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RogueIce wrote:Coyote
For ease of reference, I think you should compile this into your OP in the Prolouge thread, and then move your faction information down to this post you made in the thread. That way it'll be there for everybody to see...

Yeah, that was why I started trying to compile everything into one post. Eventually, my plan was to make this more prominent and easy to find. I was just going to stick it in the OOB post for the Concordat, but I like your idea of playing musical chairs with the posts moreso.

This is the index for the map I use. The grid system is quite useful. http://www.xs4all.nl/~wrvh/galaxymap/galaxymap_p3.jpg

Also, hello Coyote.

Czechmate wrote:Insofar as I've mixed Imperial and Republican and my own approximately equivalent designs into my OOB, I've tried to stick to a 'triangle ship' rule; that is to say, most of my ships are some form of Star Destroyer or derivative thereof. I have, for example, Nebulas. Those conform to the triangle-ship rule, and are in fact the only Republican naval design I have picked from the grab-bag.

I thought the rules forbid custom designs, so, as far as I know, No.

I was under the impression that was up in the air. I'll wait on Coyote's decision on the matter.

For the record, the Taris is as follows, and actually somewhat -downgraded- from its' SW:ROE incarnation.

L: 1150m
W: 250m

Crew: 11,500
Troops: 2500

Armament:
-3x Triple Heavy Turbolaser Turrets
-39x Dual Turbolaser Turrets
-26x Ion Cannon Turrets
-39x Quadlaser Turrets
-6x Capital Concussion Missile Launchers

Fighters: 4sqns. Enhanced Sith Starfighters

EDIT: forgot fighters

Karmic Knight wrote:I thought the rules forbid custom designs, so, as far as I know, No.

Nebulas exist. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nebula-c ... _Destroyer It's probably a bit out of the time period but I suppose we could make some allowances there (it started design shortly after Endor, even if it didn't enter service until around 10 years later).

Haven't gone over his OOB in detail but that one, at least, would probably be ok.

At any rate, I have no idea what an Imperial III Star Destroyer is, or for that matter a bunch of the Imperial ships. They're not on Wookieepedia, anyway.

RogueIce wrote:

Karmic Knight wrote:I thought the rules forbid custom designs, so, as far as I know, No.

Nebulas exist. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nebula-c ... _Destroyer It's probably a bit out of the time period but I suppose we could make some allowances there (it started design shortly after Endor, even if it didn't enter service until around 10 years later).

Haven't gone over his OOB in detail but that one, at least, would probably be ok.

At any rate, I have no idea what an Imperial III Star Destroyer is, or for that matter a bunch of the Imperial ships. They're not on Wookieepedia, anyway.

A lot of player-designed variants from SW:ROE are still in the list and need to be removed. It's why I figure I should be allowed to keep track of it, because I know what's stock and what's not and, as far as I know, I'm the only one here other than Coyote who played the game which birthed this one.

EDIT: current time period is ~12 ABY, Nebulas started entering service in ~15 ABY. not sufficiently far ahead to be an issue, IMO.

EDIT2: as I continue work on the map, I'm starting to notice you guys have apparently picked your systems from wookieepedia without regard to their location on -any- map, because apart from coyote all of you have systems dotted across the galaxy like so many bits of peppercorn on a steak.

EDIT3: I take that back. not all of you did that. most of Langley's stuff is in one contiguous region of space. mr bean as well. the corellians, the shadows, the neimie-skako alliance...all pretty decent. then we have thanas, dotted all over again...

Yah we decided not to worry about being homogenous. That was actually one of the first things that we decided upon. That and we could make worlds up a bit.

That's silly, but whatever. You'll homogenize as time passes. It's the natural result of warfare.

EDIT: now that I think about it, we had a rule in SW:ROE. you cannot claim points from a planet that you made up. if it's not on wookiepedia or something you can find after a cursory google search, it's not valid for points. you can use it for story purposes, but not as a source of points to increase your fleet.

Czechmate wrote:EDIT3: I take that back. not all of you did that. most of Langley's stuff is in one contiguous region of space. mr bean as well. the corellians, the shadows, the neimie-skako alliance...all pretty decent. then we have thanas, dotted all over again...

According to this map (I can't find them on yours or the Essential Chronology one) Froz and Nubia near Corellia, and are at least on the Corellian Run. And also according to Wookieepedia, they're in the Corellian Sector (as Outlier Worlds) so I figure that's close enough.

Czechmate wrote:EDIT: now that I think about it, we had a rule in SW:ROE. you cannot claim points from a planet that you made up. if it's not on wookiepedia or something you can find after a cursory google search, it's not valid for points. you can use it for story purposes, but not as a source of points to increase your fleet.

Pretty sure we'll let it go. So long as nobody pulls Homeworlds or a bunch of Major worlds out of their asses I don't think it's a big deal. It's a big galaxy, after all.

I'll probably get into my general Modding Philosophy later, if you're all interested. However, one thing to note: expansion. If you want to attack, say, a Major world and try to conquer it, you're welcome to try. You should expect to meet around 400 points of defenses, though.

