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The biggest issue with taking dives, and with bad decisions in soccer is that the game is so low scoring that if they lead to a goal, then the frees can be decisive in terms of the result.

Now, people from soccer countries might already be used to this kind of thing, but in countries where high scoring games are the norm, people consider it to be less of an "acceptable part of the game", since they're accustomed to bad umpiring decisions being (in general) the difference between a 15 point win and a 10 point win, rather than the difference between 3 points and 1 point on the premiership table.

weemadando wrote:Just two articles from TODAYS coverage of the World Cup in Australia. I really agree with the first one - it is becoming increasingly difficult to defend the sport in Australia, let alone promote it, due to the way that the diving (the biggest criticism of football in Australia) is being handled right now.

Game's credibility taking a dive

Angry Swiss Blast "Astonishing" Red Card

TBH I think soccer in Australia has a lot more to worry about than supposed lack of manliness (and it's not like shit umpiring has killed the AFL, or lack of physicality/toughness has affected interest in cricket or tennis). I think one of the reasons there was such a hysterical response after the Germany game was a lot of people had an 'oh shit' moment when they realised that what seemed to be an assured place in the sun post-2006 might be anything but. The A-League

thejester wrote:

Thanas wrote:Sorry, too busy listening to aussies whine about how their team got shafted through absolutely no fault of their own.

A BLOO BLOO BLOO BLOO.

Is that code for 'my arguments suck balls'? The culture of diving is a blight on the game and has gone from mere to gamesmanship to systematic cheating. Watching Italy vs New Zealand the other night...had the Italians actually concentrated on the game rather than continually played for frees, they might have beaten a team with a fraction of the talent they possess. Note that I don't think Australia is immune, for the 20 something minutes Kewell played he was playing for frees and bleating to the ref to an embarrassing extent. But as it stands the yellow card is CLEARLY an insufficient deterrent to players and the problem seems to be getting worse.

If the yellow card is an insufficient deterrent, then players will get more red cards. Honestly, what has supposedly changed since the last world cup?

PS: Writing 'a bloo bloo bloo' makes you look stupid.

I think it is the very paragon of eloquence which adequately summarizes the Australian attitude these days.



That said, the problem with FIFA's referees is that they pick them three years before the tournament and once you have been chosen, you will not get kicked off.

Looks like that unless France does something, they'll lose and will not advance. so far in the first period it is 2-0 for South Africa.

Yep, first to the second round Uruguay (winners), and Mexico (runners up), fair play to RSA for beating France, the French team have been overall the worst team in the tournament for me.

I don't think france have ever escaped the embrassment of henry's handball that won them a place in the world cup in the first place. Not that many people i know are complaining too much about it. Time for the french to rebuild, and it'll take some time for that to happen.

Lusankya wrote: Now, people from soccer countries might already be used to this kind of thing, but in countries where high scoring games are the norm, people consider it to be less of an "acceptable part of the game", since they're accustomed to bad umpiring decisions being (in general) the difference between a 15 point win and a 10 point win, rather than the difference between 3 points and 1 point on the premiership table.

Apologies but could I get a little clarification on what you mean by this? Especially the underlined part?

Shit in North America over the last decade or so we are very much used to the idea that referees and officials having effects beyond the games being played, such as in the standings or in playoff matches. The difference is that because there is so much at stake in the games being played officials are held to more accountability by fans and the media, which is why all four of our four biggest professional sports have adopted or re-adopted replay review in the past decade and even some college sports use it now too.

Admittedly, of the "big four" professional sports, only the National Hockey League uses a points system for the standings and even then it is much more different than what Soccer uses. I think the World Cup system (3 points for winning, one for tying) is the same as what Major League Soccer uses but what started out promising has become almost an afterthought.

Lusankya wrote:The biggest issue with taking dives, and with bad decisions in soccer is that the game is so low scoring that if they lead to a goal, then the frees can be decisive in terms of the result.

Which should lead to the oversight commission putting in procedures to cut down on the screw ups and make some changes to the game to keep the screw ups from happening in the first place.

