Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

[The Romulan Republic]

Having the Empire be good guys would be even worse. I know there's an Imperial apologist faction among fans, but it would be like making a movie about heroic Nazis. The Empire is evil. At most they can have redeemed Imperial defectors.

Besides, based on my experiences on this forum at least some of the Imperial apologist stuff is because the EU made the New Republic ineffective, and I hope they don't go that route again.

[Adam Reynolds]

Having the Empire be good guys would be even worse. I know there's an Imperial apologist faction among fans, but it would be like making a movie about heroic Nazis. The Empire is evil. At most they can have redeemed Imperial defectors.

I was more thinking an Empire in the style of Thrawn's, one that was ruthlessly pragmatic rather that outright evil in contrast to the more idealistic New Republic, not that they would be good outright. Though the Imperial defectors element does seem the idea with John Boyega's character. An Imperial character equivalent to Marshal Rommel was what I was thinking, an effective officer who actually opposed to Palpatine but was loyal to the Imperial military.

Besides, based on my experiences on this forum at least some of the Imperial apologist stuff is because the EU made the New Republic ineffective, and I hope they don't go that route again.

That certainly was the main argument it seems, that totalitarianism is better than instability. The same argument is often made with Iraq as a result of the American "liberation" in 2003. In one of the best cases of irony to come out of such things, one such argument was even made by Dick Cheney in 1994, after he was SecDef under Bush senior. Another point frequently made was that many of those who were criticizing the Empire were Americans, who had no problem with America's use of strategic bombing and even nuclear weapons in WW2. It is all but impossible to justify Hiroshima while condemning Alderaan at the same time.

Without the Yuuzhan Vong, one of the largest arguments is gone, that the oncoming invasion would have been better destroyed by the Empire rather than the scattered and fragmented galaxy barely held together by the New Republic. Some even argued that Palpatine had planned for this. It was all but explicitly the case with Thrawn, that he attacked the New Republic to get it ready even if he failed. However there is still the second problem, that the lack of a clear successor to Palpatine would lead to unrelenting Imperial civil war, analogous to the problems faced by the Diadochi after the death of Alexander the Great. If we still see the Imperial civil war, that argument would still be valid. But if we see either a New Republic that is rather stable and in control, or a stable and more benevolent Empire that is gradually being replaced by the New Republic, it would be hard to argue that the heroes of the OT did anything but good.

The fact that the Empire is alive enough to have stormtroopers and TIE fighters does seem to indicate that they are at least still a force in the galaxy, which does limit the effectiveness of the New Republic at least somewhat. Though it is always possible that despite seeing the symbols of Imperial power, the New Republic is actually stronger. This is backed up by the fact that we clearly see new X-wings models but apparently not new TIE fighter models, though we do also see new stormtrooper armor. That would actually be an interesting state, with the New Republic having superiority but also unable to really capitalize on it due to the instability in the galaxy postwar. And without the benevolent secret police functions of the Jedi or the military might of the Empire at its height, it would be quite difficult for them to really keep things under control. Though it would be nice if they were competent and merely overwhelmed, rather than completely incompetent.

Given the fact that the political elements of the prequels were usually considered something of a weakness by most(even though I personally thought they were one of the few things done well), most of this would be backdrop at the most, with the main action based on the individual characters and their personal struggles. This alone would decrease one of the main issues of the post-ROTJ EU, that of petty politics rather than actually doing what is right.

[The Romulan Republic]

While I don't want Episode VII to rehash EU stuff too much, a Thrawn-like villain would have some appeal because it would be something the films haven't done before (a competent non-Sith major villain) and because Thrawn was a very impressive character.

But I don't think anyone can reform the Empire. It is a vile, genocidal dictatorship and whatever good it may have done is tainted by the vileness of its creator and the methods he used to create it.

I could see a group of reformed Imperial followers trying to maintain order and rebuild, but for the resulting regime to be anything worthwhile, it would have to be so different from the original Empire that it would effectively be a completely different state.

And I like the political stuff in the Prequels, partly because it shows how dangerous Palpatine was. He won partly by playing the political systems of a galaxy rather than by just being the strongest fighter. To me that makes him a more interesting and threatening villain.

Edits: I think you made an interesting point about the Empire using an old Tie fighter design. While technology has remained similar for a long time in Star Wars and it serves the interest of nostalgia for the Original Trilogy, it also suggests that the Empire's R and D budget isn't what it used to be. But there's also the possibility that some one else is using those ships.

