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Anguirus wrote: Destructionator, feel free to chime in here with another batshit rant about how Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace fails to resemble The Godfather.

I second this motion. Knife would you be so kind as to make another shitty gangster analogy?

I think that was supposed to be a reflection of the culture at the time; apparently similar behaviour towards returning veterans was recorded in Australia, too. It's really central to the movie that people treat Rambo like shit beause of their own hangups.

I'm not sure what you'd say the core message of TPM was. Don't fuck with wizards? Gambling is good, if you cheat?

Anguirus wrote:*snip*

Let me outline this for you: Tarkin's basal motivation as far as the movie is concerned is that he wants to destroy the rebels. We don't need to go any deeper than this, because every action he takes is related to that overall goal of destroying the rebels. He sends Vader to get the plans, he attempts to coerce the location of the base out of Leia, he puts in action a plan to find the base, and he moves to destroy the base when he locates it.

But while Gunray may have a basal motivation of "greed", we don't know how that underlies any of his actions in the movie, because the movie never explains it to us how the blockade or invasion will lead to him getting money. There's nothing that suggests that he looted the planet, or anything else beyond "blockade = money", which had to be conjured up after the film by viewers.

Again, imagine if we cut the Death Star Plans out of ANH. The movie would suddenly become a lot less coherent, since they'd be boarding the Tantive IV for no apparent reason, chasing the droids for no understandable reason, and we'd have no idea how the Rebels know to attack the thermal exhaust port.

By doing so he immediately becomes more powerful than literally almost everyone in the Empire because he, not they, commands the Death Star. If they decide to rebel against his commands (remember, with the Imperial Senate dissolved, he has been made a defacto warlord over the territory he controls, even though he follows the Emperor) he simply waltz into their system and blows their planet up. Their fleets can't harm his station because the DS has been designed around a large scale capital ship attack, as well as the starfighter pilots not having the Force to guide their torpedoes down the exhaust port (never mind that they don't know its weakness in the first place anyway).

Dude, you realize this is all wild extrapolation, possibly mixed with some EU cherry-picking right? That's precisely my point.

Additionally, he serves the Emperor because if he doesn't Darth Vader comes over and chokes his scrawny self to death.

"Enough of this! Vader, release him!" Come the fuck on, the ONE unique thing about Tarkin is that he's NOT afraid of Vader. Also, the Emperor is a complete non-entity in ANH. Amusingly, the introduction to the novel absolutely establishes that he's not an evil sorcerer, he's a little proxy patsy. This strongly indicates Emperor as we know him had not been invented yet.

Only my priorities and motivation prevent me from fanfic-ing as hard about Gunray as you are about Tarkin. How is this not obvious?

people like Motti wishing to dispose of him

Oh I KNOW you're making that up. There's none of that at all in the briefing room scene, it's just Motti baiting Vader and trying to browbeat Tarkin into being more aggressive.

In the recent novel Death Star Motti does come off as ambitious, though not to the Starscream-like levels you imply. However, in the radio drama he's got his nose up Tarkin's asshole. Again, all EU extrapolation.

Y'know, when the guy who made Donnie Darko posted a huge pile of information on his website that 'makes sense' of his incoherent and stupid movie, people laughed. 'Too bad it's not in the movie', they said, 'What a cop out'.

IMO he can get away with that because plot really is kind of like a bonus feature in Donnie Darko. The film is all about sensation and character. You didn't go to Eraserhead, Alien et al. for plot either.

Of course, a fluffy action movie like TPM needs a strong plot to anchor it. TPM didn't really have one, and it wore out its welcome with lots of pointless and lengthy sequences. The fact that you couldn't get into some tertiary character's head remains a minor point. It's sort of like complaining about the sniffles when you're dying of dysentery.

Man, I wish someone could die and make me Captain Copout.

Movie has no plot? INTENTIONAL!

Movie makes no sense? INTENTIONAL!

If only being on purpose made something less stupid. But I hear I didn't go to Alien for plot, because some fat guy said so?

Amusingly, Eraserhead might be a David Lynch movie, but it's got waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more plot than Donnie Darko, a movie where the theatrical version literally does not even MENTION critical stupid made-up philosophy bullshit that is critical to the plot.

But it doesn't matter; it was intentional. So intentional, indeed, that the creator made a) a different version and b) referred people to his not-in-movie explanation to communicate his vision.

