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Crazedwraith wrote:You know pointlessly slagging off the show i nevery post is no longer required even if this is a vs forum.

Style over substance fallacy much?

I'm sorry there was substance in your post?

Hand-waving everything as incompetence isn't really analysis.

Crazedwraith wrote:I'm sorry there was substance in your post?

Hand-waving everything as incompetence isn't really analysis.

Unless you can come up with a better explanation for how he let the Enterprise get assraped by a single BoP whose gunner was so utterly useless that 2 out of every 3 shots missed completely, "incompetence" is putting it mildly.

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:I'm sorry there was substance in your post?

Hand-waving everything as incompetence isn't really analysis.

Unless you can come up with a better explanation for how he let the Enterprise get assraped by a single BoP whose gunner was so utterly useless that 2 out of every 3 shots missed completely, "incompetence" is putting it mildly.

But that has nothing to do with ramming the Borg cube.

I wasn't suggesting it was a "ahh fuck it" as in incompetence, I meant as a last ditch thing which probably wouldn't work. Generations has nothing to do with this.

Crazedwraith wrote:I'm sorry there was substance in your post?

Hand-waving everything as incompetence isn't really analysis.

I'm sorry. I forgot Trekkies are all mindless religous zealots who mistake the mouthing of dogma for analysis, and get all huffy whenever said dogma is questioned, or made fun of.

How dare I.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:I'm sorry there was substance in your post?

Hand-waving everything as incompetence isn't really analysis.

Unless you can come up with a better explanation for how he let the Enterprise get assraped by a single BoP whose gunner was so utterly useless that 2 out of every 3 shots missed completely, "incompetence" is putting it mildly.

But that has nothing to do with ramming the Borg cube.

I wasn't suggesting it was a "ahh fuck it" as in incompetence, I meant as a last ditch thing which probably wouldn't work. Generations has nothing to do with this.

Yeah, Prometheus Unbound, gets it.

Yes, a limited budget and bad writing makes Riker appear very incompetent but in-universe he's supposed to be competent. He's XO of the best ship the fleet. Offered multiple commands etc. And also not censured for his Generations incompetence.

What I mean is if we write all the characters off as incompetent or idiots based on that one time they performed badly/said something unscientific then we cease to be able to make sense of their actions or the universe because hey they're idiots who knows what they're doing.

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:I'm sorry there was substance in your post?

Hand-waving everything as incompetence isn't really analysis.

I'm sorry. I forgot Trekkies are all mindless religous zealots who mistake the mouthing of dogma for analysis, and get all huffy whenever said dogma is questioned, or made fun of.

How dare I.

Seriously man take bloody good look in the mirror, if there's a fanatic in this debate it's you. instead of going "HOW DARE YOU CLAIM STAR TREK IS MORE COMPOPENT THEN 2 YEAR OLD ON A SUGAR HIGH, YOU MUST BE A TREKKIE FANATIC!" look at what is being said. Both men you accused of being fanatics have a long history of arguing for the opposition, something a fanatic wouldn't do, infact would probably die before giving an the opposition their dues.

Oh before you accuse me of being a trekkie take a good look at my screen name, ever wondered where it came.
Spoiler

Crazedwraith wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: Unless you can come up with a better explanation for how he let the Enterprise get assraped by a single BoP whose gunner was so utterly useless that 2 out of every 3 shots missed completely, "incompetence" is putting it mildly.

But that has nothing to do with ramming the Borg cube.

I wasn't suggesting it was a "ahh fuck it" as in incompetence, I meant as a last ditch thing which probably wouldn't work. Generations has nothing to do with this.

Yeah, Prometheus Unbound, gets it.

Yes, a limited budget and bad writing makes Riker appear very incompetent but in-universe he's supposed to be competent. He's XO of the best ship the fleet. Offered multiple commands etc. And also not censured for his Generations incompetence.

What I mean is if we write all the characters off as incompetent or idiots based on that one time they performed badly/said something unscientific then we cease to be able to make sense of their actions or the universe because hey they're idiots who knows what they're doing.

I think we got another allbran shitstain or what ever his name was who thinks bashing Trek is a way to gain status, when called on it he automatically accuses anyone who isn't lockstep behind his "arguments" as being Trekkie fanatics, kind of sad really that someone needs to stack the deck that's already very heavily in the empire's favor (to a point that trek win essentially needs an act of god) even more in the empire's favor.