[Adam Reynolds]

But I don't think anyone can reform the Empire. It is a vile, genocidal dictatorship and whatever good it may have done is tainted by the vileness of its creator and the methods he used to create it.

A further problem is who was in positions of authority, even excluding the Emperor. When someone like Tarkin was given the rank that he was, there is something deeply wrong with your organization. With enough like him in the bureaucracy, especially as governors with at least nominal authority over the military, it would be difficult for anything to change.

I could see a group of reformed Imperial followers trying to maintain order and rebuild, but for the resulting regime to be anything worthwhile, it would have to be so different from the original Empire that it would effectively be a completely different state.

A logical starting point should be to attempt to reconvene the Imperial Senate and from there attempt to move back to the system of the Republic, essentially acting in the inverse of what Palpatine did. Though obviously this would be rather contentious with the Rebel Alliance as they were trying to completely recreate the Old Republic rather than fix the Empire. I'm surprised no one in the early post-ROTJ EU ever considered this possibility of an early political conflict of this nature. That might work well as backstory for the new movies, that the Imperial Senate reformed and was thus able to keep the peace for a long period of time after Endor.

Edits: I think you made an interesting point about the Empire using an old Tie fighter design. While technology has remained similar for a long time in Star Wars and it serves the interest of nostalgia for the Original Trilogy, it also suggests that the Empire's R and D budget isn't what it used to be. But there's also the possibility that some one else is using those ships.

I was wondering that myself actually. Though clearly the Empire still is involved at least somewhat given that stormtroopers make an appearance, something literally no one else would consider using considering the bad reputation they would have if the Empire had fallen completely

[cmdrjones]

This alone is an improvement as it makes the movies more relatable to a wider audience. Having it be a black stormtrooper as an important character is also interesting as it also humanizes them.

it humanizes Black people or Stormtroopers?

I don't understand this whole "racist" flap about the black "stormtrooper"... we really have two scenarios here:

#1 He's a real stromtrooper and therefore those objecting are pointing out that up until this point black people, (MAce Windu, Black X-wing pilots, Lando Calrissian, Captain Panaka Sp? etc.) have always been portrayed as GOOD GUYS, so there is no precedent for a Black stormtrooper. So what they are saying is: Hey man, why would a Black Guy join the Empire? Or stated differently: Why would a Jew join the SS?
This may be "racist" in the sense of "You can't tell somebody what they can and can't do based on race!"
But is it Racist to assume GOOD qualities about a group of people based on prior observation? If so, is it WORSE than assuming bad qualities about a group based on prior observation?

#2 He, like previous examples Han Solo and Luke Skywalker stole the armor or is in disguise... in this case, (Or just the possibility of this case) the whole "controversy" falls apart and we now have a compelling and engaging character. Why would he be wearing the armor? Did he Desert? Did he kill somebody to get it?
What's going on? and so on.

#3 Just a personal observation... Isn't it a wee bit racist to assume some group or another can't be engaged unless characters on the screen "look like them"?

[cmdrjones]

That certainly was the main argument it seems, that totalitarianism is better than instability. The same argument is often made with Iraq as a result of the American "liberation" in 2003. In one of the best cases of irony to come out of such things, one such argument was even made by Dick Cheney in 1994, after he was SecDef under Bush senior. Another point frequently made was that many of those who were criticizing the Empire were Americans, who had no problem with America's use of strategic bombing and even nuclear weapons in WW2. It is all but impossible to justify Hiroshima while condemning Alderaan at the same time.

This is just a quibble, and I apologize in advance for any thread derailment, but if we take Princess Leia at her world, AT BEST it would be like the A "superpower" Nuking some country for Aiding and abetting a rebel faction in their civil war, so, kind of like revolutionary France nuking Britain, because of the scarlet pimpernel.

[Adam Reynolds]

This is just a quibble, and I apologize in advance for any thread derailment, but if we take Princess Leia at her world, AT BEST it would be like the A "superpower" Nuking some country for Aiding and abetting a rebel faction in their civil war, so, kind of like revolutionary France nuking Britain, because of the scarlet pimpernel.

I'm not sure that this thread could be derailed at this point, given the number of divergent discussions that are occurring between it and the two trailer threads. Alderaan wasn't a sovereign state, as it was a member world of the Empire given that Princess Leia was a full member of the Imperial Senate if nothing else.

it humanizes Black people or Stormtroopers?

Obviously I meant that it humanized stormtroopers. I was more thinking that it was because he was relentless and seemed desperate, not merely that he was black. The fact that we see a black stormtrooper simply gives them a greater degree of diversity, which is nice.

