Trayvon Martin Case (Zimmerman charged; 2nd deg. murder)

[Aniron]

As for the broken nose, it could be that it was initially thought to be broken and turned out not to be.

Then why was his lawyer saying he suffered from a broken nose? I'm sure by the time he said that his injuries would have been sorted out. Keep on grasping for straws. It makes for lovely entertainment.

[The Yosemite Bear]

now lets look at where things don't add up

FOX+Zimmermen
He wasn't on the phone, that his GF is lying
Reality
Cell phone records show that he was talking to his Girl friend.The blue tooth head seat he wore fell to the side walk and was STEPED on/broken

FOX+Zimmerman's family
Zimmerman was WALKING back to his truck when Martain ambushed him

physuical evidence
911 calls show that Zimmerman is clearly running
altercation happened in the open back yards between two rows of town houses, 2/3 of the way up the block from where the truck is parked, Martin's body is found face down, on the grass with feet near the concrete (more physically like he was running away and shot in the back). It's also physically impossible from the google earth/street cam video of the news reporters have shown of the location where the altercation took place for someone to lie in wait (no fences, sure garbage cans but those can be not provide sufficiant cover) so no ambush possible (though it was a dark & rainy night.

while martain was physically on top of zimmerman pummeling him, Travon made a move for zimmerman's gun.

pistol is in a waist band holster, so if Martain is on TOP of Zimmerman's chest he would have to be able to see something that is BEHIND and underneath him, from the wrong angle). Furthermore if Martain had been hitting Zimmerman on the concrete: where's the physical damage to Zimmerman, where's the damage to martain's hands?, dude scalp wounds BLEED, like lots I know i've hit my head on accident a NUMBER of times, I still have scar tissue from getting hit by a low branch while riding a horse without a helmet. (not to mention there was bits of the branch in my scalp, dirt all over my head) Where's the blood and grass stains? erm I've had a childhood, grass and blood get everywhere (not as bad as tar), but they do stain and are very hard to treat/get out to the point there are special products just for getting those stains out.

so basically a layman can see that the story being put forth by the Sanford Police, FOX News, and Zimmerman's family is mostly at odds with reality.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I've played back yard football, I've seen noses that were just bloodied, not actual broken bone, (and a couple of cases of actual broken bone) and those get blood EVERYWHERE, plus swell up the face, change speach patterns etc.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I think you misunderstand. I'm not dismissing the video. The video isn't clear and because it isn't clear is why I was speculating because our imaginations have made us think of what his condition was based off his story. You may have been picturing Zimmerman with a serious nose bleed.

However, you're right other explanations of why the blood isn't visible or why we can't see injuries is speculation. Consider that conceded. If the police didn't take his clothing and/or document his injuries close up then this video is good evidence that Martin might not be telling the truth.

What I'm trying to imagine is someone who a couple hours before apparently had a 17 year old throw him to the ground, mount him, and beat him so badly that his life was in danger that he shot the kid from that position, while the kid was on top of him. That's Zimmerman's story, right?

yes, and the 13 year old dog walker who rounded the corner right after the shot rang out, said that he got up really fast (would have to have been the person on TOP)

[Simon_Jester]

Re: Yosemite:

I can believe that Zimmerman was cleaned up and given a change of clothes before he appeared on the footage we saw. But there should still be some evidence somewhere if he was injured as badly as he said.

The identified witnesses are at least putting their reputation on the line, potentially- if it is proven that they were lying, they might face some ramifications at some point in their lives. For the anonymous witness, this is not the case.

I'm not sure what those ramifications would be. I'm not aware of any ramifications for a witness that is mistaken about what they saw. Get my drift?

I'm not thinking in terms of serious trouble or legal trouble, I'm just thinking in terms of "someone might conceivably say 'hey, I remember you, you said a lot of bullshit on the 5 o'clock news.'" It's not significant, and someone who sincerely thought the wrong thing, or had a strong motive to lie, might still say things that weren't true. But it's something.

Anonymity does remove some of that, so all else being equal I would take the word of a named witness (who puts some tiny bit of their reputation on the line by speaking) over an anonymous witness (who doesn't). The difference is fairly marginal, though; "John's" anonymity is not the big governing factor in my mind. What bothers me more is the lack of any physical evidence that supports the narrative "John's" statements support: other than Zimmerman and "John's" own word, there doesn't seem to be anything else supporting the idea that he and Martin were grappling and that Zimmerman had been badly beaten before he shot Martin.