It's actually one of those thoughts I had, given the rather crappy nature of NPCs in SDN World. If your aim is to take over worlds, the more valuable they are, the harder it would be. As they would have their defenses, forcing you to fight for it. And then you have to invade, probably fucking up infrastructure and the like, so you're not going to get the full points out of them instantly. And then of course the population probably isn't going to like you much, leaving you with partisans, rebel groups, sabotage, and other fun things to prevent your total consolidation of your newly captured liberated planet.

So long as you RP it that way and don't try to cheat the system, fine. On the other hand, if you're going to try some nonsense and say your assaulted NPC Major world is now giving you its full points/industry/economy after only three months or so, you should expect a Mod-initiated massive act of sabotage or widescale uprising in your near future.

For the last time Agent Sorchus! It's "KUAT" not "KAUT"! Makes me feel like a Tau.

Fixed that Fin, I'll try and not mess it up again.
I have a spread sheet that I am trying to have finished soon. However it is mostly setup for Independent stuff at the moment and it will take a while to clean up. I do not have an easy way to post it though and I am open to suggestions on how to do that.

Are troops and Jedi subjected to upkeep costs?

Jedi, any additional troops are subject, yes.

Also:
- a number of you forgot to calulate defence into your maintenance bill. Remember, additional defence institutions above the standard package cost you 1/4 to maintain.

Thanas wrote:Jedi, any additional troops are subject, yes.

Also:
- a number of you forgot to calulate defence into your maintenance bill. Remember, additional defence institutions above the standard package cost you 1/4 to maintain.

Where's the rule set for that?

Also, does that apply to stations and so forth? If so, then our maintenance bills will be a lot higher, unless we exclude shipyards.

Thanas, you can continue from there.

I'm kinda in a hurry, but I'll add my opinion on some things later.

I put in a cost system for Jedi & Sith, but didn't think of a 'upkeep' section as well. (I was also wondering how much time we need to have before a Padawan becomes a Knight, etc, but didn't have time to explore it fully).

Upkeep for yards is necessary, too, I think...

Troops (and fighters) are paid for in upkeep if they are part of a ship, station, or world's basic load. The only time you have to pay for upkeep on them is if they are 'above and beyond' (ie, extra forces) you've purchased.

I'll post that today for discussion.

Hey, Czechmate.

Yeah, this game is inspired by the one from SB.com up to a point. The basic premise for the setting (Clone Emperor from Byss attacks Coruscant, Gotterdammerung ensues) but after that it has already differed widely. Economics factors a lot in this one, and Thanas has come up with some awesome ideas for regulating them. Now, a faction can grow significantly (including upgrading planets) completely through economic means, making trade and diplomacy truly meaningful.

A few other things are different. We can build worlds from scratch so long as they are not Homeworlds or somehow 'wankish' (ie, Mod approval). Hopefully, this will prevent problems we had at SB.com with "insane map blob growth" seeking only the named worlds on the map.

We actually have to pay attention to, and pay upkeep for, armies and fighters beyond our basic initial issue.

It costs points to purchase & upkeep Force users.

As for custom designs, we're starting out with no custom designs yet. It is too soon (and the Galaxy has been too chaotic in the 2 years since the collapse of general authority) for people to have been able to secure the resources for any custom ship builds. A system for researching and then building new prototypes has been made.

I'm in the phase of compiling all these into one post and having all the rules ready for easy viewing.

Coyote wrote:I put in a cost system for Jedi & Sith, but didn't think of a 'upkeep' section as well. (I was also wondering how much time we need to have before a Padawan becomes a Knight, etc, but didn't have time to explore it fully).

Upkeep for yards is necessary, too, I think...

Troops (and fighters) are paid for in upkeep if they are part of a ship, station, or world's basic load. The only time you have to pay for upkeep on them is if they are 'above and beyond' (ie, extra forces) you've purchased.

I'll post that today for discussion.

So... basically practically everyone starts off with a high upkeep of 666 points there abouts. OK.

Only if you don't have shipyards. If you do, then you have a lower upkeep. Also, research stations don't have upkeep.

Beowulf wrote:Only if you don't have shipyards. If you do, then you have a lower upkeep. Also, research stations don't have upkeep.

Well, if we want to be asinine about it, even research stations need to have fuel to burn in the reactor. That goes for defence platforms, shipyards etc.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:

Thanas wrote:Jedi, any additional troops are subject, yes.

Also:
- a number of you forgot to calulate defence into your maintenance bill. Remember, additional defence institutions above the standard package cost you 1/4 to maintain.

Where's the rule set for that?

Also, does that apply to stations and so forth? If so, then our maintenance bills will be a lot higher, unless we exclude shipyards.

From the economic rules:

Infrastructure
- infrastructure costs points to construct, but not to maintain.
- Planetary defences that are not part of the standard defence package cost 1/6th to maintain.

Thus, anything that improves your defences will cost you upkeep.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:So... basically practically everyone starts off with a high upkeep of 666 points there abouts. OK.

Only if you have maxed out your points for constructing military things.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:

Beowulf wrote:Only if you don't have shipyards. If you do, then you have a lower upkeep. Also, research stations don't have upkeep.