#3 Just a personal observation... Isn't it a wee bit racist to assume some group or another can't be engaged unless characters on the screen "look like them"?

While obviously one can and should be able to empathize with any character, regardless of what they look like, it is striking when a film doesn't have a single character who isn't white. Having Leia as the only woman in the Rebel cell in ANH is also somewhat odd, as is the fact that every single face we see in the Rebel briefing is white. I was more meaning that we actually see a degree of diversity here.

It's like the feminist criticism that only 30 percent of speaking roles in film are women. Because this seems normal, when the ratio approaches 50 percent, it feels like women are dominating the story. The same issue is true with minority characters. Traditionally, if you had a black lead in a film it must be intended for black audiences(Will Smith used to be the sole exception).

[xerex]

For me , the implications of a continuing Empire are massive.

It means the Empire is competent. It has actual popular support . it also means who ever took over for Palpatine has some serious leadership abilities to hold the Empire together without the use of the Force..

[Lord Revan]

For me , the implications of a continuing Empire are massive.

It means the Empire is competent. It has actual popular support . it also means who ever took over for Palpatine has some serious leadership abilities to hold the Empire together without the use of the Force..

I wouldn't be surpriced if at least some of the "surporters" of the Galactic Empire were more surporters of the Status Quo, since lets face it most people who are old enough to remember the Galactic Republic remember the PT era with it's strife and chaos even when there was no outright Civil War and thus could see a semi compentent Empire the lesser of two evils, "at least the empire makes the hovertrains ruin in time" kind of mentality.

[cmdrjones]

For me , the implications of a continuing Empire are massive.

It means the Empire is competent. It has actual popular support . it also means who ever took over for Palpatine has some serious leadership abilities to hold the Empire together without the use of the Force..

I wouldn't be surpriced if at least some of the "surporters" of the Galactic Empire were more surporters of the Status Quo, since lets face it most people who are old enough to remember the Galactic Republic remember the PT era with it's strife and chaos even when there was no outright Civil War and thus could see a semi compentent Empire the lesser of two evils, "at least the empire makes the hovertrains ruin in time" kind of mentality.

i thought it was friction that makes hover trains "ruin in time"?

[Lord Revan]

For me , the implications of a continuing Empire are massive.

It means the Empire is competent. It has actual popular support . it also means who ever took over for Palpatine has some serious leadership abilities to hold the Empire together without the use of the Force..

I wouldn't be surpriced if at least some of the "surporters" of the Galactic Empire were more surporters of the Status Quo, since lets face it most people who are old enough to remember the Galactic Republic remember the PT era with it's strife and chaos even when there was no outright Civil War and thus could see a semi compentent Empire the lesser of two evils, "at least the empire makes the hovertrains ruin in time" kind of mentality.

i thought it was friction that makes hover trains "ruin in time"?

"...run in time", just a typo there but I assume you get the idea

[cmdrjones]

"...run in time", just a typo there but I assume you get the idea[/quote]


I do, it was just a moment...

This is just a quibble, and I apologize in advance for any thread derailment, but if we take Princess Leia at her world, AT BEST it would be like the A "superpower" Nuking some country for Aiding and abetting a rebel faction in their civil war, so, kind of like revolutionary France nuking Britain, because of the scarlet pimpernel.

I'm not sure that this thread could be derailed at this point, given the number of divergent discussions that are occurring between it and the two trailer threads. Alderaan wasn't a sovereign state, as it was a member world of the Empire given that Princess Leia was a full member of the Imperial Senate if nothing else.]

That's even worse, so then it's more like the Vendee massacre then?

[cmdrjones]

Out of sheer curiosity, what do the stereotypes of 'liberal' and the... weird decision to lapse into stereotypical black dialect... have to do with the actual idea of your post?

I didn't get that across very well, obviously.
It's the old "step and fetch it" routine, (a version of the "aww shucks ma'am") used in the pre civil rights era to denote a 'bad' character (most always black) who is trying to excuse some type of bad behavior by "apologizing" in the most dehumanizing way possible, thus excusing it in the minds of the racist audience. i.e. he "couldn't help it" etc.
IMHO, it could only be MORE offensive if anakin was black. Padme has no justification to rationalize away his slaughter of the sand people's WOMEN & CHILDREN, especially when she has consistently demonstrated liberal (classic liberal BTW) political sensibilities all through her career, but she DOES IT ANYWAY. The explanation in universe being "Love". I don't diagree with the idea, just it's terrible execution.