Take hockey for example, the NHL has added an extra ref and video reviews so they'll have someone in place to spot the penalties, and there's videos reviews for various things. The are also meetings and so forth where the refs are graded on their performance, and the refs who work the playoff games are the ones with the best performance ratings. They also made some minor rule changes (when is holding & hooking called) to make the game better and discourage dirty play. Admittedly there's a lot more work to be done (how to get rid of cheap hits) but at least they're working towards it.

With soccer it just gets worse every year and the game is unwatchable these days.

A lot of the whining about soccer players flopping and taking dives is just blatant hypocrisy. There may not be much flopping in rugby, American football, or baseball, but there is a shitload of flopping and faking in basketball. In addition, the NBA also treats players differently (Kobe Bryant will "get calls" that no one else will get) and protects its superstars. The NFL does the same thing with quarterbacks.

The best analogy with soccer in American football is when guys pretend to make catches or eye gouge or punch people in the nuts fighting for a fumble. Is it cheating? Absolutely... but that's considered macho, while flopping or diving is not.

Korgeta wrote:I don't think france have ever escaped the embrassment of henry's handball that won them a place in the world cup in the first place. Not that many people i know are complaining too much about it. Time for the french to rebuild, and it'll take some time for that to happen.

You obviously don't live in Ireland. Oh the wailing and gnashing of teeth...
Now the general opinion is: "If you're that disinterested in winning, why didn't you let us play instead?"

Enigma wrote:Hey, I'll be happy that Portugal makes the next round. I honestly don't think that they'll win the cup.

DOUBTER!!

Portugal has been quite strong in international tournaments in the last decade. It's not by coincidence that it occupies third place in FIFA's international ranks. In this last super delicious glorious game, I saw a team that enjoys playing football and working together. When this happens, Portugal can go very far - world class players we have, building a team in the short time that exists is often the most difficult.

That we go forward is clear unless a calamity happens, as we don't even have to tie with Brazil and between us and Ivory Coast stand 9 goals of difference. Professional teams just don't let such a margin go. For the next game I also think the chances are excellent and afterward we'll see. In 2006 we lost in the half finals against Zidane and his french, this year that at least won't happen for sure

Darth Fanboy wrote:Apologies but could I get a little clarification on what you mean by this? Especially the underlined part?

In all the football leagues around the world, the table is decided thusly;

• Victory is worth 3 points
• Draw 1 point
• Defeat 0 points

Just like the world cup and all other tournaments like it.

Darth Fanboy wrote:Shit in North America over the last decade or so we are very much used to the idea that referees and officials having effects beyond the games being played, such as in the standings or in playoff matches. The difference is that because there is so much at stake in the games being played officials are held to more accountability by fans and the media, which is why all four of our four biggest professional sports have adopted or re-adopted replay review in the past decade and even some college sports use it now too.

FIFA will never allow a video ref in the game. They talk about how the technology is not feasible across the globe, and thus it will create 'different tiers' of football credibility and they do not want that. Could be that they are being honest and sincere ... but since FIFA are a bunch of money-sucking-scum-dwelling parasites, the actual answer is that it does not behoove FIFA to eliminate doubt in the game.

If there is no doubt, you go home and think 'wow, bit of hard luck there' and move on with your life ... if there is doubt you go to the boozer with your mates, argue, ring into the million and one pundit shows and talk, and whine, and moan, and so on for weeks at a time. Essentially what you are doing is keeping football in your mind and in the mind of everyone else around you for weeks after the event. Now that's advertising you just cannot buy!

Believe me, I support Liverpool FC A FUCKING BEACH BALL SCORED AGAINST US this season, I'm STILL angry about that!

Anyway, Greece are out ... can't say I'm too disappointed, when winning Euro 04 Greece were still defend and counter, but at least they countered, didn't even try to get out of their half tonight. No guesses why; Argentina would have ripped them a new one.

It does expose something that I hope that once the wanking over the Swiss freak goal is over should be clear; there is a huge fucking chasm of talent from the 'good' teams to the 'bad' teams and tactics can only get you so far. England, I'm looking at you; you are one of the 'big hitters' who have got 'stars' who can't control a fucking ball, Spain and Argentina mock you. Sort it out.