I am inclined to believe a story which is at least a rough match to the known physical facts, over a story which doesn't match the physical facts. Even if the facts are circumstantial evidence, I still do this: I am not weighing Zimmerman's guilt in the context of a courtroom, I am trying to figure out percent probabilities or something. Right now, if someone asked me to bet five dollars on whether Zimmerman really murdered Martin or whether it was self-defense, I would bet on murder, regardless of "John's" report and Zimmerman's own protests to the contrary.

If I were on a jury judging Zimmerman's guilt or innocence, then I would want more evidence- like the police and medical reports about his injuries, or lack thereof.

Also, the identified witnesses' testimony is... less important to the case, I think. If the two women are revealed to be paid actresses, it knocks out one line of evidence of multiple ones. If the one man is revealed to be a friend of Zimmerman's trying to make him look good by lying to the media, then as far as I can tell, the only evidence we have for Zimmerman's claim of self-defense is his own word... and his word is at least questionable in light of the absence of evidence for his injuries.

The paid actresses was not a serious statement. I was poking fun at Hammer's "does he even exist" comment. I agree, if it is only Zimmerman's word and he has no injuries then his claim is very suspect..

That was kind of my point. Knock out the statement of one anonymous man that Zimmerman and Martin were fighting, and there is NO evidence other than Zimmerman's word that they were fighting. Knock out the statement of the two named women that Martin was crying out for help, and there is STILL evidence suggesting that Zimmerman and Martin were not fighting.

I think SVPD means...what do you expect to see from a video of that quality?

Okay, maybe I'm jumping to conclusions- suffice to say that without visible or documentary evidence that Zimmerman was injured that night, I am reluctant to believe any claim he makes that he was beaten. If the documents won't be released I'm stuck looking at the pictures for evidence.

[Agent Fisher]

I think you misunderstand. I'm not dismissing the video. The video isn't clear and because it isn't clear is why I was speculating because our imaginations have made us think of what his condition was based off his story. You may have been picturing Zimmerman with a serious nose bleed.

However, you're right other explanations of why the blood isn't visible or why we can't see injuries is speculation. Consider that conceded. If the police didn't take his clothing and/or document his injuries close up then this video is good evidence that Martin might not be telling the truth.

What I'm trying to imagine is someone who a couple hours before apparently had a 17 year old throw him to the ground, mount him, and beat him so badly that his life was in danger that he shot the kid from that position, while the kid was on top of him. That's Zimmerman's story, right?

Hell, if I'm pinned underneath someone and they're punching me, it'll take just one punch and I'm fearing for my life cause i know the guy can do some real serious damage. At that point, yes, I'd pulled my firearm and put a few in the guy.

Now, the circumstances that led to that situation, well, I'm still withholding judgement until we get all the facts.

[SVPD]

As for the broken nose, it could be that it was initially thought to be broken and turned out not to be.

Then why was his lawyer saying he suffered from a broken nose? I'm sure by the time he said that his injuries would have been sorted out. Keep on grasping for straws. It makes for lovely entertainment.

Like I said, it "could be". It's a lawyer. They say a lot of shit, especially in public. There's no straw-grasping going on. I relaize that some of you may like to think that because Zimmerman's injuries are not obvious on a surveillance camera that has a grainy image, is not designed to capture such things, and is from a strange angle to look for such detailt hat there's some sort of smoking gun there, but it's not. Zimmerman's injuries not being obvious on that camera does not mean they didn't exist, espcially when the police report says they were observed at the scene. They don't need to be big and spectacular to exist.

[SVPD]

That was kind of my point. Knock out the statement of one anonymous man that Zimmerman and Martin were fighting, and there is NO evidence other than Zimmerman's word that they were fighting. Knock out the statement of the two named women that Martin was crying out for help, and there is STILL evidence suggesting that Zimmerman and Martin were not fighting.

Exactly what evidence is there suggesting they weren't fighting? There certainly is evidence that they were fighting beyond Zimmerman's word. The officers observed the blood, grass stains, and injuries at the scene. They noted it in the report. The camera is not deisgned, intended, or positioned to verify or disprove this sort of evidence, not to mention ABCs inept interference. People are looking at this video, not seeing big spectacular injuries that would be visible on a video of that sort and assuming they must therefore not exist.