That's pretty intentional.

Which is why SW movies don't need plots or writing or pacing or anything; everyone who watches the movie will read the books. Honest!

Anguirus wrote:

So how do we translate the basal motivation of "money" into the actions taken in the films?

Goalposts = moved, assuming that you are coming at this from the same angle as Insane Galvatron. I freely admit that the Trade Federation are props and ciphers, and the background info is handwavey so that we get a vague sense of "galactic affairs are complicated" while still getting a very simple plot. We could change a few lines of dialogue and get a very different perception of galactic affairs, and still change nothing important about the film itself.

Really? You honestly believe this is moving the goalposts? Because this is exactly what I've been arguing since the beginning of the thread. And as far as I can see, it's more or less the same thing others are arguing as well. We all know the Trade Federation is greedy, which by itself, would be enough of a motivation for a villain in this sort of movie. The problem is, it's never explained how any of their on-screen actions fit into their "greed", except in an extremely handwavey manner. Basically, all we know is that the Trade Federation is greedy, and they made some sort of potentially lucrative deal with Palpatine which involves invading Naboo.

Yes, you're right - ultimately they're just ciphers. But for the one-thousandth time: the struggle against the Trade Federation is the WHOLE FUCKING MOVIE. Palpatine is just a shadowy background figure; all the action, all the emotion, all the conflict comes from the fight against the Trade Federation. And since we don't know why they're doing anything they do, except in the most vaguest sense, it's legitmate to claim the writing is shitty.

Take the movie Wall Street. We know that Gordon Gecko's motivation is just plain and simple greed. But unlike TPM, the actions he takes on-screen actually make sense in light of this goal. He sends Charlie Sheen off to dig up insider information so he can buy/sell the right stocks.

Now, take the movie Alien. Here we have somewhat of an interesting comparison to TPM. The antagonist, the galactic mega-corporation Weyland Yutani, has extremely shadowy motivations. Basically they want the Alien so they can somehow profit from it, in some handwavey, undefined way. The difference is, Weyland Yutani is only a minor background detail; the primary antagonist of the film is the fucking Alien itself, and all the ensuing drama and tension is generated from the struggle against the Alien. Contrast this with TPM, where the Trade Federation is the source of drama and tension, and yet none of the actions taken by the Trade Federation are explained except in the vaguest possible way. In fact, we basically have an equal amount of information about the plans of the Trade Federation in TPM and the plans of Weyland Yutani in Alien. The difference is, Weyland Yutani is NOT a primary antagonist, so nobody really cares. See the problem?

So to summarize, a major problem with TPM is that the primary antagonists have no clear motivation for their on-screen actions. You can call them "ciphers" or whatever to downplay the problem, but the fact remains that they're the PRIMARY obstacle and source of conflict in the movie. To fail to provide them with any clear motivation for their on-screen actions is just shitty writing.

By doing so he immediately becomes more powerful than literally almost everyone in the Empire because he, not they, commands the Death Star. If they decide to rebel against his commands (remember, with the Imperial Senate dissolved, he has been made a defacto warlord over the territory he controls, even though he follows the Emperor) he simply waltz into their system and blows their planet up. Their fleets can't harm his station because the DS has been designed around a large scale capital ship attack, as well as the starfighter pilots not having the Force to guide their torpedoes down the exhaust port (never mind that they don't know its weakness in the first place anyway).

Dude, you realize this is all wild extrapolation, possibly mixed with some EU cherry-picking right? That's precisely my point.

Who gives a shit if it is? The fact is that I could figure this all out in less than a minute using inferring from canon sources (all of the Star Wars trilogy, specifically ANH) while the motivations of the TradeFederation make little sense despite them being the focal villains AND BEING DISCUSSED BY ALL THE RATIONAL COMMENTERS HERE IN THE TOPIC. Seriously, you're a dumbfuck for not realizing this.

I don't give a shit if I have to eat crow after this. So what if I'm wrong? If the plot of TPM makes more sense to me by your superior ( ) debating skills, then I have been improved from the then-dumbfuckery shared by various people on this board. And it would be about fucking time I find out about and understand TPM, cause I sure as hell don't now.

Additionally, he serves the Emperor because if he doesn't Darth Vader comes over and chokes his scrawny self to death.