For Greece; yes you're a small nation, but you need to invest in bringing more technically talented kids through your system, or this is as far as you'll always go.

For Australia; Fozzie would you please shut the fuck up? Not everyone can play like Barcelona/Spain, because if everyone could play that way they would play that way. It has taken Spain TWENTY EIGHT FUCKING YEARS to see the labours of it's youth program bear fruit after they were humiliated in Spain 82 World Cup. What a reactionary, xenophobe tosser.

Oh, and dear BBC commentators; do me a fucking favour you twat bellends, look at the stats in the Argentina/Greece game and you will find that it is quite similar to the Champions League final stats of Bayern/Inter (except goals). Apparently Mourhino is the fucking 'chosen one' for while having Molito, Eto'o and Sneijder etc play the most negative football in the world, but apparently Rehhagel is an advertisement for why coaches over 70 should retire. Blow me you know nothing fucking twats.

Oh, and while I'm talking about know nothing commentators; ITV, I've had to sit through some dire fucking games watching Liverpool FC this season, and the number one stick that you used to beat Rafa Benitez with (apart from zonal marking) when something wasn't going right was why was he sticking to 4-2-3-1 and not going 4-4-2 ... but what audacity are you idiots actually challenging Capello for playing 4-4-2 now?!? Are you having a fucking laugh? THAT's the formation that England have used through their entire qualifiers, now it's not good enough??!

AAAAAAAARRRRRGH!!


EDIT :: Changed 'Cozzie' to 'Fozzie' to actually - you know - reflect the person's name.

Colonel Olrik wrote:

Enigma wrote:Hey, I'll be happy that Portugal makes the next round. I honestly don't think that they'll win the cup.

DOUBTER!!

Portugal has been quite strong in international tournaments in the last decade. It's not by coincidence that it occupies third place in FIFA's international ranks. In this last super delicious glorious game, I saw a team that enjoys playing football and working together. When this happens, Portugal can go very far - world class players we have, building a team in the short time that exists is often the most difficult.

That we go forward is clear unless a calamity happens, as we don't even have to tie with Brazil and between us and Ivory Coast stand 9 goals of difference. Professional teams just don't let such a margin go. For the next game I also think the chances are excellent and afterward we'll see. In 2006 we lost in the half finals against Zidane and his french, this year that at least won't happen for sure

My father are Porto fans while I know at least one uncle is a fan of Benfica but I come from a family of pessimists. So while we hope Portugal wins the cup, we have serious doubts that they will. Nevertheless, GO Portugal GO!

SancheztheWhaler wrote:A lot of the whining about soccer players flopping and taking dives is just blatant hypocrisy. There may not be much flopping in rugby, American football, or baseball, but there is a shitload of flopping and faking in basketball. In addition, the NBA also treats players differently (Kobe Bryant will "get calls" that no one else will get) and protects its superstars. The NFL does the same thing with quarterbacks.

The best analogy with soccer in American football is when guys pretend to make catches or eye gouge or punch people in the nuts fighting for a fumble. Is it cheating? Absolutely... but that's considered macho, while flopping or diving is not.

It's not that eye gouging or whatever is seen as cheating, some can forgive that for the heat of the moment kind of thing (though in rugby those kind of incidents are punished severely when caught) there is an unwritten code though that fighting and cheap blows are just the part of the parcel of contact sport, it's another when you simulate injury with the sole intent to getting someone sent off. People are less willing to forgive being setup to be the fall guy of the rules leading them to possibly miss out on key games or even history in the making in comparison to receiving a bad kick to the groin where many who do recieve something like that still get up and play.

Twigler wrote:

Korgeta wrote:I don't think france have ever escaped the embrassment of henry's handball that won them a place in the world cup in the first place. Not that many people i know are complaining too much about it. Time for the french to rebuild, and it'll take some time for that to happen.

You obviously don't live in Ireland. Oh the wailing and gnashing of teeth...
Now the general opinion is: "If you're that disinterested in winning, why didn't you let us play instead?"