[SVPD]

yes, and the 13 year old dog walker who rounded the corner right after the shot rang out, said that he got up really fast (would have to have been the person on TOP)

No.. it wouldn't. "Really fast" is highly subjective. So is "right after". How long after? 5 seconds? 3? That's enough time to push an incapacitated person off you and start standing up.

[Aniron]

People are looking at this video, not seeing big spectacular injuries that would be visible on a video of that sort and assuming they must therefore not exist.

So, paramedics don't cover cuts with bandages? I expect injuries to be indicative of the choice to use deadly force. Blows to the face produce cuts and bruising. There are no bandages. How are you not a joke?

[Simon_Jester]

SVPD, I feel like you're really asking me to bend over backwards here. I'm supposed to ignore everything but the statements that Zimmerman was injured and that he'd been fighting with Martin, and take Zimmerman's word for Martin having threatened him. I'm not supposed to pay attention to any witnesses who say they heard Martin calling for help, or look for evidence of a struggle on Martin's body, or Zimmerman's clothing.

Which to me feels like Zimmerman's entire defense is relying heavily on "dead men tell no tales."

That was kind of my point. Knock out the statement of one anonymous man that Zimmerman and Martin were fighting, and there is NO evidence other than Zimmerman's word that they were fighting. Knock out the statement of the two named women that Martin was crying out for help, and there is STILL evidence suggesting that Zimmerman and Martin were not fighting.

Exactly what evidence is there suggesting they weren't fighting?

There's Martin's phone conversation with his girlfriend (which we haven't seen, but then we haven't seen the police report on Zimmerman's injuries either; we're assured these things exist without being able to see them). There are the witnesses who heard Martin shouting for help, not Martin confronting Zimmerman and threatening to kill him.

[Losonti Tokash]

Would whoever treated him at the scene have been required to file a report?

The EMTs would have made an extremely detailed report of all injuries and treatments, along with making every effort to preserve evidence whenever possible.

[aerius]

There's Martin's phone conversation with his girlfriend (which we haven't seen, but then we haven't seen the police report on Zimmerman's injuries either; we're assured these things exist without being able to see them). There are the witnesses who heard Martin shouting for help, not Martin confronting Zimmerman and threatening to kill him.

See, this is why I'm not going to call the case, WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED, AND WE CAN'T PROVE IT EITHER WAY. All we have so far is a bunch of eyewitness accounts of unknown reliability, the word of the Zimmerman, again of unknown reliability, some recorded phone calls (unknown reliability again), and some statements of unknown reliability which were allegedly taken or leaked from various police reports. Forensics hasn't released a thing, we don't have crime scene documentation, we don't have the full statements from the officers or EMTs at the scene, we have jack and shit. Nothing we have is better than gut feeling, and if you tried to take the case to trial with what's available to the public right now you'd get laughed out of court, and rightfully so.

[Simon_Jester]

This is true.

Personally, if I had to bet five dollars on what really happened, I know how I'd bet- but I might lose, I recognize that.

And yet Zimmerman's story seems very self-serving, not particularly compatible with the recorded 911 call, and far enough out of line with what all but a handful of the civilians who have said anything about the case is saying that it triggers suspicion on my part.

To me, it seems very strange and improbable that Martin would randomly attack Zimmerman without provocation and make blatant death threats while unarmed; it seems less strange and improbable that Zimmerman got twitchy and provoked a confrontation. Hence the way I'd bet.

[Kamakazie Sith]

What I'm trying to imagine is someone who a couple hours before apparently had a 17 year old throw him to the ground, mount him, and beat him so badly that his life was in danger that he shot the kid from that position, while the kid was on top of him. That's Zimmerman's story, right?

I don't recall Zimmerman stating he was beaten badly. Just that he was punched in the face and then Martin was slamming his head into the ground. Police reports say he was bleeding from the face and back of the head. I don't recall severity being mentioned. Again, you don't have to already be seriously injured to reasonable fear for your life.

physuical evidence
911 calls show that Zimmerman is clearly running
altercation happened in the open back yards between two rows of town houses, 2/3 of the way up the block from where the truck is parked, Martin's body is found face down, on the grass with feet near the concrete (more physically like he was running away and shot in the back). It's also physically impossible from the google earth/street cam video of the news reporters have shown of the location where the altercation took place for someone to lie in wait (no fences, sure garbage cans but those can be not provide sufficiant cover) so no ambush possible (though it was a dark & rainy night.