"Enough of this! Vader, release him!" Come the fuck on, the ONE unique thing about Tarkin is that he's NOT afraid of Vader. Also, the Emperor is a complete non-entity in ANH. Amusingly, the introduction to the novel absolutely establishes that he's not an evil sorcerer, he's a little proxy patsy. This strongly indicates Emperor as we know him had not been invented yet.

1. Novel isn't canon. So psycho-electro evil sorcerer soulless torturer Palpatine is the guy he works for. Don't agree with that? Don't give a shit; it's canon.
2. He hadn't insulted Vader on screen. He was in charge of the station. He took advice from Vader ("You're sure the homing beacon is aboard their ship? I'm taking an awful risk, Vader. This had better work.") but otherwise was in control of the station, given he's the one who orders Alderaan's destruction. But simply saying he wasn't scared of Vader because of that ignores what happened there.

Tarkin took control of the conversation/argument between Motti and Tagge as soon as he entered the room, which indicates authority over them. Since Vader from the scenes shown isn't the one entirely running the show on the DS (and since Tarkin is the commander of the DS from all of the scenes shown), Tarkin can afford to not be entirely afraid of him since HE, not Vader, is the top dog for now. BUT, consider that Vader tends to be the henchman for the Emperor. Vader, as repeatedly demonstrated in ESB isn't afraid to execute incompetents. I doubt he'd miss Tarkin if the latter tried a coup with him onboard (notice how in the Radio Drama he only gets Motti's coup-proding AFTER Vader is outside fighting the Rebels) and if the Clone Wars cartoon series is canon, he's already been pissed off at him or something (It says that Tarkin apparently disrespected Anankin and the latter told him that he'd only respect those who show him gratitude, though I guess Tarkin might not know Vader is Anakin)

Additionally, combine this with Jerjerod pissing himself upon notice of the Emperor's impending arrival . Even if he doesn't fear Vader, he still has to keep whatever ambitions for galactic domination he has silenced because of the Emperor doing horrible things to people, and him if he acts up. Since the Empire has constructed the Death Star to terrorize the local systems into submission Tarkin plays a huge role in the Empire. Given that Motti was merely critizing Vaders use of the Dark Side (and considering that he was telling the truth anyway considering the Dark Side failed Vader) and he was choked for that, what do you think is going to happen to Tarkin if he tries to overthrow Palpatine? (Granted, he may get Vader's support for this considering Vader openly asks for his son, an open traitor to the EMpire, to join him in a coup against the Emperor. But I suspect the loyalty/fear of/to Palps is too strong right now)

Only my priorities and motivation prevent me from fanfic-ing as hard about Gunray as you are about Tarkin. How is this not obvious?

Not fanfic. With a little thought you can see some of the details about Tarkin and why he did the things he did. The details were explained in the film and didn't violate logic or decent explanation.

Here in dumbed down form, since your feeble mind is no match for the power of the Dark Side.

Tarkin command Death Star. Death Star blow up planets who join Rebels. Tarkin no give shit about lives lost. Maybe Tarkin sociopath, thus no give shit about lives lost? Sociopath real condition, it make sense. Tarkin stop at nothing to kill Rebels. Tarkin evil. Tarkin no disobey Palpatine because Palpatine evil boss, kill/punish Tarkin if he want to be Emperor. Why? Palpatine kill Vader when Vader kill Palpatine (and Vader then likely new Emperor). Also, Motti want be Emperor. (though Tarkin not know that, but maybe he expect something) Motti make "accident" kill for then Emperor Tarkin and be Emperor. Tarkin not want to be Emperor then, too dangerous.

With Gunray you aren't sure as to what he'll get out of the deal with Sidious. As others have said, how is he going to profit from blockading Naboo (and later invading it, as well as trying to kill investigators, which would be a criminal act)? I guess the idea was that he might force the Senate (which was already partly at least in its pocket) to lessen taxes on the trade routes it controlled by using Naboo as a hostage. But since Palpatine used sympathy for his planet to get Valorum replaced, Gunray couldn't get his objective completed. Corporate guys do not generally engage in long-running wars with powerful governmnets, since the Republic is now unifying against him under Sidious' commands. He likely knew Palps was Sid unless Palps was extremely good at hiding himself (maybe the Force made his mind weak, ala Mind Trick) but all he's wearing is a black robe that covers his eyes. You still hear his voice and see most of his face and you could simply as RLM said play back to the Senate and compare. Besides, what resources does Sidious possess to convince Gunray that he can get what he wants? He's one Sith with one apprentice against hundreds of Jedi.

people like Motti wishing to dispose of him

Oh I KNOW you're making that up. There's none of that at all in the briefing room scene, it's just Motti baiting Vader and trying to browbeat Tarkin into being more aggressive.