True but I have many Irish friends on facebook who have been giving me some insight to what they have been thinking about France's fall out of this tournament. Hell I have three co-workers who are Irish as well. So I had a idea of what the Irish had thought of it.

Anyway due to a blind sweep bet (£2 entry) I must do the unthinkable and ask the Germans to win the world cup as their the team I got. I'll be £300 richer if you do it for me!!!

SancheztheWhaler wrote:A lot of the whining about soccer players flopping and taking dives is just blatant hypocrisy. There may not be much flopping in rugby, American football, or baseball, but there is a shitload of flopping and faking in basketball.

First, I don't think basketball players flop nearly as often as soccer players. But when they do, they "pretend" to shake it off and get ready to play again, immediately (even if they simulate an injury as opposed to merely getting fouled--which is by far more common). They don't call over to the stretcher bearers and get EMT's to administer cardiac paddles and blood transfusions like they do in soccer. Even players who are legitimately injured in basketball--including several who have suffered serious leg injuries during games--typically walk to the locker rooms under their own power for treatment.

In addition, the NBA also treats players differently (Kobe Bryant will "get calls" that no one else will get) and protects its superstars. The NFL does the same thing with quarterbacks.

Other sports have their problems, but it doesn't slow the game down like the diving in soccer, nor do players in other sports regularly do such things to try and get other players from the other team removed from the game.

The best analogy with soccer in American football is when guys pretend to make catches or eye gouge or punch people in the nuts fighting for a fumble. Is it cheating? Absolutely... but that's considered macho, while flopping or diving is not.

That's not a good analogy at all. Such instances in football are relatively rare--I recall only a very few such incidents off the top of my head. Also, they're universally denounced by football fans, routinely punished by the League or sanctioning bodies when they do occur--they're certainly not viewed as "part of the game." In contrast, the diving in soccer happens every single game. You literally cannot watch a soccer match in which no player takes a dive or simulates an injury. It's extremely uncommon to watch an entire game in which no one is stretchered off only to return within 30 seconds. And this is accepted by soccer fans, FIFA, players, teams, and coaches.

The kinds of cheating you're talking about in football, however, happen maybe once or twice per weekend, and physical play and heat-of-the-moment conflicts are inherent in playing sports as physical as hockey or football. But even cheap-shots in those sports aren't designed to get the referee to come in and remove the other player from the game. And because of what can only be described as FIFA's incredibly lax review standards, FIFA plays into this by actively sanctioning victims of such tactics not only for the remainder of the game in which a referee missed a call and erroneously issued a caution or send-off, but such players can through no fault of theirs be prevented from playing in future matches, with no appeals process.

Master of Ossus wrote:Even players who are legitimately injured in basketball--including several who have suffered serious leg injuries during games--typically walk to the locker rooms under their own power for treatment.

Umm ... you do realise that the majority of [legitimate] clashes will happen in football when an opponent brings their entire weight (plus momentum) to bear on your ankle, shin or knee ... right? And their meant to 'walk to the locker rooms under their own power for treatment' are they?

C'mon Alonso lad! What are you doing getting a stretcher after Joey ploughed his studs through your ankle? Don't ya know that there American Basketball players who wear sneakers and might on occasion get trodden on are able to cross 15m width of a basketball court to their locker rooms to receive treatment, why can't you cross Anfield's 68m width, walk down the tunnel, and up the stairs on the other end on your own?! A disgrace! A disgrace I tells ya!



Wow. Axe to grind much?

Crown wrote:Umm ... you do realise that the majority of [legitimate] clashes will happen in football when an opponent brings their entire weight (plus momentum) to bear on your ankle, shin or knee ... right? And their meant to 'walk to the locker rooms under their own power for treatment' are they?

C'mon Alonso lad! What are you doing getting a stretcher after Joey ploughed his studs through your ankle? Don't ya know that there American Basketball players who wear sneakers and might on occasion get trodden on are able to cross 15m width of a basketball court to their locker rooms to receive treatment, why can't you cross Anfield's 68m width, walk down the tunnel, and up the stairs on the other end on your own?! A disgrace! A disgrace I tells ya!



Wow. Axe to grind much?