If he was shot in the back an autopsy would reveal this.

while martain was physically on top of zimmerman pummeling him, Travon made a move for zimmerman's gun.

pistol is in a waist band holster, so if Martain is on TOP of Zimmerman's chest he would have to be able to see something that is BEHIND and underneath him, from the wrong angle). Furthermore if Martain had been hitting Zimmerman on the concrete: where's the physical damage to Zimmerman, where's the damage to martain's hands?, dude scalp wounds BLEED, like lots I know i've hit my head on accident a NUMBER of times, I still have scar tissue from getting hit by a low branch while riding a horse without a helmet. (not to mention there was bits of the branch in my scalp, dirt all over my head) Where's the blood and grass stains? erm I've had a childhood, grass and blood get everywhere (not as bad as tar), but they do stain and are very hard to treat/get out to the point there are special products just for getting those stains out.

I to would like to see the evidence of Zimmerman's injuries. Like I said they should have been documented by the police using photographs and not just a description in a narrative. I believe your story on head wounds and I've seen head wounds bleed profusely as well. However, I've also seen head wounds hardly bleed at all. Specifically, these juveniles rolled a car they stole. One of them had a two inch laceration on his forehead. The blood had smeared and was bleeding very slowly.

yes, and the 13 year old dog walker who rounded the corner right after the shot rang out, said that he got up really fast (would have to have been the person on TOP)

Define...really fast and why would it have to be the person top?

So, paramedics don't cover cuts with bandages? I expect injuries to be indicative of the choice to use deadly force. Blows to the face produce cuts and bruising. There are no bandages. How are you not a joke?

Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't. Are you asserting that EMTs always bandage cuts? I don't recall the details of Zimmerman injuries. Could you point that part out for us?

SVPD, I feel like you're really asking me to bend over backwards here. I'm supposed to ignore everything but the statements that Zimmerman was injured and that he'd been fighting with Martin, and take Zimmerman's word for Martin having threatened him. I'm not supposed to pay attention to any witnesses who say they heard Martin calling for help, or look for evidence of a struggle on Martin's body, or Zimmerman's clothing.

Which to me feels like Zimmerman's entire defense is relying heavily on "dead men tell no tales."

My problem with the witnesses that said they heard Martin crying for help is this; "“This was not self-defense,” Cutcher said. “We heard no fighting, no wrestling, no punching. We heard a boy crying. As soon as the shot went off, it stopped, which tells me it was the child crying. If it had been Zimmerman crying, it wouldn’t have stopped. If you’re hurting, you’re hurting.”"

She is admitting that she doesn't really know who she heard crying. She assumes it was Martin because it stopped after the shot and feels Zimmerman would have still be crying for help after he stopped the threat. That makes no sense to me.

[Kamakazie Sith]

This is true.

Personally, if I had to bet five dollars on what really happened, I know how I'd bet- but I might lose, I recognize that.

And yet Zimmerman's story seems very self-serving, not particularly compatible with the recorded 911 call, and far enough out of line with what all but a handful of the civilians who have said anything about the case is saying that it triggers suspicion on my part.

To me, it seems very strange and improbable that Martin would randomly attack Zimmerman without provocation and make blatant death threats while unarmed; it seems less strange and improbable that Zimmerman got twitchy and provoked a confrontation. Hence the way I'd bet.

I think it's a very reasonable bet.

[Aniron]

Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't. Are you asserting that EMTs always bandage cuts? I don't recall the details of Zimmerman injuries. Could you point that part out for us?

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-New ... n-injuries

The Orlando Sentinel, citing anonymous sources, has reported that Martin grabbed Zimmerman's head and banged it several times against the sidewalk. A statement from Sanford police said the newspaper's story was "consistent" with evidence turned over to prosecutors.

Sonner said the gash on the back of Zimmerman's head probably was serious enough for stitches, but he waited too long for treatment so the wound was already healing. Miguel Meza, who identified himself as Zimmerman's cousin, said Zimmerman was in "the fight of his life."

So, yes, I expect to see bandages on this guy.

[Kamakazie Sith]

So, yes, I expect to see bandages on this guy.

Why? According to this statement this injury had stopped bleeding. Maybe Zimmerman told them that he didn't want any bandages. Maybe the EMTs felt like he didn't need them.