In the recent novel Death Star Motti does come off as ambitious, though not to the Starscream-like levels you imply. However, in the radio drama he's got his nose up Tarkin's asshole. Again, all EU extrapolation.

No, dumbshit. I'm not making that up. Under Motti's profile under Wookiepedia (the wiki for Star Wars that the official Star Wars website repeatedly links to it in the character articles to the corresponding ones for further information) he is listed as plotting to overthrow Tarkin later on. However, it is said on the page that he prods Tarkin repeatedly to do a coup against Palpatine after Yavin IV is destroyed and THEN knock off Tarkin and become the new Galactic Emperor. Here's the quote which lists Death Star as its source. Part is bolded.

"The admiral had been one of the strongest supporters of the Death Star project,[8] and felt that it was him, not Tarkin, who ran the battlestation's daily operations. He had attempted at least once to subtly convince Tarkin that whoever was in control of the Death Star held sway over the entire galaxy. Though Palpatine, ruling from Coruscant, was the Emperor, Motti was convinced that if Tarkin attempted to seize power by using the Death Star, he would be successful. Then, if something were to "accidentally" happen to Emperor Tarkin, his trusted assistant Motti would rise to power. Thus, Motti pretended to be loyal to the Grand Moff, all the while learning the ins and outs of the superweapon and gaining the loyalties of other key officers aboard the Death Star. During this time, he also commanded the Imperial-class Star Destroyer Steel Talon, which was part of the fleet guarding the Death Star above Despayre.[1]"

I'm pretty sure the book (and the info) is canon. If not, well then I learn something everyday.

I'm not the most skilled debater as you can see. I've been active, trying to understand this shit the day I first came here in 2005-06 (lurking, not signed up of course) so don't expect me to be able to counterattack your claims the best ways possibly.

Even if everything you said is true, so what? I showed that at least the EU and implications from the film(s) gave Tarkin a understandable character and reasons for doing what he did. Gunray and his TF buddies? Eh, not so much.

Tarkin is the major villain. His motives HAVE to make sense or otherwise the audience doesn't understand what's at stake.
Gunray and the Federation were the villains of TPM and their motivations weren't well explained. That made a big difference between the easy to understand epic ANH and the confused, muddled SFX showcase that is TPM.

emersonlakeandbalmer wrote:

Knife wrote:Most of the people who are 'defending' the film have admitted it wasn't the greatest movie in the world, just that the 'attack's are the silliest criticisms in the world. So... yeah, if you love the genera so much you're coming up with these particular nitpicks as if they are an affront to story telling, you're more of a 'fanboy' than the next guy who causally watches the film and doesn't need those nitpicks to make sense of it .

Oh good, then you can agree that RLM's assessment, while in your opinion nitpicky, is none the less accurate?

No one is saying you can't causally watch a film and ignore glaring mistakes and obtuse writing, rather we are simply saying "look at this dumb fucking idea. Pretty stupid." And it is. 30 years and Lucas gives us enemies without motivation, lifeless performances and 65 minute podrace (raynor, calm down, I'm exaggerating). But he did mange to get all of his marketing in order before releasing this hollow turd of storytelling. I don't know where I would be without my mountain dew jar jar binks can or my Naboo Chimichanga soft pack from taco bell. So at least he got those right.

No, bitching about taxes is silly and his assessment of Qui Gon is WAY of base and just dumb. Granted, it is his subjective opinion about how to tell a story, I just don't think I'd want to watch the film he made. Well, I watched a film he made and he's not that good at it either. About the only thing I can agree with you guys with is they seriously underutilized Maul, there is a lack of continuity between the three films, the pod race did suck, and everyone hates Jar Jar.