Way to completely miss the point. He's talking about basketball players taking dives regularly, so I pointed out that these aren't remotely the same types of things. In one sport, legitimately injured players nonetheless walk off the court on their own power. In another, players who haven't been touched require stretchers to reach the sidelines.

And, yeah, the feigned injuries in soccer are disgraceful. In no other major sport do players utilize such tactics.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Way to completely miss the point. He's talking about basketball players taking dives regularly, so I pointed out that these aren't remotely the same types of things. In one sport, legitimately injured players nonetheless walk off the court on their own power. In another, players who haven't been touched require stretchers to reach the sidelines.

Oh no, I got the point all too well for your liking I'm sure.

It seems it is you who are missing the proverbial point; in football, due to the nature of the contact being made a 'legitimate' injury would more often than not require a stretcher. It does not make the basektballers any more 'manly' due to their type of clashes which would not require stretching off upon injury as your snide little comment was demonstrably implying.

What SancheztheWhaler was talking about was the double standard that most - let us be kind and say 'non regular football watching public' - employ about whining about the perceived 'simulation' in football while all the time ignoring the absolutely scandalous examples of it in their more mainstream sports.

Oh you can argue degrees and theatrics, but it's all pointless when all he's talking about is frequency.

But please, continue to tell me more of these 'brave basketball playing men' who after having their big toe stubbed can walk across 15m for treatment rather than having to get a stretcher, doesn't expose your bias in anyway shape or form...

Crown wrote:Oh no, I got the point all too well for your liking I'm sure.

It seems it is you who are missing the proverbial point; in football, due to the nature of the contact being made a 'legitimate' injury would more often than not require a stretcher. It does not make the basektballers any more 'manly' due to their type of clashes which would not require stretching off upon injury as your snide little comment was demonstrably implying.

Now you're just being an idiot. I'm not arguing that basketballers are "manly" when they fake injuries (which they DON'T DO--find me one example of a basketball player pretending to be injured as a result of a foul by his opponent when, in fact, he's perfectly fine).

I'm not deriding soccer players for their failure to walk off the field on their own when they are hurt, but rather their incredible feigning of injuries when they're not. Basketball players do nothing remotely similar, and I'm only pointing to the fact that even injured basketball players walk off as an illustration of the fact that they do not seek to draw unnecessary attention to their physical infirmities, even when they are truly injured, and the lengths that they go to in order to avoid such confusion.

What SancheztheWhaler was talking about was the double standard that most - let us be kind and say 'non regular football watching public' - employ about whining about the perceived 'simulation' in football while all the time ignoring the absolutely scandalous examples of it in their more mainstream sports.

Point to one. Point to one example in which a football player has demanded to be stretchered off the field in an effort to garner sympathy from the officials before returning to play moments later.

Oh you can argue degrees and theatrics, but it's all pointless when all he's talking about is frequency.

But he's not. I've pointed out that the plays he was talking about happen very infrequently in football and hockey (and that they're anything but accepted parts of the game in those sports), whereas they literally occur in every single high-level soccer match.

But please, continue to tell me more of these 'brave basketball playing men' who after having their big toe stubbed can walk across 15m for treatment rather than having to get a stretcher, doesn't expose your bias in anyway shape or form...

You're grossly understating the severity of leg injuries sustained during basketball games (hint: hard floor+much larger and stronger players+nigh constant jumping in traffic and contested areas=broken bones, sprained and dislocated joints, and worse), but in any case I'm not making the point that you're trying to put in my mouth.

Master of Ossus wrote:Now you're just being an idiot. I'm not arguing that basketballers are "manly" when they fake injuries (which they DON'T DO--find me one example of a basketball player pretending to be injured as a result of a foul by his opponent when, in fact, he's perfectly fine). I find that they're manly because even when they are injured, including injuries to the legs (e.g., sprained ankles, knees, dislocated bones, etc.), they're still able to walk off on their own. I'm not deriding soccer players for their failure to walk off the field on their own when they are hurt, but rather their incredible feigning of injuries when they're not. Basketball players do nothing remotely similar, and I'm only pointing to the fact that even injured basketball players walk off as an illustration of the fact that they do not seek to draw unnecessary attention to their physical infirmities, even when they are truly injured.

