SDN World 3 Commentary Thread III

[Steve]

Okay, how about this? On the naval thing.

Ships up to 65,000T this game year, in 1929 you can go to 70,000T standard. If your ship is over 62,000T standard you have to add one quarter for extra trials time save for units laid at least six months after the first (lay any in Q2 and a ship laid in Q4 or afterward is exempt from the extra quarter). Once those first ships complete the extra trial time is erased.

We'll repeat the same standard with 70,000+T ships... if anyone's nuts enough to build one.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Okay, how about this? On the naval thing.

Ships up to 65,000T this game year, in 1929 you can go to 70,000T standard. If your ship is over 62,000T standard you have to add one quarter for extra trials time save for units laid at least six months after the first (lay any in Q2 and a ship laid in Q4 or afterward is exempt from the extra quarter). Once those first ships complete the extra trial time is erased.

We'll repeat the same standard with 70,000+T ships... if anyone's nuts enough to build one.

If anyone is crazy enough to build a 9 gun 20.1"/45 battleship firing >4500lb shells...

[Steve]

Okay, how about this? On the naval thing.

Ships up to 65,000T this game year, in 1929 you can go to 70,000T standard. If your ship is over 62,000T standard you have to add one quarter for extra trials time save for units laid at least six months after the first (lay any in Q2 and a ship laid in Q4 or afterward is exempt from the extra quarter). Once those first ships complete the extra trial time is erased.

We'll repeat the same standard with 70,000+T ships... if anyone's nuts enough to build one.

If anyone is crazy enough to build a 9 gun 20.1"/45 battleship firing >4500lb shells...

....well, you asked for it.

Leviathan, Cascadian Superbattleship laid down 1930

Displacement:
68,369 t light; 72,557 t standard; 77,850 t normal; 82,084 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(967.97 ft / 955.00 ft) x 135.00 ft x (35.45 / 37.03 ft)
(295.04 m / 291.08 m) x 41.15 m x (10.81 / 11.29 m)

Armament:
9 - 20.00" / 508 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4,500.01lbs / 2,041.17kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1930 Model
3 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm 43.0 cal guns - 61.05lbs / 27.69kg shells, 550 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1930 Model
20 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
40 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 2.07lbs / 0.94kg shells, 150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model
20 x 2 row twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
20 raised mounts
32 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.56lbs / 0.25kg shells, 150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model
8 x 4 row quad mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 41,822 lbs / 18,970 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 72 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
3.00" / 76 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 105.00 ft / 32.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 21.0" / 533 mm 12.0" / 305 mm 19.0" / 483 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm - 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -
4th: 0.10" / 3 mm - -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 8.00" / 203 mm
Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm Quarter deck: 4.00" / 102 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 18.00" / 457 mm, Aft 6.00" / 152 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 98,632 shp / 73,579 Kw = 24.45 kts
Range 10,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 9,527 tons

Complement:
2,329 - 3,029

Cost:
£26.398 million / $105.593 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 6,824 tons, 8.8 %
- Guns: 6,824 tons, 8.8 %
Armour: 27,929 tons, 35.9 %
- Belts: 6,006 tons, 7.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,598 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 6,977 tons, 9.0 %
- Armour Deck: 12,405 tons, 15.9 %
- Conning Towers: 943 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 2,989 tons, 3.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 30,527 tons, 39.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 9,482 tons, 12.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.1 %
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
135,297 lbs / 61,370 Kg = 33.8 x 20.0 " / 508 mm shells or 25.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 9.8 ft / 3.0 m
Roll period: 18.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.25

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a round stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.596 / 0.602
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.07 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.90 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 37 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 34.00 ft / 10.36 m, 27.50 ft / 8.38 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 27.50 ft / 8.38 m, 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 21.50 ft / 6.55 m, 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 21.50 ft / 6.55 m, 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Average freeboard: 24.12 ft / 7.35 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175.9 %
Waterplane Area: 93,984 Square feet or 8,731 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 271 lbs/sq ft or 1,322 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.12
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

4 Scout Aircraft Included

[Thanas]

Hrm. Shit. Didn't consider that.

Would have to get back to you on that.

I think it should be allowed, if only to give smaller nations a change.

[Akhlut]

Build up your population instead with mass-farm innovations, childbirth incentives, terrifying government projects involving fertility drugs in the water supply and shadowy agencies committing crimes against man, nature and God with their cloning vats.

You can use the same IBPs to do it for a long-run change and explain short-term change as immigration.

Lots and lots of immigration.

Where do the manspiders fit into this scheme?

[Steve]

Hrm. Shit. Didn't consider that.

Would have to get back to you on that.

I think it should be allowed, if only to give smaller nations a change.

Nominally it reflects a country lacks the workforce to be above a certain industrial threshold, but you do have a point there. As such I won't oppose people building more industry.

[Thanas]

Okay, how about this? On the naval thing.

Ships up to 65,000T this game year, in 1929 you can go to 70,000T standard. If your ship is over 62,000T standard you have to add one quarter for extra trials time save for units laid at least six months after the first (lay any in Q2 and a ship laid in Q4 or afterward is exempt from the extra quarter). Once those first ships complete the extra trial time is erased.

We'll repeat the same standard with 70,000+T ships... if anyone's nuts enough to build one.

Well, fine. Now I can design a completely new class.

Oh, and why 62000 as the cutoff point for extra trials? Anything over 60000 tons should get that extra trial treatment.

[Steve]

Okay, how about this? On the naval thing.

Ships up to 65,000T this game year, in 1929 you can go to 70,000T standard. If your ship is over 62,000T standard you have to add one quarter for extra trials time save for units laid at least six months after the first (lay any in Q2 and a ship laid in Q4 or afterward is exempt from the extra quarter). Once those first ships complete the extra trial time is erased.

