Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

[Crazedwraith]

Unrelated note: Discovery Season 5 will be the last and is due out in early 2024. Kind of sad about that and had no idea it was so far from release.

Now Picard spoilers:

Worf and Raffi are quickly become my favourites. Worf playing Good cop to Raffi's bad cop was especially interesting. Still slightly mysterious who he's working with/for if anyone. His introduction segueing into the offer of camomile tea was just hilarious.

I don't really like plotline with Picard and The Crushers in concept but they're doing it well enough if we have to have it. I like both the Crushers' stint helping out in sickbay and being very personable with their patients.

I'm annoyed but expected Riker to be replacement Captain rather than Seven but I hope she ends up in the big chair by the end. Shaw continues to improve his original dickish impression to be a decent-ish Captain. Relieving his star bridge crew for a rest and pointing out to Jack the key issue was hope they were being tracked.

The final revelation that it's a splinter factor of the Dominion is extremely interesting and surprising to follow up so explicitly on Deep Space 9 in a TNG focused season. Very interested in where this was going.

Very rough episode for Picard and Riker and I'm surprised the series went in for giving them such an obvious split.

All in all a good episode that kept us moving. Looking forward to next week now.

[Alferd Packer]

Worf just makes everything better. I was NOT invested in Raffi's story AT ALL until Worf showed up, and now I'm all about it.

[Crazedwraith]

Worf just makes everything better. I was NOT invested in Raffi's story AT ALL until Worf showed up, and now I'm all about it.

Yes, definitely.

It helps that this was also the episode that specifically connected her plot to the main plot. With portal weapons and Changelings appearing in both.

[bilateralrope]

If they are a splinter group of the Dominion, with access to firepower like the Shrike, it's clear they could have grabbed Jack or Beverly at any time. Instead, they kept harassing them until Picard showed up. So I'm still waiting to learn what all that's about. If their plans have anything to do with this nebula, I'm going to have questions about how they knew Beverly and Jack would flee there.

Hopefully the nebula proves to be something those changelings were not expecting.

Also, what happened with the threat that appeared briefly at the end of the previous season ?

[Crazedwraith]

If they are a splinter group of the Dominion, with access to firepower like the Shrike, it's clear they could have grabbed Jack or Beverly at any time. Instead, they kept harassing them until Picard showed up. So I'm still waiting to learn what all that's about. If their plans have anything to do with this nebula, I'm going to have questions about how they knew Beverly and Jack would flee there.

Hopefully the nebula proves to be something those changelings were not expecting.

Also, what happened with the threat that appeared briefly at the end of the previous season ?

If you mean Dominion transporters DS9 itself forgot about them most of the time. Only when they needed to get Kira to Empok Nor or something.

I'm curious what's up with the Nebula as well, the last episode said it something more than tbe started star trek mutura nebula knock off.

No idea about last season's threat, it's not stuck with me. It bears repeating the almost complete disconnection from last season is weird.

[bilateralrope]

If you mean Dominion transporters DS9 itself forgot about them most of the time. Only when they needed to get Kira to Empok Nor or something.

I had forgotten about those. I'll assume that these rogue changelings didn't manage to grab that tech when they split off unless we see otherwise.

I'm talking only about the firepower shown by the Shrike. That tractor beam should be quite effective at preventing them from running away while someone else boards them with enough people to overwhelm them.

[bilateralrope]

I just thought of one possible theory of what the rogue changelings are up to. If the rogue changelings lack the infrastructure to support as many Jem'hadar as they want*, androids would be another way to build an army with that level of loyalty. Research into AI is what the Daystrom institute is known for.

Since Picard is in a synthetic body, messing with him might help them see how positronic brains behave in stressful situations.


*For example, if they have limited access to one of the ingredients of Ketracel White.

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

3x04
The solution to the crisis was kind of meh-ish but the feeling of the crew working together on it was great.
Not sure with the whole Vadic hand scene. If the hand was with her did she really need to "report" on the status? The changeling hibernates/limits its own senses while in hand form?

So far there has been no further mentioning of the transwarp conduit of season 2. Considering that Season 2 and 3 were kind of filmed back to back perhaps the plot would be resolved this season?

[Solauren]

I just thought of one possible theory of what the rogue changelings are up to. If the rogue changelings lack the infrastructure to support as many Jem'hadar as they want*, androids would be another way to build an army with that level of loyalty. Research into AI is what the Daystrom institute is known for.