Again, you're talking about what you feel 'comfortable' with in theatrics. I've seen stud showing tackles where the shin pad has been completely ripped off - what is termed as a leg breaker - and nothing given. Refs seem to respond to the theatrics for real situations, so doesn't it stand to reason that if someone is 'faking it' then the theatrics have to follow?

Compare this to basketball which is a practically a zero contact sport, the slightest touch is considered a foul (for better or worse, it's not the point), so it is easier for a player to fool the ref with play acting without resorting to theatrics.

Master of Ossus wrote:Point to one. Point to one example in which a football player has demanded to be stretchered off the field in an effort to garner sympathy from the officials before returning to play moments later.

What the fuck are you talking about? I'll quote Sanchez again;

A lot of the whining about soccer players flopping and taking dives is just blatant hypocrisy. There may not be much flopping in rugby, American football, or baseball, but there is a shitload of flopping and faking in basketball.

He says that it's not as theatrical up front for football! Way to fail reading comprehension there bud.

Master of Ossus wrote:But he's not. I've pointed out that the plays he was talking about happen very infrequently in football and hockey (and that they're anything but accepted parts of the game), whereas they literally occur in every single high-level soccer match.

Yes he is, read it again. And players 'draw fouls' in every single basketball game too ... your point?

Master of Ossus wrote:You're grossly understating the severity of leg injuries sustained during basketball games, but in any case I'm not making the point that you're trying to put in my mouth.

There is no rational human being on this planet who will listen to you drawing comparisons between leg injuries in basketball games with football and not laugh in your face, why are you expecting me to be any different?

Crown wrote:Again, you're talking about what you feel 'comfortable' with in theatrics.

No, I'm not. At no point have I endorsed people in any sport for taking dives.

I've seen stud showing tackles where the shin pad has been completely ripped off - what is termed as a leg breaker - and nothing given. Refs seem to respond to the theatrics for real situations, so doesn't it stand to reason that if someone is 'faking it' then the theatrics have to follow?

No. Refs respond to injuries in all sports. Why is soccer the only one in which players routinely fake injuries in order to draw calls?

Compare this to basketball which is a practically a zero contact sport,

ROFL. You obviously have no clue what basketball is. I've played soccer and I've played basketball both at a HS level, and one of them is VASTLY more contact-oriented than the other.

the slightest touch is considered a foul (for better or worse, it's not the point),

Nonsense. Again, you betray your ignorance of the sport.

so it is easier for a player to fool the ref with play acting without resorting to theatrics.

We can talk about why soccer players act like pussies day in and day out, but that doesn't excuse the behavior. Moreover, I've pointed out that FIFA specifically plays into it with rules that encourage players to take dives and get their opponents to rack up cards, and that punish players whose opponents take dives rather than the floppers.

What the fuck are you talking about? I'll quote Sanchez again;

A lot of the whining about soccer players flopping and taking dives is just blatant hypocrisy. There may not be much flopping in rugby, American football, or baseball, but there is a shitload of flopping and faking in basketball.

He says that it's not as theatrical up front for football! Way to fail reading comprehension there bud.

Conceded. Point to an example of a basketball player (or, for that matter, a player in any other major sport) demanding to be stretchered off the field before returning to the match seconds later, obviously no worse for wear.

Yes he is, read it again. And players 'draw fouls' in every single basketball game too ... your point?

Players "draw fouls" in basketball primarily by putting themselves in a position where the opponent has no choice but to foul them. And then they take the hit for the team. Observe, for example. They do not draw fouls in basketball by not being fouled and then flopping around on the court as if their opponent has taken a submachine gun to their chest.

There is no rational human being on this planet who will listen to you drawing comparisons between leg injuries in basketball games with football and not laugh in your face, why are you expecting me to be any different?

I'm not saying that the leg injuries in basketball are as serious as the ones in soccer, but your incredible ignorance of the sport shows in your steadfast refusal to acknowledge that basketball players do suffer from some injuries that most people would not get up and walk away from. Basketball has a culture of not using injuries as a sympathy ploy. Soccer has a culture of pretending to be injured as a sympathy ploy.