Losonti Tokash, do you always apply bandages to every wound?

[Aniron]

So, yes, I expect to see bandages on this guy.

Why? According to this statement this injury had stopped bleeding. Maybe Zimmerman told them that he didn't want any bandages. Maybe the EMTs felt like he didn't need them.

Losonti Tokash, do you always apply bandages to every wound?

I never said "every wound," you blithering idiot. I said that I expect to see wounds showing treatment if deadly force was being used as an excuse for blasting away an unarmed individual. I do get a kick out of you inferring that someone getting their head slammed against the sidewalk multiple times would not need treatment. You are just as much a riot as SVPD. Just fuck off now back to defending your copper buddies.

Edit: In what world do you live in where "serious enough for stitches" means an EMT wouldn't treat such a wound?

[aerius]

Personally, if I had to bet five dollars on what really happened, I know how I'd bet- but I might lose, I recognize that.

And yet Zimmerman's story seems very self-serving, not particularly compatible with the recorded 911 call, and far enough out of line with what all but a handful of the civilians who have said anything about the case is saying that it triggers suspicion on my part.

To me, it seems very strange and improbable that Martin would randomly attack Zimmerman without provocation and make blatant death threats while unarmed; it seems less strange and improbable that Zimmerman got twitchy and provoked a confrontation. Hence the way I'd bet.

Sure, and playing devil's advocate I could come up with equally plausible story for Martin being the one to instigate the confrontation. We know that Martin has been caught with marijuana baggies before, so I could plausibly say that he was high as a kite during the events that led to his death. He's also been caught with burglary tools so I can also say he looked like he was scoping out houses to rob.

Maybe he was smoking a joint which is why Zimmerman decided to follow him and see what's up, at which point Martin ditched the joint and tried to shake him off his tracks. And since paranoia is a known side-effect of pot, he decided that shaking Zimmerman off his tail wasn't enough, cause maybe he'd recognize Martin and put him in jail so he went back to beat the shit out of Zimmerman and silence him for good. He jumps Zimmerman from behind, a struggle goes down, and he's justifiably shot under Florida's self-defence laws. The phone calls? Well Martin was fucking high, that's why it doesn't make sense and jibe with the events.

Did it go down that way in real life? I don't know, but AT THIS POINT it's no more or less plausible than Zimmerman's account of what took place.

[SVPD]

SVPD, I think that yes it makes Zimmerman look worse.

I mean come on, for Christ's sake. Person A claims to have gotten into a desperate grappling fight with Person B. They wrestle, Person B is pounding Person A against the ground and generally mauling him, Person A pulls out a gun and shoots Person B.

What would we expect to see? If I asked you "what does Person A look like five minutes after the shooting," what would you say?

I'd say you're asking me to make an assumption. We don't know. Each instance of that will be different. If it happened a hundred times, would you expect them all to be the same?

We would expect to see signs that A had been injured- scrapes, bruises, swelling. If he had indeed shot a man in the chest while literally being grappled by that man, we would expect to see some of B's blood on A.

And the police report indicates the officers did see exactly that. Just because it isn't on a grainy camera image that's above his head doesn't mean it isn't there. That's not what that camera is intended to capture. If someone had taken a full frontal camera shot, with a nice clear image that would be a lot better. You're assuming that the injuries have to be really big, obvious ones. They don't.

If A doesn't have a single damned mark on him or his clothing, doesn't this call into question his claim to have been in a fight? I don't know about you, but if someone jumped me from behind and started beating me into the ground and I wrestled with him for a minute and then pulled out my gun and shot him in the chest while he was sitting on top of me punching me in the face, I know I'd be pretty thoroughly mussed.

If that were the case, then yes, but that's contradicting the observations of the officers at the scene. The only marks we can say he doesn't have are big, obvious ones that would show up on a relatively poor quality security camera that's not positioned to easily show such things. We also see one of the cops looking at the back of Zimmerman's head.

Did the cops just decide to fabricate their observations at the scene? Did they think to have someone inspect Zimmerman's head at the station just for the benefit of that camera? I don't think so. Using this camera video to say he doesn't have marks is the same as using the phone to say he said "fucking coon". It's possible, but not even close to conclusive.

It's one thing to presume innocence. It's another thing to ignore holes in an alibi because the alibi must by default be assumed to be true.

