidesteps he wuld be open to attack and not able to block.

Elfdart wrote:If he knew Anakin was going to save him he wouldn't have been pleading for Anakin's help, now would he?

Or perhaps Palpy just wanted to have Anakin take a step away from the Jedi Order that he couldn't wussy out from. Its not like killing Windu was a real step towards the dark side or anything.

That's the problem: Anakin doesn't decide to kill Windu until the very last instant.

Crazedwraith wrote:Besides that part of the fight has already been discussed in the original threads on the matter after RotS came out.

Palpatine's arm was fully extended at that point he'd literally have the leap forward to stab Windu. Who could easily block it.

Manus Celer Dei wrote:*snip picture*

As Crazedwraith points out, Palpatine would clearly need to lunge forward to strike, which would easily give Mace chance to block it.

That picture doesn't really give us a look at Palpatine's footwork. For a fencer lunging would be utterly trivial.

Mace Windu's not even in a proper guard posture. He is wide open, with a full frontal profile. His dueling arm is also not in any guard.

(Yes, I know Jedi and Sith have precog and lightning reflexes - you don't have to point the obvious out to me)

Elfdart wrote:That's the problem: Anakin doesn't decide to kill Windu until the very last instant.

I don't think it was a case of Anakin ever deciding to kill Mace, more of the decision to save Palpatine. The act of saving Sidious lead to his death, but I don't think it was his intention.

From the way Palpatine was pleading, it is easy to imagine Anakin believeing that he actually was too weak to continue with his Force lightning assult just like he said.

Anakin possibly thought that once Windu was stopped, even though he cut off his hand to do it, he would see that his judgment to kill Sidious was in error.

Anakin had no reason to not believe that Palpatine could not summon any more Force Lightning as he said, and if I'm not mistaken this is the only time in any of the movies that we see Palpatine lie straight up to Anakin.

I think regardless of which one was the better lightsaber dualist, Palpatine needed to seem weak, and needed to appear as much at Mace's mercy as possible if he was to succeed at his real battle: turning Anakin to the dark side.

In order to prime Anakin for his later acts of genocide, Palpatine needed to be sure that Anakin would make the transition to Vader willingly. Hence, the need to "save" Palpatine from apparently certain death - the necessary illusion of free will.