Master of Ossus wrote:No, I'm not. At no point have I endorsed people in any sport for taking dives.

I never said 'endorsed' you dumb twat, I'm saying you feel more comfortable with NBA players 'drawing fouls' (read conning the ref) than footballers because they don't do it in a theatrical way, you later go on to admit as such in your reply.

Master of Ossus wrote:No. Refs respond to injuries in all sports. Why is soccer the only one in which players routinely fake injuries in order to draw calls?

Because refs in football miss a hell of a lot you daft bastard. The fooball pitch is huge, and unless you draw obvious attention you're likely to get sweet fuck all.

Master of Ossus wrote:ROFL. You obviously have no clue what basketball is. I've played soccer and I've played basketball both at a HS level, and one of them is VASTLY more contact-oriented than the other.

Yes, football; Derby Match in Liverpool go on you HS pro you, show me your basketball. Note Pienaar's racking of Mascherano's shin from the knee to the ankle studs showing at 2:10 ... what a pussy eh?

Master of Ossus wrote:Nonsense. Again, you betray your ignorance of the sport.

Video evidence does not lie.

Master of Ossus wrote:We can talk about why soccer players act like pussies day in and day out, but that doesn't excuse the behavior.

And that, is your concession. Fuck you, and fuck off. I can't believe it has taken this long for you to come out and admit it. Wanker.

Master of Ossus wrote:Moreover, I've pointed out that FIFA specifically plays into it with rules that encourage players to take dives and get their opponents to rack up cards.

And I disagreed with you where ... ?

Crown wrote:FIFA will never allow a video ref in the game. They talk about how the technology is not feasible across the globe, and thus it will create 'different tiers' of football credibility and they do not want that. Could be that they are being honest and sincere ... but since FIFA are a bunch of money-sucking-scum-dwelling parasites, the actual answer is that it does not behoove FIFA to eliminate doubt in the game.

If there is no doubt, you go home and think 'wow, bit of hard luck there' and move on with your life ... if there is doubt you go to the boozer with your mates, argue, ring into the million and one pundit shows and talk, and whine, and moan, and so on for weeks at a time. Essentially what you are doing is keeping football in your mind and in the mind of everyone else around you for weeks after the event. Now that's advertising you just cannot buy!

Hmmm ... not there!

Master of Ossus wrote:Conceded. Point to an example of a basketball player (or, for that matter, a player in any other major sport) demanding to be stretchered off the field before returning to the match seconds later, obviously no worse for wear.

Why should I? Basketball isn't comparable to football just for the sheer size of the pitch and distance the ref is from the action, and due to the softer nature of fouls given (don't be slapping another man's hand!). And the nature of fouls committed in basketball would not result in a stretcher being necessary unlike in football.

Master of Ossus wrote:Players "draw fouls" in basketball primarily by putting themselves in a position where the opponent has no choice but to foul them. And then they take the hit for the team. They do not draw fouls in basketball by not being fouled and then flopping around on the court as if their opponent has taken a submachine gun to their chest.

No, they just slide across the floor and get it by default ... do you get it now?

Master of Ossus wrote:I'm not saying that the leg injuries in basketball are as serious as the ones in soccer, but your incredible ignorance in the sport shows in your steadfast refusal to acknowledge that basketball players do suffer from some injuries that most people would not get up and walk away from.

Do Basketball players have other grown men routinely come straight through with all their weight and momentum studs showing on their ankles and shins? What's that? No? Then shut the fuck up.

Crown wrote:I never said 'endorsed' you dumb twat, I'm saying you feel more comfortable with NBA players 'drawing fouls' (read conning the ref) than footballers because they don't do it in a theatrical way, you later go on to admit as such in your reply.

Again, "drawing fouls" means something different in basketball. It does not mean "conning the referee" as you so disingenuously put it. It means that you're being fouled, and then trusting the referee to call it correctly. (Also note that this is a training video for officials to help them distinguish between two types of fouls one of which is on the defender--it's something that referees can and do miss--a referee might have easily missed this and called a block on the defender, instead, to add insult to the blood streaming down her face). In soccer, diving means "I'm not being fouled, but I want the referee to think that I am," or the similar, "I was fouled, but I want the referee to think I got clobbered." This is not the same.