TL;DR: Padmes reaction, while IMHO idiotic, fits perfectly for a (liberal) woman in love who wants to "fix" the hunky bad boy, mainly because she rationalizes away his faults, BUT it's heavyhanded execution strains credulity.

[Irbis]

That's even worse, so then it's more like the Vendee massacre then?

More like this.

Speaking of which, the irony, site of one most notable US battles for freedom and political rights against oppression and economic slavery sold for pennies to be strip blasted for worthless, polluted coal. If cartoonist drew it, we'd say he is trying way too hard and overdid the anvil dropping...

[Adam Reynolds]

On the issue of Padme's response to the Tusken massacre, I feel like that was a missed opportunity. It would have been more interesting if Anakin confessed his actions to Palpatine and only Palpatine. With both Padme and the Jedi, he should have had rightful concerns about their responses and thus ironically Palpatine was the only one he could trust enough to tell the truth. This would the segue into ROTS better as when Anakin had his later concerns Palpatine was the only one he could trust enough to be honest with.

It would have also built up another issue that was interesting, that Anakin and Padme didn't actually trust each other or tell each other secrets. In ROTS, Anakin concealed his concerns about what Padme was doing while she concealed her involvement with what would be the Rebellion(in both deleted scenes and the novelization).

In addition to the above issue, I've always thought that the weakness of AOTC was that the romance was completely divorced from the rest of the story. In comparison in ESB, Han and Leia fell in love during the desperation of being on the run from the Empire. Such a dynamic for Anakin and Padme would have also been interesting, with a vibe almost analogous to the film Terminator, that any mistake meant death. Though obviously the assassins would be weaker in this case and the danger would be a question of the fact that there was always another one around the corner. This would also tie together with Obi-Wan's plot and give it a greater sense of urgency. It could also have effectively set up Tatooine in that Anakin could have suggested going there after assassins find them on Naboo, with it then being revealed later that he really went there to find his mother.

[Adam Reynolds]

For me , the implications of a continuing Empire are massive.

It means the Empire is competent. It has actual popular support . it also means who ever took over for Palpatine has some serious leadership abilities to hold the Empire together without the use of the Force..

I wouldn't be surpriced if at least some of the "surporters" of the Galactic Empire were more surporters of the Status Quo, since lets face it most people who are old enough to remember the Galactic Republic remember the PT era with it's strife and chaos even when there was no outright Civil War and thus could see a semi compentent Empire the lesser of two evils, "at least the empire makes the hovertrains ruin in time" kind of mentality.

I am wondering what the logical galactic state of affairs at the time of the new movies would be. As I was thinking about the EU in that thread, I was left thinking about the concept I found most interesting in the post-ROTJ EU, that of the idea of a significant power gap in the galaxy. While this did involve stories like Darksaber that were mostly crap, the basic concept was interesting.

The issue for the New Republic was that they lack the ability to exert significant control throughout the galaxy. Without the massive centralized armies of the Empire, or the Jedi able to act as supernaturally gifted benevolent secret police, the New Republic would have a great deal of difficulty just keeping things together. That would be an interesting starting point for the new films. Especially if the Sith seem to be coming back again, as it would give them an interesting position.

[The Romulan Republic]

It makes sense to me that their would be no top dog after Return of the Jedi. The Empire should be either gone or hugely weakened (otherwise it undermines the end of Return of the Jedi), but its unlikely that the little guerrilla group that is the Rebel Alliance is going to be able to control the galaxy by force (especially since they won't resort to the Empire's brutality) and not every world is necessarily going to join them willingly.

I'd like to see a diverse galaxy divided between three or more interstellar governments.

[Soontir C'boath]

If Wookiepedia is to be believed, the empire only lasted 25 years. It wouldn't be farfetched to me to see the empire splitting along Separatists lines again and fragment even further from within the loyalists as well which would be a great way to keep a sort of continuity.

[Adam Reynolds]

If Wookiepedia is to be believed, the empire only lasted 25 years. It wouldn't be farfetched to me to see the empire splitting along Separatists lines again and fragment even further from within the loyalists as well which would be a great way to keep a sort of continuity.

That would mean it fell just after Endor, though what is the source on this? Until the new movies there is nothing anymore with regard to that era.

As for splintering, this also happened in Legends as well. In the Wraith Squadron trilogy, Han and Wraith Squadron actually enter into an alliance with an Imperial admiral so that they can jointly hunt Zinj.

[Purple]

One thing that might happen though is that the empire would persist in the core worlds. With the emperor gone it's plausible to assume that many of the rich and powerful human centric core worlds would prefer to keep the institution going and reform it back into the republic rather than tearing it all down and starting from scratch. It'd also give them some legitimacy as the empire is the successor state to the republic so a successor state to it would be as well.