Since Picard is in a synthetic body, messing with him might help them see how positronic brains behave in stressful situations.

*For example, if they have limited access to one of the ingredients of Ketracel White.

Or, the Changelings want to go the Cylon route - android is defeated, uploads into a new body. Death becomes a learning experience.

Also, we have several instances in DS9 of Jem'ha'dar going rogue. That could be a concern.

Its also possible that they want to use Androids instead of Jem'ha'dar becauses the Dominion wants plausible deniablity.
Or they don't their soliders infiltrated by Dominion loyal soldiers

Or the Changelings found out what happened with those extra-galactic machine intelligences in Season 1, and want a way to contact them safely.

Lots of possible reasons.

[Crazedwraith]

I don't know how I feel about episode 4. The Picard/Riker split was resolved very easily.

They certainly love the new Ten Forward set don't they? Flashbacks and a holodeck recreation. They explained using it in a limited power situation slightly better than Voyager but only slightly. And the Flashbacks should be firmly pre-S1 when Picard was firmly anti-starfleet and unlikely to be at 10 Forward. (Unless there's long between seasons than I think)

They show a Vulcan man touching shoulders and I think hugging people later which is interesting as they are not really so touchy feelings. Just the extreme situation I guess.

No B-Plot which means no Worf. (Boo) and Seven and the changling plot seem oddly disconnected from the rest. Is it dead? I thought they gooped when dead if not phasered.

Nice actually Star Trekky plot with the solution about the nebula and Riker's thoughts afterwards.

And what's Jack's deal? I'm speculating borg related, since Shaw said there was still the real collective out their as well as Jurati's reformed lot. Assuming he's supposed to be on the level there.

[bilateralrope]

3x04
The solution to the crisis was kind of meh-ish but the feeling of the crew working together on it was great.
Not sure with the whole Vadic hand scene. If the hand was with her did she really need to "report" on the status? The changeling hibernates/limits its own senses while in hand form?

I'm guessing the table she chopped her hand onto was part of it. Some communication system that only changelings can use.

[Col. Crackpot]

3x04
The solution to the crisis was kind of meh-ish but the feeling of the crew working together on it was great.
Not sure with the whole Vadic hand scene. If the hand was with her did she really need to "report" on the status? The changeling hibernates/limits its own senses while in hand form?

So far there has been no further mentioning of the transwarp conduit of season 2. Considering that Season 2 and 3 were kind of filmed back to back perhaps the plot would be resolved this season?

I enjoyed the 'time to boldly get the hell out of here' bit. And the asteroid toss was fun. But i do feel like that episode wrapped up a little to cleanly.

[Crazedwraith]

I enjoyed the 'time to boldly get the hell out of here' bit. And the asteroid toss was fun. But i do feel like that episode wrapped up a little to cleanly.

On the other hand they've spent 4/10 episodes just on the initial skirmish of whatever's going on. They really couldn't drag this out much longer.

[Lost Soal]

3x04
The solution to the crisis was kind of meh-ish but the feeling of the crew working together on it was great.
Not sure with the whole Vadic hand scene. If the hand was with her did she really need to "report" on the status? The changeling hibernates/limits its own senses while in hand form?

So far there has been no further mentioning of the transwarp conduit of season 2. Considering that Season 2 and 3 were kind of filmed back to back perhaps the plot would be resolved this season?

Vadic IS a changeling and is reporting to another party. The real question in my mind is when they say her people are expendable, were they referring just to her crew or the changelings as a whole.

[bilateralrope]

Vadic IS a changeling and is reporting to another party. The real question in my mind is when they say her people are expendable, were they referring just to her crew or the changelings as a whole.

Any changeling being expendable is a big difference to how the Dominion behaved. So either whatever is happening with Jack is a very big deal and/or these changelings have gone mad somehow.

Looking at things like the changeling on the Titan using an exact copy of Odo's bucket hidden that badly, the one Worf interrogated or that communication device and I'm leaning towards madness.

[bilateralrope]

Starfleet is thoroughly infiltrated and can't be trusted. Again.

Picard is left to solve this problem with a weak ship and minimal crew. Again.

The fate of the Federation is on the line. Again.