Knife wrote:No, bitching about taxes is silly and his assessment of Qui Gon is WAY of base and just dumb. Granted, it is his subjective opinion about how to tell a story, I just don't think I'd want to watch the film he made. Well, I watched a film he made and he's not that good at it either. About the only thing I can agree with you guys with is they seriously underutilized Maul, there is a lack of continuity between the three films, the pod race did suck, and everyone hates Jar Jar.

I can somewhat agree with you about RLM assessment of Qui Gon. Although I found it funny because I think Qui Gon is a boring character that indeed should have been combined with Obi Wan. I would have much rather seen the relationship between Obi and Anakin start developing right away in the prequels. As I said wasted opportunity.

However, I was talking about his assessment of the TF motivation. When bitching about taxes we're really talking about motivation. Destructionator's last post brings up some great points. Other than the open crawl we are given no motivation, the TF never is shown doing things for greed rather they are only doing things because they are told to do them. That's as shitty as the under use/lack of character of Maul. Lucas stumbled so badly out of the gate with the prequels he never found his footing and as you said brought about a "lack of continuity" across the films.

It's even more disheartening watching Lucas constantly tinker with the OT adding things that either serve no purpose (more rocks in front of R2) or actually change scene for the worse (Luke's scream while falling in ESB). I just have a feeling Lucas is more in love with what technology makes possible as opposed to what makes the film better.

Destructionator XIII wrote: And I'd say it worked out well... First Blood Part II kicked ass too, and the message is still relevant today.

Is the message let's go back and win the Vietnam war in the 80s? I haven't seen part 2 in a while. I know part 3 was about the Taliban. Awkward.

emersonlakeandbalmer wrote:
Is the message let's go back and win the Vietnam war in the 80s? I haven't seen part 2 in a while. I know part 3 was about the Taliban. Awkward.

1. Go back and win the Vietnam War? What a retarded message. Yeah, we could of won the war but we'd be occupyining it for decades after and nothing would really change much. S. Vietnam at best would be a Yeltsin-style with massive corruption and war.
2. Mujahideen, not Taliban. Sure, you may say there isn't a whole lot of difference. You'd be wrong. Just remember some Mujahideen will go out of their way and into danger to protect you from the more fundie members while the Taliban will hold you for ransom or behead you for being un-Islamic.

EDIT: Damn, I sense a hijack. Pretend this post doesn't exist. Back to discussing RLM's video guys.

emersonlakeandbalmer wrote:Although I found it funny because I think Qui Gon is a boring character that indeed should have been combined with Obi Wan. I would have much rather seen the relationship between Obi and Anakin start developing right away in the prequels. As I said wasted opportunity.

IIRC, according to Elfdart's favorite book, early scripts for TPM did that very thing. Apparently there was even a scene in which Obi-Wan talked Anakin through using the Force to fly the queen's ship through the blockade, actually showcasing his nascent skills as a great starpilot.

Aww, I made everybody all mad!

So...Stark called me "fat," thus causing me to spontaneously gain 200 pounds (you monster), strawmanned my position that some movies are not primarily about plot, and completely misread my opinion that TPM has a weak plot and that's a Really Bad Thing for that particular movie. Triumphant!

Crateria used Wookieepedia and scads of EU to give me Tarkin's and Motti's fucking biography without it even occurring to him that you could do the same for Gunray and that a NOVEL has been written about all this background Republic political horseshit. Also, seems to have missed the fact that the point of this thread is about the poor job the movie does filling all this in. Also, thinks I'm some sort of dick-waver about what a good debater I am? Compared to most regulars I hardly ever get pulled into debates.

Destructionator wrote another mountain of words about how I have to demonstrate that Gunray is a crappy villain, despite the fact that Gunray IS a crappy villain, regular people don't care because he's a secondary if not tertiary character, his motivation still manages to be clear as fucking day despite muddy details, the fact that TPM is a mediocre film has been common knowledge since some of us were in fucking grade school, and that the whole reason I popped into this thread is to laugh at the fact that there are 13 pages of people wringing their hands about the motivation of NUTE FUCKING GUNRAY. What I'm trying to say is, you might have missed the point a little.

I have zero interest in defending TPM's flaws, whether they are irrelevant trivia or systemic flaws that greatly impede enjoyment. I just think this thread could be interesting if it focused more on the latter.

Channel 72:

Really? You honestly believe this is moving the goalposts? Because this is exactly what I've been arguing since the beginning of the thread.