Well, if we want to be asinine about it, even research stations need to have fuel to burn in the reactor. That goes for defence platforms, shipyards etc.

Here is my word on this, to explain the rules and my reasoning for it:

- planetary defences cost upkeep. Reason: To prevent someone from creating insane defences and to reflect their military value.
- Stations that do not add to your defence (shipyards, research stations etc) are not included in that. Why? Because building ships and reasearch costs points. Furthermore, I want to have players pay for fleets and military means, but not infrastructure in order to encourage cooperate gaming.

An example: Spoiler

RogueIce wrote: It's actually one of those thoughts I had, given the rather crappy nature of NPCs in SDN World. If your aim is to take over worlds, the more valuable they are, the harder it would be. As they would have their defenses, forcing you to fight for it. And then you have to invade, probably fucking up infrastructure and the like, so you're not going to get the full points out of them instantly. And then of course the population probably isn't going to like you much, leaving you with partisans, rebel groups, sabotage, and other fun things to prevent your total consolidation of your newly captured liberated planet.

Planetary reconstruction is actually very painful to your economy. I think it would only be fair to saddle anyone who tries to invade an NPC world with full reconstruction costs. But in the end, it would come down to the mods.



Czechmate

Czechmate, I reviewed your OOB and I cannot in good conscience approve of it. It reeks of you trying to sneak in things.

First of all, there is no way Er'Kit, a desert planet on which slavers regularly operate, is approaching homeworld level. You might switch that status with Taris, although calling Taris a homeworld is likewise stretching it.

Second - your OOB has an overdrawn columm in it. Please notice that you are not allowed to spend more than your allotted points, as these points represent not just money, but your industrial capacity as a whole.

Your OOB also has an Overlord. This ship is not allowed at the start of the game as you must control at least five major worlds to built it. The highest you can go for are the Allegiance class destroyers.

Also, you violate the rules by buying a 1200m shipyard that is not allowed at the start of the game.

Finally, your fleet distribution - we all know what is going to happen here, namely that you do not buy any corvettes now and then construct loads of them. No way that is going to fly. Every other player has taken pains to diversify their fleet to a reasonable level, please do so. It is quite frankly laughable that your navy has no corvettes.

You have not bought a single resupply base. This means that your ships cannot resupply anywhere, which also means that by now they all should be dead of hunger and the ships should be running out of fuel anytime.

I'll also veto your custom design of the Taris. Custom designs are not allowed at the start of the game.

Please adjust your OOB accordingly.

Thanks Thanas for clarification.

I think we need to put them in a prominent post so that people don't have to go flip around like mad for them.

^I'll PM Coyote a concentrated version of it.

Thanas wrote:

RogueIce wrote: It's actually one of those thoughts I had, given the rather crappy nature of NPCs in SDN World. If your aim is to take over worlds, the more valuable they are, the harder it would be. As they would have their defenses, forcing you to fight for it. And then you have to invade, probably fucking up infrastructure and the like, so you're not going to get the full points out of them instantly. And then of course the population probably isn't going to like you much, leaving you with partisans, rebel groups, sabotage, and other fun things to prevent your total consolidation of your newly captured liberated planet.

Planetary reconstruction is actually very painful to your economy. I think it would only be fair to saddle anyone who tries to invade an NPC world with full reconstruction costs. But in the end, it would come down to the mods.

Definately. Partisans and such are something you can RP, and keeping a reasonable number of garrison troops should be understood.* But I wouldn't make a rule of it, per se. But it's an option to use if people try to reconstruct too fast or whatnot: rather than just saying "your post is invalid" (though that's an option) we may use said partisans to screw up some stuff for you. Punishment for powergamers, though I will submit I'd only do it for especially bad, unrepentant, or repeat offenders (we all fuck up, and I'm perfectly willing to let somebody retcon/edit to fix a mistake or misunderstanding).

*You're not going to occupy a Major world with a company of stormtroopers, after all. Well, you can, but it won't work very well. Going with a sort of middle of the road tech thing, I probably won't say "Thou shalt have 30 billion soldiers" or anything like that. But keep a pretty decent number, or something. An "Army" or two or whathave you.

Unless it's some dinky little barren rock moon of a colony. Then a company of troops can probably handle it.

RogueIce wrote:Definately. Partisans and such are something you can RP, and keeping a reasonable number of garrison troops should be understood. But I wouldn't make a rule of it, per se. But it's an option to use if people try to reconstruct too fast or whatnot: rather than just saying "your post is invalid" (though that's an option) we may use said partisans to screw up some stuff for you. Punishment for powergamers, though I will submit I'd only do it for especially bad, unrepentant, or repeat offenders (we all fuck up, and I'm perfectly willing to let somebody retcon/edit to fix a mistake or misunderstanding).

Of course. We are in full agreement about that.

I'll also be a bit lax when it comes to counting the beans - we all make mistakes and this is not acountant wars after all. Just as long as nobody does any funny business (like suddenly pulling out an extra 400 points), I'll go along with it.


Also: As we are sticking to canon ships, everyone of us should eliminate stuff like ISDIII etc.