More butthurt whining, strawmanning, and ad hominem attacks from an undercover Trektard employing fifth-column tactics, same as Crazed Wraith, and any other foaming at the mouth Trekslamic State soldier.

The fact your screen name is the main character from KOTOR(and an incidental one in The Old Republic) doesn't make you any less of an undercover Trekkie.

But, by all means, you and your fellow jihadists should go back to farting out the big Trekkie party line about Starfleet vessels being for peaceful exploration, when even their science vessels(Nova-class)are equipped with phasers and photorps, and call that analysis.

Prove to me that Trekkies, like their fellow thiests, are all pathological liars, and that their only place is in a camp, forced to serve as slave labor to human beings.

And, Revan, think whatever you want, because close-minded Creationists(and, just how is outright ID aplogism such as TNG's "The Chase" science anyway?) like you will anyway. I despise Trek, because it is easily the most jingoistic, misogynistic, psuedo-scientific, derivative piece of shit to masquerade as science-fiction entertainment.

I need no other reason, certainly not some pathetic attempt to gain status on some Internet BBS.

But, again, think whatever you want.

Just look the date I joined(2004) and my post count(little under 100k) I've been here for years and not been an inactive lurker either, if I truly as as rapid fanatical trekkie as you suggest I would have been banned ages ago as the admins aren't afraid to ban people they think deserve it, nor is there a postcount after which you're "safe", yet here I am after all those years.

Have you ever thought that people migth enjoy Star Trek dispite the bullshit science which there's a lot of especially towards the end of VOY and early ENT though TOS, TNG and DS9 aren't free of it, hell I've not rewatched episode you pointed since I saw it back in the 1990s when it first aired here as I don't consider to be that entertaining. I've also made it very clear that I only consider TNG, DS9 and TOS series to be worth the cost of the DvDs/blu-rays.

Oh and you can still be peaceful and have weapons in case the other guy isn't as peaceful as you are which is why Starfleet ships have them or can you point out where said to evidence where said weapons were used as first response by a non-desperate crew (so the Equinox doesn't count as it was short range vessel truck decades from home) during First Contact situation or used unprovoked threat of force as a means to get their wills across.

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:More butthurt whining, strawmanning, and ad hominem attacks from an undercover Trektard employing fifth-column tactics, same as Crazed Wraith, and any other foaming at the mouth Trekslamic State soldier.

The fact your screen name is the main character from KOTOR(and an incidental one in The Old Republic) doesn't make you any less of an undercover Trekkie.

But, by all means, you and your fellow jihadists should go back to farting out the big Trekkie party line about Starfleet vessels being for peaceful exploration, when even their science vessels(Nova-class)are equipped with phasers and photorps, and call that analysis.

Prove to me that Trekkies, like their fellow thiests, are all pathological liars, and that their only place is in a camp, forced to serve as slave labor to human beings.

And, Revan, think whatever you want, because close-minded Creationists(and, just how is outright ID aplogism such as TNG's "The Chase" science anyway?) like you will anyway. I despise Trek, because it is easily the most jingoistic, misogynistic, psuedo-scientific, derivative piece of shit to masquerade as science-fiction entertainment.

I need no other reason, certainly not some pathetic attempt to gain status on some Internet BBS.

But, again, think whatever you want.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:*snip fanatical ranting*

I know what's truly ironic about this, before he went of the deep end, I had a degree of respect for him, as his comments seemed for the most part to be sensible and intelligent.

The we got this thread where he goes out of his way to bash Star Trek, I mean I posted this as a "what if" discussion in a section called "Pure Star Trek" so it should be blindingly obvious that a)I'm not trying to hide the fact I'm a fan of Star Trek b)I have no desired or intention for a versus debate about this matter. Also I'm pretty sure no one here has ever mentioned versus debates at all during this thread.

He also seems to be under the impression that to like Star Trek one must think it to be flawless, it's hardly flawless as one can write a rather large novel just listing the various faults and buthery of science the series has had over the years, though again they're hardly unique or even uniquely bad in that respect (apart from some idiot that CBS or Paramount or who ever handled the website claiming they were scientically accurate which Star Trek most definetly is not).

I got wonder if he truly dispises Star Trek so much as he claims why post on this thread at all, it doesn't affect him at all one way or the other and he could have safely ignored this, yet he insisted on posting here.

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:More butthurt whining, strawmanning, and ad hominem attacks from an undercover Trektard employing fifth-column tactics, same as Crazed Wraith, and any other foaming at the mouth Trekslamic State soldier.