We'll repeat the same standard with 70,000+T ships... if anyone's nuts enough to build one.

Well, fine. Now I can design a completely new class.

Oh, and why 62000 as the cutoff point for extra trials? Anything over 60000 tons should get that extra trial treatment.

Because I was thinking of the "1 month trials/1,000T over" ratio and also considering the 7,000 jump figure to be a bit more generous than 5,000 as proposed.

And really, is one extra quarter of trials that big a deal? I'll just take the extra quarter and field Excalibur as a 64,000T design.

[Thanas]

No, it is not that big a deal. Except that I haven't really designed a 65 or 60kt ship yet. Because I was under the impression that someone building a 70kt yard was actually allowed to use it.

This means redoing two years of budget drafts, pushing back the replacement schedule for my BBs further because the new ones coming in service in 1929 won't have the same capabilities as the others....UGH. Frustrating.

[Steve]

It was meant to reflect eventual capability.

Oh well, another notch in the "Steve messed up the naval system" belt it seems.

[Thanas]

It was meant to reflect eventual capability.

Oh well, another notch in the "Steve messed up the naval system" belt it seems.

Well, at least I have got more IBPs left now with which to increase my other forces, then, so it is a bit of a bonus with regards to that.

[loomer]

Build up your population instead with mass-farm innovations, childbirth incentives, terrifying government projects involving fertility drugs in the water supply and shadowy agencies committing crimes against man, nature and God with their cloning vats.

You can use the same IBPs to do it for a long-run change and explain short-term change as immigration.

Lots and lots of immigration.

Where do the manspiders fit into this scheme?

They pull the strings of the entire program, naturally.

[Lonestar]

And responded.

[Ma Deuce]

Nominally it reflects a country lacks the workforce to be above a certain industrial threshold, but you do have a point there. As such I won't oppose people building more industry.

Well it's settled then, I guess I will be building bigger ships...eventually. However, I can't afford to wait 3-4 years to lay down any new capital ships, so my next building program (which I hope to finish by the end of 1930) will proceed as planned. These will include two classes of 50kt capital ships; a battlecruiser design mounting 3 x 3 40cm/50s, and a battleship with 4 x 2 45cm/48s, in both cases firing superheavy shells. Carriers in the 20-25kt range are also being studied.

[Thanas]

Beowulf, I thought we were not allowed to keep armored or motorized forces in reserve?

[CmdrWilkens]

Beowulf, I thought we were not allowed to keep armored or motorized forces in reserve?

I think you could have them as reserves but they still counted against you game start cap.

[Thanas]

Anyway, I have written one major fluff post (the artillery - it does not matter what artillery one fields because they are supposed to have the same value) and one storypost. I'll try to write more about the Dutch resistance tomorrow or on Tuesday.

Oh, and Germany will limit herself to 60kt battleships, though battlecruisers will be 65kt.

[Ma Deuce]

Okay, looking over my latest naval orbat and queues (which will be posted shortly) I have decided that some of my older ships are surplus to my needs. This includes nine 13-15 year old light cruisers (equivalent to the British town-class), eighteen 10-12 year old destroyers (950 tonners, with 3 100mm guns and 8 TTs, 34 knots, added depth charges), and eight Holland 602-type submarines. Note that I'm merely gauging interest here and these vessels are not actually for sale yet (they won't be until I make it official in the story thread). Just want to see if some smaller navy MIGHT have use for them.

[Thanas]

^I myself will be offering two Novara class cruisers and two Tatra class destroyers for sale. If nobody wants them, they'll be scrapped.

[RogueIce]

I'll take the ships at scrap price (or whatever) for gunnery target hulks. Assuming noone else has any use for the things.

[Thanas]

And voila, the resistance strikes.

[loomer]

I'll take your seatanks if you can work out some kind of gigantic track system to make them into land battleships for me.

[Thanas]

Lascaris, how can you start building four liners when every single one of your slipways is filled with capital ships? Liners still take slipways, even if they only cost a third of an equivalent tonnage Navy ship.

[Lascaris]

Lascaris, how can you start building four liners when every single one of your slipways is filled with capital ships? Liners still take slipways, even if they only cost a third of an equivalent tonnage Navy ship.

Oh this fall victim to merely 3 slight problems.

First ocean liners were often enough built by civilian yards that had nothing to do with large scale military construction. Frex the 3 Olympics each of over 45,000 tons were build by Harland & Wolff which was not involved at capital ship construction. RMS Oceanic projected to be 60-80,000 tons in the 1920s was also laid down at Harland & Wolff which remained still out of the big warships business till the 1940. So no what battleships or carriers I build has nothing to do with civilian shipping.

Second the slip sizes are completely out of sync with the size of the new ocean liners coming up in the 30s. The two Queens were well over 80,000 tons. Normandie was of the same size and the follow up to it Bretagne would amount to a mere 97,000 tons. I short of doubt it is holds any logic to claim France cannot build Normandie or that Normandie (or worse Bretagne ) sized ships are not technically feasible when they very clearly were.

Third the shipbuilding capacity listed is what a country can use on military naval construction. I expect that there isn't any serious doubt that any of the main industrial powers can produce merchant ships in quantities far and well in excess of that. If you want to use your slipways and shipbuilding to produce yet more civilian ships it's I suppose your prerrogative. To claim though that you can build large civilian ships only in military yards... no.

[CmdrWilkens]

The counter-point is that such ships would be civilian crewed and civilian owned (any government ownership percentage means use of slipways and IBP capacity)...so the ships would and can exist but should you ever need to convert them for military needs it would take a couple months AFTER you seize them.