One of the reasons I rate Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks above the other modern Trek series is because their episodic nature means they don't have to tie every single episode into some big, Federation ending, problem that must be solved. They can, and do, explore stories with lower stakes. Giving the writers more freedom in the stories they can tell.


Also, I notice that nobody performed the full DS9 blood test to detect changelings. The blood had to be separated from the rest of the changeling before it reverted into goo. It had to at least drip for the test to be useful. Blood on a persons skin proves nothing.

[Crazedwraith]

Also, I notice that nobody performed the full DS9 blood test to detect changelings. The blood had to be separated from the rest of the changeling before it reverted into goo. It had to at least drip for the test to be useful. Blood on a persons skin proves nothing.

Well no but Bev did it dissect a changeling to the point that it's organs and subject to testing before it re-gooed (impressed that the clue of being left with a corpse was a clue tbh) so it's not hard to believe the shake the vial test would work. (Also even on Ds9 Changeling-Martok was evading blood tests)

---

i liked (but had spoiled myself on) seeing Ro again. It was good but if it felt like a hell of lot more than could be put into one episodes guest spot. A flaw of only going full TNG reunion in only the last season.

Maybe my late TNG is a little fuzzy but.. I don't recalled Picard and Ro being That close? She had a thing with Riker more than anyone iirc.

Obvious she was going to really die if they already did a fake out with Worf in the same episode though.

[Solauren]

Maybe my late TNG is a little fuzzy but.. I don't recalled Picard and Ro being That close? She had a thing with Riker more than anyone iirc.

They were never romantic on screen, but they were comfortable with each other to publicaly make out as part of her cover during her infiltration of the Marqi. I think they also professionally respected each other a great deal.

[bilateralrope]

Also, I notice that nobody performed the full DS9 blood test to detect changelings. The blood had to be separated from the rest of the changeling before it reverted into goo. It had to at least drip for the test to be useful. Blood on a persons skin proves nothing.

Well no but Bev did it dissect a changeling to the point that it's organs and subject to testing before it re-gooed (impressed that the clue of being left with a corpse was a clue tbh) so it's not hard to believe the shake the vial test would work. (Also even on Ds9 Changeling-Martok was evading blood tests)

Sure, everything else said that the blood test wouldn't work. It's just strange that nobody did it, as it doesn't seem that expensive a shot to pull off compared to having blood on a characters skin.

[Alferd Packer]

I am enjoying this season of Picard quite a bit, and I find myself saying, "This is what the first season of Picard should have been." Just get the gang back together. Raffi and Seven are welcome additions, it's true, but I am absolutely not missing any of the other characters we met in the first two seasons.

Oh well, better late than never. Hopefully, this leads to another TNG spinoff--maybe that Worf show that was talked about some years back?

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I am enjoying this season of Picard quite a bit, and I find myself saying, "This is what the first season of Picard should have been." Just get the gang back together. Raffi and Seven are welcome additions, it's true, but I am absolutely not missing any of the other characters we met in the first two seasons.

Oh well, better late than never. Hopefully, this leads to another TNG spinoff--maybe that Worf show that was talked about some years back?

With the additions of Geordi LaForge, Data(!) and then Deanna Troi right at the end, the gang is back together!

They even lampshaded the fact that he'd died twice before. Brent Spiner certainly did a great job switching between characters and being instantly recognisable in each one (Data/Lore/B4/Soong), not the first time he's had to do that (Masks).

Earlier they mentioned little details to cement continuity like how many ships were lost and personnel killed at Wolf 359, and then lately how Section 31 infected the Great Link with the Morphogenic Virus by using Odo as a trojan horse (though they left that part out), and the Moriarty hologram. One of the goodies that Riker spotted looked to me like the Phase Cloak from The Pegasus.

Interesting graphic that came up in the Daystrom facility labelled as James T. Kirk next to a skeleton. Loved the fleet museum that had goodies like the Enterprise-A, the Defiant, Voyager, and the Bounty. Also present though unexplained was a Klingon D7 and below a Saber-class ship. I really hope this means we'll get to see the Enterprise F soon

Not sure how much use the 23rd century cloak is going to be seeing as how Voyager was able to defeat the one mounted on a D7 from that era with a metaphasic sweep in Prophecy

With regard to defeating the founders, perhaps they should have Garak put in an appearance. He's the only surviving character who has knowledge of the quantum stasis field, I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to modify the design to encompass an entire ship placed under quarantine so nobody can try to leave without revealing themselves

[EnterpriseSovereign]

GHETTO EDIT: Some eagle-eyed viewers actually spotted the Enterprise-F in among Ro Laren's files, detailed here, apparently due for early decommissioning and it looks like they went with the design from STO. Also spotted was another version of Voyager, though no further information is available.