Me wrote:Goalposts = moved, assuming that you are coming at this from the same angle as Insane Galvatron.

That's what you get for interrupting an exchange of blithe one-liners, fiend! To clarify, you didn't move your goalposts (AFAIK, cause I'd rather be shot than reread this whole thread to be sure), but it seemed a bit like you picked up Galvatron's and carried them a ways.

Galvatron wrote:

emersonlakeandbalmer wrote:Although I found it funny because I think Qui Gon is a boring character that indeed should have been combined with Obi Wan. I would have much rather seen the relationship between Obi and Anakin start developing right away in the prequels. As I said wasted opportunity.

IIRC, according to Elfdart's favorite book, early scripts for TPM did that very thing. Apparently there was even a scene in which Obi-Wan talked Anakin through using the Force to fly the queen's ship through the blockade, actually showcasing his nascent skills as a great starpilot.

This was back when Obi-Wan hadn't been split into the Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon characters, right? I haven't read it but at least that version wouldn't violate Scriptwriting 101 by not having a clear main character. (It probably ought to be Qui-Gon, but the split muddies things just enough so that it might be Anakin. It's certainly not Obi-Wan, who is criminally underused.)

What makes you think that a lack of motivation on the part of the individual who serves as the primary antagonist for the majority of the movie is a trivial flaw? A movie that works if you don't think about it doesn't really work at all, not any more than a house of cards is a sturdy piece of architecture.

There are cases where you can have no motivation for your antagonist, but those are where the antagonist is a human representation of greater forces, and only the Emperor comes even close to doing this, although he lacks critical elements.

Anguirus wrote:This was back when Obi-Wan hadn't been split into the Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon characters, right? I haven't read it but at least that version wouldn't violate Scriptwriting 101 by not having a clear main character. (It probably ought to be Qui-Gon, but the split muddies things just enough so that it might be Anakin. It's certainly not Obi-Wan, who is criminally underused.)

I think Qui-Gon was still in it, but showed up later when the Obi-Wan brought the queen and Anakin to Coruscant. IIRC, Lucas changed it because he wanted to showcase a proper master/padawan relationship throughout TPM.

I already said elsewhere that from a storytelling perspective Obi Wan's and Qui Gon's roles should have been reversed. The eager, just knighted Obi Wan willing to take on the immense task of tutoring a hotheaded Anakin with large potential vs. a somber and reserved old master who cautions him to take things slow and easy. That would also have been in line with Kenobi's lines in ANH, that he had hoped he could have been as a great a teacher as Yoda and failed.

As it is Qui Gon usurps what should have been Kenobi's natural position in TPM which causes the latter to have actually no point in being even present in the story.

EDIT:
You could remove all scenes featuring Obi Wan except for the last one where he becomes Anakin's master from TPM and the story wouldn't change much.

Anguirus wrote:
Crateria used Wookieepedia and scads of EU to give me Tarkin's and Motti's fucking biography without it even occurring to him that you could do the same for Gunray and that a NOVEL has been written about all this background Republic political horseshit. Also, seems to have missed the fact that the point of this thread is about the poor job the movie does filling all this in. Also, thinks I'm some sort of dick-waver about what a good debater I am? Compared to most regulars I hardly ever get pulled into debates.

Both me and Destructinator gave you explanations at to why Tarkin works as a villain while Gunray and the TF do not. They don't have good reasons for the things they do, compared to Tarkin who, if you'd managed to even bother understanding the posts we made, has his motivations and logical actions explained by watching ANH and reading a little EU. Tarkin works for the Empire and likes the job of killing rebel planets. Everything he does is related to the goal. Motti's a side distraction at best but also shows the dangers of believing in invicibility in technology and underestimating the Force. He also shows the power-hunger and delusions of grandeur that people who are thrust into a position like that are overcome by.

A biography? I gave you a little paragraph and told you to connect the damn dots. You don't even need to read Death Star to get the idea that maybe being the most powerful guy in the galaxy makes you a big target for your so-called allies like Motti. They'll want the job due to wanting to play God as many people do. What better way to do so than be a little devil and whisper in the head guy's ear every now and then to get what you want? It's called lobbying, fool.