Because refs in football miss a hell of a lot you daft bastard. The fooball pitch is huge, and unless you draw obvious attention you're likely to get sweet fuck all.

Well, that excuses being a culture of pussies. Moreover, it's not like referees in basketball, football, or ice hockey get every call correct, either. It's just that in those sports no one pretends to be seriously injured in an effort to get the referee to blow calls.

Yes, football; Derby Match in Liverpool go on you HS pro you, show me your basketball. Note Pienaar's racking of Mascherano's shin from the knee to the ankle studs showing at 2:10 ... what a pussy eh?

He's not a pussy for that play. He's a pussy for rolling around screaming when someone doesn't touch him--something he'll surely do next time he's in the box, loses the ball, and gets breathed upon.

Video evidence does not lie.

Nor does personal experience. Have you ever seen a basketball game in your entire life?

Why should I? Basketball isn't comparable to football just for the sheer size of the pitch and distance the ref is from the action, and due to the softer nature of fouls given (don't be slapping another man's hand!). And the nature of fouls committed in basketball would not result in a stretcher being necessary unlike in football.

Some of them do, which you have steadfastly refused to admit. I'm sure that 1.6mm ER visits per year in the US alone [Edit: sorry, this is in all of North America--it includes CAN and MEX] are just 1.6mm wussies. Incidentally, half of these injuries occur because of contact with another player. In the US, and many other countries, soccer is considered a non-contact sport by people who play it--even in comparison with basketball, contact with opponents is extremely limited.

No, they just slide across the floor and get it by default ... do you get it now?

Or by having a 200-pound guy plant his shoulder in their chest, first, knocking them onto a hard wood floor. And a significant fraction of the time, they do that and get the foul called against the defender in this situation, anyway. No one who watches both sports would claim that these are the same thing.

Do Basketball players have other grown men routinely come straight through with all their weight and momentum studs showing on their ankles and shins? What's that? No? Then shut the fuck up.

Again, I'm not saying that soccer players who get hit are wussies. I'm saying that players who don't get hit and roll around as if they're crippled are wussies. This is only a phenomenon in one sport. It absolutely detracts from the game, and players should be embarrassed by each others' antics when they see incidents like Keita or Ronaldinho, except that we still see this numerous times each game.

Hmm so this is now a debate about which has more diving basketball or football? TBH I don't care, people mind talking about the world cup again?

Someone gave 3 points on how to make football a fairer and more responsible game. And I feel like I needed to add a 4th and 5th.

1) The on field referee cannot award a penalty kick all by themselves. Similar to how it works in cricket and most other sports in the world, any critical call like this must be confirmed by a video referee. As there is already a break in play, then having a video ref review the incident isn't really causing a great interruption at this time and it will remove the element of limited referee vision and the problems of handball, tackle and diving calls in the box.

2) After match review. Most sports in Australia have after match review policies where if a player is caught doing something on video, but it is missed by all the refs on the day, then they are still called to account for it. The knowledge that a shitty dive or cheap handball will be picked up after the game and you will be suspended for it might prove to be penalty enough.

3) Straight red card for diving. - I'm not 100% behind this, I think that there should be matching penalties, so if someone is booked for a tackle where the opponent dived, then the diver should be given their own yellow/red. This can mesh with pt 2 or a ref can decide that yes the tackle was bad, but your acting was just as bad and send both guys off at the same time.

And then my additions:

4) It's really an amendment to 1. Video ref has to confirm all goals. No more France v Ireland bullshit or Hand of God.

5) Get rid of offside. It was removed from field hockey years ago and everyone predicted it would be the end of the game and you'd just have people goal hawking the whole match. Turns out that the game still plays almost exactly the same, formations and marking patterns are hte same and score lines have remained the same. The only change is that there's one less infraction to be called that only ever slowed down the match and was usually wrong 50% of the time due to refs being out of position.