[Crazedwraith]

I feel the tack taken in the first couple of series was correct and admirable but not exactly the best implemented. Apparently it was something Patrick Stewart wanted that it should be a new show able to stand on it's own merits. If we're not missing the new cast it's because they didn't do enough with them when they had them.

This series is getting a lot of mileage out the feels of returning cast but given the size of the TNG cast and the 10 episode length and Picard very definitely being the main character some of them (Troi, Geordi) are getting short changed.

The central plot of Jack and Picard is just something I'm not particularly able to care about tbh.

Episode 6 is another one I have very little thoughts about. Yes, it's nice to see Geordi and Data back, get reunions of all the cast. Despite Seven being continually underused her scene with Jack checking out the museum's ships is touching. Disappointed she's actually split with Raffi.

Plot wise. I can't figure out what the changlings want with Picard's corpse. (Or why His and Kirk's corpses are stored in Daystrom anyway) and dislike that Deanna is now in the position of damsel in distress. Despite only being ten episodes long it seems to be inching along in the midgame.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I don't know, their relationship was ill-conceived to begin with and was at odds with Seven's character in Voyager.

Yep, I can't get behind Jack Crusher's story either, and really a simple DNA scan would have revealed what we already knew, that he would be Picard's son.

And how Picard's corpse is of any use to the Dominion remains to be seen, unless they use their cloning tech to create their own version.

[Formless]

One of the goodies that Riker spotted looked to me like the Phase Cloak from The Pegasus.

No, actually the graphic labels it the "Genesis II device". The Phase Cloak was presumably handed over to the Romulans (or destroyed) as per the terms of the treaty and Section 31 never got it back, but a second Genesis device is exactly the kind of thing they would develop on their own without anyone noticing, much like the genetically modified tribble. Its only illegal if you get caught, and Admiral Pressman got caught with the only prototype in Picard's custody.

It is interesting to speculate what they were doing with Kirk and Picard's remains, however. Exhuming Kirk makes some sense from a Prime Directive standpoint, but why not hand it over to his family? There must be some reason to keep it around, especially at a Starfleet Intelligence/Section 31 facility. Maybe they were studying the effects of the Nexus? Maybe they wanted to see if they could clone him and bring him back to life like Shax? Granted we don't actually know how Shax was resurrected, but its plausible that's what they wanted to do. Picard's remains however are obviously important because they have been brought into the plot. Maybe Kirk's remains are there just to foreshadow that the facility entombs certain famous starfleet officers, so we're not totally caught off guard they had Picard's body on hand for the Changlings to steal.

I suspect the answer is related to why they are after his son. Somehow Jack can tell when he's looking at a Changeling, even when he's not consciously aware that he is. And there seems to be more to his hallucinations than can be explained by his genetic disorder.

And this is without getting into the accidental spoilers that were revealed by the show's captions.

So if you don't want to know what that spoiler is, don't read the following. I'm not using spoiler tags simply because they are broken, BTW.

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The voice of Jack's hallucinations is apparently the Borg Queen. Picard could somehow still hear the Collective back in First Contact despite having all his implants apparently removed, so it is not unprecedented for Jack to be hearing the actual Queen now despite lacking any implants too. Humans have psionic potential in Star Trek, but robo-Picard would presumably have lost that potential. The Borg have been a looming threat in this series from season 1, but they've been a background element. Season 2's Borg are apparently a splinter group created by time travel, and were not actually the villains. But Shaw may be right: the REAL Borg are still out there. Maybe the Changlings want to exploit that old connection, turning Jack into the new Locutus of Borg and draw the OG Borg Collective back to the Alpha Quadrant to finish what they started. These Changlings lack a Jem'Hadar army to wage war with, but they might just be crazy enough to think they can boss around the Borg Collective. The Changelings were always known for being arrogant enough to label themselves gods, after all. And perhaps they think their gooey bodies are immune to assimilation. The Borg may be solids, but they represent the kind of perfect order the Founders could respect.