Watch TPM and it fails to convey why Gunray would support Palps scheme. Hell, YOU even say that yourself and yet you ignore that critical piece of info. TPM doesn't work because it tries to keep us in the dark with a false victory for good (and a real victory for Sidious) while also not having reason as to why the TF would do such bizarre things as it did. An illegitimate bad government's brutal retaliations against rebels? It's understandable, it makes sense.

A trade corporation or whatever the hell it is first blockading a planet and then invading it from proding by a guy they barely know for reasons that aren't really elaborated on? What the fuck?

Tell me now, what great revelations come from the TPM novelization? Does it explain why Gunray and the other TF guys went along with Palps plan? If so, great, but too bad. As you said, the movie should have made this clearer. I didn't miss that little fact; It's the main reason why I'm here debating with you now instead of in some other topic talking about other things.

And since you failed to even address that and instead put the blame on me and all the other people in the post you made, we have a reason to be angry. Ignorance of your kind is very hard to put up with. Mockery of stupid people, remember?

Look, I don't know why you're even talking about this anymore; Angurius has declared that *REGULAR* people don't care. That means 'stop talking about it wah you're hurting my feelings'. That example? He didn't mean it! He knows words like plot honest - just stop talking you're hurting his fragile brain!

We should DEFINITELY never talk about anything that *REGULAR* people don't care about on this site. Right guys?

Stark wrote:Look, I don't know why you're even talking about this anymore; Angurius has declared that *REGULAR* people don't care. That means 'stop talking about it wah you're hurting my feelings'. That example? He didn't mean it! He knows words like plot honest - just stop talking you're hurting his fragile brain!

We should DEFINITELY never talk about anything that *REGULAR* people don't care about on this site. Right guys?

Quite truly. Regular people *coughbackpeddlingsoreloserretards* would never discuss things like this, right? But then why are the regular people here? After all, isn't SD. Net weirdo central?

Galvatron wrote:

Elfdart wrote:

Destructionator XIII wrote:The BLOCKADE was legal.

Says who?

Ah, so that's your new angle.

It's not an "angle", jackass. The only character who says the blockade is legal in Gunray, who (a) is the one doing the blockade and more importantly (b) is the same character who insists that he knows nothing about any representatives from the chancellor after he just tried to have them killed.

Now this may come as a shock to you so I hope you're sitting down when you read this:


Villains in movies...
















LIE!


They also cheat, steal, kill, rape and do other nasty things.

It's a bit of a lol that issues like these were highlighted when the movie came out. It's not like anyone just sat down and invented false criticisms of a beloved movie.

It's great that even the Stardestroyer 'reactions' thing for TPM is basically 'who are these guys? What is their plan?'

Elfdart wrote:[

Villains in movies...
LIE!

They also cheat, steal, kill, rape and do other nasty things.

Please point to the scene where the blockade is said to be illegal and I will point to the scene where Nute Gunray rapes Padame.

Destructionator XIII wrote:I guess I phrased that awkwardly, but I was talking about the first movie's message about veterans going through shit and often needing help for their mental health.

I do love Rambo 2, but that's just because it kicks ass. (though I could perhaps talk about the idea of not forgetting about POWs, and blaming politicians for wars, not soldiers... more than I've been able to think up for TPM's higher meaning so far...)

No I was just joking. I don't care much for Part II and think its funny that Rambo destroys an entire army single handed. As for Part 3, yes there is a distinction and he didn't really help the Taliban. I forgot to hit my sarcasm button when posting.

Cesario wrote:We only know that it had something to do with the taxation of trade routes. We don't know how that connects to the invasion of Naboo. We don't even know what about this taxation riled up Gunray enough to strike a deal with Sideous.

No, a few Red Letter Morons don't know. Non-retards who watched the movie know that the Trade Federation, being described as greedy, would resent a tax on trade routes -the means by which a trade organization makes money: the thing that greedy people want.

Now one could come up with alternate motives for the TF to act as they did, but this IS a Star Wars movie and not The Big Sleep, so the simpler explanation is a better fit and doesn't require the kinds of bullfuckery you get from Heathcliff's fanboys.

emersonlakeandbalmer wrote:

Elfdart wrote:[

Villains in movies...
LIE!

They also cheat, steal, kill, rape and do other nasty things.

Please point to the scene where the blockade is said to be illegal and I will point to the scene where Nute Gunray rapes Padame.

Please go fuck yourself with cattle-prod for being a dishonest troll.