The fact your screen name is the main character from KOTOR(and an incidental one in The Old Republic) doesn't make you any less of an undercover Trekkie.

But, by all means, you and your fellow jihadists should go back to farting out the big Trekkie party line about Starfleet vessels being for peaceful exploration, when even their science vessels(Nova-class)are equipped with phasers and photorps, and call that analysis.

Prove to me that Trekkies, like their fellow thiests, are all pathological liars, and that their only place is in a camp, forced to serve as slave labor to human beings.

And, Revan, think whatever you want, because close-minded Creationists(and, just how is outright ID aplogism such as TNG's "The Chase" science anyway?) like you will anyway. I despise Trek, because it is easily the most jingoistic, misogynistic, psuedo-scientific, derivative piece of shit to masquerade as science-fiction entertainment.

I need no other reason, certainly not some pathetic attempt to gain status on some Internet BBS.

But, again, think whatever you want.

I think the rest of us think that at best you are in love with how funny you think you are, and more likely, a religious bigot, because you went from calling it the "love boat D" to Trekslamic and Jihadists in fairly short order. Weren't you trying to object to style over substance?

I don't see the giant Xindi Aquatics ship mentioned here, it carried the NX 1 pretty easily, is it reasonable conjecture that it might have had a carrier role for smaller xindi ships over long distance? Also the giant sphere ship from the First Federation in "The Corbomite Maneuver" launched a smaller sphere ship before flying off, it was only a one off, but I always assumed it was a bunch of such ships stuck to a larger hull?

The First Federation ship could well have been some sort of highly sophisticated holographic illusion. At least, that's always the impression I got from the James Blish novelization, I haven't seen that particular episode...

Elheru Aran wrote:The First Federation ship could well have been some sort of highly sophisticated holographic illusion. At least, that's always the impression I got from the James Blish novelization, I haven't seen that particular episode...

It's been a while since I've seen that particular episode reruns obviously as I was born in the 1980s, but I seem to remember that "big ship" was left behind, I'll admit I could be remembering poorly here though.

Lord Revan wrote:

Elheru Aran wrote:The First Federation ship could well have been some sort of highly sophisticated holographic illusion. At least, that's always the impression I got from the James Blish novelization, I haven't seen that particular episode...

It's been a while since I've seen that particular episode reruns obviously as I was born in the 1980s, but I seem to remember that "big ship" was left behind, I'll admit I could be remembering poorly here though.

IIRC, in the novelization, Blish depicted the Fesarius as a *growing* assemblage of spheres. It started out as one large sphere-ship, and seemingly multiplied to a massive size, but once Kirk pulled the Corbomite Maneuver, most of the spheres vanished until it became just the original large craft from the initial encounter.

Of course, also IIRC, Blish was working from production notes and initial scripts rather than the actual shows as filmed... but that's all IIRC. As I noted, I haven't seen the episode. Memory Alpha doesn't say anything about it expanding, so I assume that in the episode it's just the one huge craft.

The giant inverse golf ball thing vamoosed when the Big E was to be towed to 'a planet of the First Federation which is capable of sustaining your lifeform' by the small glowy thing, stated by Spock to be '2,000 metric tons'. Given we know their penchant for illusions it's, as Elheru said, possible that bigass mothership didn't actually exist.

KIRK: What's its mass, Mister Spock?
SPOCK: Reading goes off my scale, Captain. Must be a mile in diameter.

If it's an illusion, the First Federation really knows how to bamboozle. But they were also analyzing the Enterprise's systems and shutting some off.

SPOCK: Captain, we're being invaded by exceptionally strong sensor probes everywhere. Our electrical systems, our engines.
BALOK [OC]: No further communication will be accepted. If there is the slightest hostile move, your vessel will be destroyed immediately.
SPOCK: They're shutting off some of our systems, Captain. Brilliant. Extremely sophisticated in their methods.
. . .
KIRK: Engage, warp factor one.
SULU: Warp factor. There's no response.
KIRK: Switch to impulse.
SULU: All engine systems show dead, and weapon systems.

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:I'm sorry there was substance in your post?

Hand-waving everything as incompetence isn't really analysis.

Unless you can come up with a better explanation for how he let the Enterprise get assraped by a single BoP whose gunner was so utterly useless that 2 out of every 3 shots missed completely, "incompetence" is putting it mildly.

The INS Hanit- an Israeli ship hit by a Hezbollah missile - is an example of incompetence, from the real world, where the Israelis had turned off their radar systems because the officer manning it felt there was no threat (contrary to operational orders) to the ship and did not inform the Captain.