No one is "ignoring holes in his alibi" because the video doesn't create any. What's being ignored are A) the observations of the officers at the scene, B) the actions of the officer looking at his head in the station and C) the extreme unsuitability of that camera for determining the extent of a person's injuries. That camera is in that position to cover the entire sally port and what goes on in there; it isn't there to document fine details. Its purpose is to prevent mischief in the sally port.

This is yet another case of confirmation bias in looking at a video. It's not the right sort of video for the conclusions you are trying to draw from it.

[Kamakazie Sith]

So, yes, I expect to see bandages on this guy.

Why? According to this statement this injury had stopped bleeding. Maybe Zimmerman told them that he didn't want any bandages. Maybe the EMTs felt like he didn't need them.

Losonti Tokash, do you always apply bandages to every wound?

I never said "every wound," you blithering idiot. I said that I expect to see wounds showing treatment if deadly force was being used as an excuse for blasting away an unarmed individual.

Regarding "every wound" are you Losonti Tokash? No? Then shut the fuck up.

I'm glad I'm entertaining you. You'll be pleased to know that I feel the same about you at this point well mostly just the idiot part. You have yet to entertain me but you do have time.

Why do you expect wounds that require treatment? Does the criminal code in Florida require that you must have injuries that meet Aniron's expectations, or wound that require medical treatment, before you can use deadly force? No. It doesn't. Your expectations are completely irrelevant.

I do get a kick out of you inferring that someone getting their head slammed against the sidewalk multiple times would not need treatment.

And I get a kick out of you thinking you know what you're talking about. According to your quote the wound had already stopped bleeding. What does that tell you?

You are just as much a riot as SVPD. Just fuck off now back to defending your copper buddies.

Are you accusing me of defending the Sanford Police Department in this thread? Who says "copper" any more anyway...what are you a 1940s american gangster?

[aerius]

Using this camera video to say he doesn't have marks is the same as using the phone to say he said "fucking coon". It's possible, but not even close to conclusive.

Yup, I can't get anything definite out of the phone recording, for all I know he could've said "fucking goons". Lots of other people think he said "coon", but it could easily be "goon". Good luck proving that one out either way, as you said, it's inconclusive.

[SVPD]

I never said "every wound," you blithering idiot. I said that I expect to see wounds showing treatment if deadly force was being used as an excuse for blasting away an unarmed individual. I do get a kick out of you inferring that someone getting their head slammed against the sidewalk multiple times would not need treatment. You are just as much a riot as SVPD. Just fuck off now back to defending your copper buddies.

Edit: In what world do you live in where "serious enough for stitches" means an EMT wouldn't treat such a wound?

Maybe in a world where EMTs don't treat every wound because it may be better not to treat it?

Furthermore, what does the seriousness of the wounds have to do with whether deadly force was warranted? What matters is if Martin was in a position to inflict such wounds, not whether he succeeded. If a person is shot at and missed, does that mean their lack of bullet wounds somehow makes it excessive if they shoot back and hit their attacker? Even for an unarmed attacker, we don't do this. How the fuck is Zimmerman supposed to know how obvious his injuries are if he's laying there with Martin on top of him? How is he supposed to know what the next blow will bring?

As for "getting their head slammed against the sidewalk" we don't know that Zimmerman was on a sidewalk. The police report said grass stains were observed on the back of his shirt. We also don't know, and it really doesn't matter, what exact type of attack Martin might have been making. The point is that if he was in Zimmermans mount and attacking him, he was utilizing deadly force or what a reasonable person in Zimmerman's position would perceive as deadly force as it appeared to him at the time and in the circumstances he was in. Not based on how it appears to someone sitting at home typing on their computer.

[Gil Hamilton]

I don't recall Zimmerman stating he was beaten badly. Just that he was punched in the face and then Martin was slamming his head into the ground. Police reports say he was bleeding from the face and back of the head. I don't recall severity being mentioned. Again, you don't have to already be seriously injured to reasonable fear for your life.

Are you joshing me? Zimmerman's brother has been giving tons of interviews talking about how badly Martin was kicking his ass and Zimmerman was busted up and barely conscious. That the medical records would show how badly Zimmerman was hurt and that if he hadn't have shot Martin, he would have been killed by the attack. All of which Zimmerman relayed to his brother to relay to the media, because they guy himself refuses to be seen in public and show the injuries himself that apparently he brutally sustained.