[The Romulan Republic]

I would think that if the Empire stayed in power anywhere it would be in the military-industrial complex-heavy areas. Places like Kuat (if its still canon), Corillea, Kessel, and Kamino. They would have made a lot of money off of the Imperial military, would be full of Imperial soldiers, and would have a lot to lose if the Rebels took over. Although such worlds would also be top priority targets for the Rebels if they had the strength to attack them.

Edit: The Rebels, meanwhile, would likely have the support of worlds that opposed Palpatine's authoritarian policies, worlds populated primarily by aliens, and possibly former separatist worlds.

[FaxModem1]

Well, that's assuming anything like that survives the new canon. Corellia could become some backwater planet that makes Tattooine look like a hub of civilization, the Empire could be terrorists that that are trying to stay relevant, becoming a bit like Neo-Nazis in modern day Europe, or the Rebellion could become a new Empire, even worse than the government they overthrew.

[The Romulan Republic]

Corellia could become a weak world, but it can't have been one all along whatever the status of the EU is. There is Han's reference in A New Hope to "...the big Corillean ships." Unless Han was lying for some reason.

Edit: Except that Corellia could be something other than a planet going just by that line. Like a sector or a corporation.

[Batman]

Doesn't chance the fact that Corellia can't have been weak though. Just changes what Corellia actually means. Han rates them 'above' the locally available Imperial ships. ' I've outrun Imperial starships, not the local bulk-cruisers, mind you. I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now.' So 'whatever' Corellia ends up being, they're a big enough player for Han to comment on it.

[The Romulan Republic]

Apparently some of the characters' names have been revealed.

insidemovies.ew.com/2014/12/11/star-wars-the-force-awakens-character-names/

We finally got to meet some new characters in the teaser trailer for Star Wars: The Force Awakens, but now we’re getting to put some names with the faces.
Related
Star Wars Galaxy: See Full Coverage George Lucas really has parted ways with 'Star Wars.' So why are we mad? 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' trailer: A deep dive
J.J. Abrams, the film’s co-writer and director, and Kathleen Kennedy, president of Lucasfilm, have decided to reveal the identities of some of their new characters exclusively to EW—and they’ve done it in a retro fashion that should bring a smile to anyone familiar with the phrase “Collect ‘Em, Trade ‘Em.”
That was the catchphrase of the Topps trading card company, which in addition to baseball players and comic book characters put out a series of collectible cards featuring scenes and characters from around the galaxy for the original 1977 Star Wars movie.
There were five rounds of Topps cards for that movie, each one designated by a different color, with red and blue leading the line-up. Right now, Abrams and Kennedy have mocked up three from the red series, and five from the blue series.
GET MORE EW: Subscribe to the magazine for only 33¢ an issue!
Will we get more some day? Perhaps…
There’s certainly much more to reveal. We haven’t yet seen Lupita Nyong’o, Gwendoline Christie, Adam Driver, Domhnall Gleeson, or Max von Sydow—let alone any of the veteran stars Mark Hamill, Harrison Ford, or Carrie Fisher. And we’ve heard, but not seen, Andy Serkis. (Someday we may see similar reveals with yellow, green, and orange borders.)
For now, we’re getting to know the characters played by John Boyega, Daisy Ridley, and Oscar Isaac—as well as that shadowy figure in the snow with the crossguard lightsaber.
Also, we no longer have to call that adorable, rolling robot “ball droid.” Like C-3PO and R2-D2 before him (her?), that character now has its own alphanumeric moniker: BB-8.
The card captions also give a hint about the state of mind of the characters, but this far from the Dec. 18, 2015 release date, the filmmakers don’t want to reveal any more.
“I’m only sorry we couldn’t give everyone a stick of gum,” Abrams says.
Here’s a rundown of the reveal, listed in order of their collectible card number, with some analysis and speculation thrown in for good measure. (Asked if there was significance to the numbering, Abrams replied: “YES.”) Time to get on that, Bothan spies.
• #11 — BB-8 on the move
• #53 — Poe Dameron in his X-Wing
• #67 — Kylo Ren ignites his Lightsaber
• #74 — Rey on her Speeder
• #76 — Finn on the run
• #81 — Stormtroopers prepare for battle
• #88 — X-Wings in formation
• #96 — The Millennium Falcon
Next page: Meet BB-8

Edits: Just an excerpt. Apparently the whole thing is really long. And apparently the link doesn't work. I double-checked it so I'm not sure why.