Even then, the officers involved were only reprimanded despite the ship being crippled and a twentieth of the crew killed in the attack. The Hanit could easily have defended itself and returned fire on the missile site - neither actually happened. The Hanit was also operating in de-facto wartime (The 2006 Lebanon War) while the Enterprise was operating in peacetime in Generations.

The enemy surprising you by superior intelligence gathering ability, while you're busy defeating a terrorist from a more advanced culture, and saving billions of lives, and your response to an unforseen threat being slow is not nearly so problematic.

Even if the loss of the Enterprise is incompetence, it is directly comparable to the Hanit, deemed by the Israeli navy to be not worthy of a court martial, and had extenuating circumstances - it is in no way unrealistic - nor is the idea that the Enterprise command crew would eventually be given new command postings (the Enterprise E) given that they also saved billions of lives the same day, and they saved the entire crew and all passengers. The officers commanding the Hanit and the officer who turned off the radar were given shore postings, and not even demoted.

People on this forum have a fantasy of military competence at odds with reality.

A more serious comparable incident involving failure of a commanding officer of a greatly superior warship to use weapons and defence systems to protect it was the Iraqi attack on the USS Stark:



In this one, dozens of crewmen were killed by the attack, and the Captain was forced to resign, after receiving a letter of reprimand. He was not court martialled nor demoted, retiring at the rank of Captain. In this one the missile was more advanced, but the inquiry stated the plane could have been engaged and destroyed.

This shit happens; it may well be that the 1987 USS Stark incident was part of the inspiration in fact.

It's also worth noting that Riker did actually kill all the attackers, unlike these examples where real world naval commanders were not court martialled for similar instances where their attackers got away with it. Everyone from Riker's ship survived, and everyone on Lursa and B'etor's ship was killed.

Zero casualties on the federation side, total casualties for the House of Duras.

Victory counts for a lot.

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:More butthurt whining, strawmanning, and ad hominem attacks from an undercover Trektard employing fifth-column tactics, same as Crazed Wraith, and any other foaming at the mouth Trekslamic State soldier.

The fact your screen name is the main character from KOTOR(and an incidental one in The Old Republic) doesn't make you any less of an undercover Trekkie.

But, by all means, you and your fellow jihadists should go back to farting out the big Trekkie party line about Starfleet vessels being for peaceful exploration, when even their science vessels(Nova-class)are equipped with phasers and photorps, and call that analysis.

Prove to me that Trekkies, like their fellow thiests, are all pathological liars, and that their only place is in a camp, forced to serve as slave labor to human beings.

And, Revan, think whatever you want, because close-minded Creationists(and, just how is outright ID aplogism such as TNG's "The Chase" science anyway?) like you will anyway. I despise Trek, because it is easily the most jingoistic, misogynistic, psuedo-scientific, derivative piece of shit to masquerade as science-fiction entertainment.

I need no other reason, certainly not some pathetic attempt to gain status on some Internet BBS.

But, again, think whatever you want.

And now, in my capacity as a moderator. Shut the fuck up.

The tone of the main site is tongue-in-cheek, and intentionally propagandist, giving it a humorous manner in reading. That in no way means that the board is somehow supposed to be a fucking echo chamber.

If you say that posters on this board are "subhuman", or should be enslaved again, I will consider it a personal threat against fellow users.

You have been warned.

Oh, and just to make sure you get the point that this forum isn't to bash Trek, here's the always-excellent Tomalak, warning Picard.

Themightytom wrote:I don't see the giant Xindi Aquatics ship mentioned here, it carried the NX 1 pretty easily, is it reasonable conjecture that it might have had a carrier role for smaller xindi ships over long distance? Also the giant sphere ship from the First Federation in "The Corbomite Maneuver" launched a smaller sphere ship before flying off, it was only a one off, but I always assumed it was a bunch of such ships stuck to a larger hull?

on the Xindi Aquatic Warship (Narcine-class in STO) it was never explicitly depicted as a carrier in canon Trek though the hangar/cargo hold was certainly big enough for it (seeing as it could fit the NX-class with room to spare), in ENT it was more of big ass warship that transport the NX-class but don't remember it ever using parasite craft as main or intentional secondary source of damage to the enemy, granted the only time we saw one in battle the sphere builders quickly took care of it.

What reasons would the Xindi have for building such big hangars on their warships, if not with at least the possibility of using them for parasite warships?