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The Greek pantheon were assholes in general, making them another likely source of conflict should we encounter them.

Being a jackass does not inevitably lead to conflict. The Greek Gods showed a tendancy to be dicks and take sides in mortal affairs, but I don't remember them doing anything that would set them against all of mankind...

Except what they did to Prometheus.

Imaging how the Olympians would react to meeting a humanity that is on par with or superior to them in power is rather amusing.

The objection to the idea that spreading religious belief equals spreading power on Earth is that Yahweh and Satan seem to have driven away the "Others" before pre-history ended. We have records stretching back five thousand years, reliable ones nearly three thousand years, and there's no mention of armies of angels and demons clashing in contemporary times. Sometimes written legends and myths that can be interpreted as the clash of deities but always some indistinct time long ago before civilization really gained a foothold. And since they only turned on each other after they had won the battle against the other would-be gods, it means Yahweh had to be the strongest power thousands of years before Christianity ever existed, and before monotheism was more than a fancy in the mind of Akhenaton.

maybe the others are cthulu

Darth Yan wrote:maybe the others are cthulu

Welcome to about five pages ago.

Junghalli wrote:Imaging how the Olympians would react to meeting a humanity that is on par with or superior to them in power is rather amusing.

I dunno. The Olympians were dicks, but they never struck me as suicidally deluded when confronted with force. Hell, they were sensible enough to swallow their pride and ask for the then-mortal Heracles' help when Gaia spawned some giants to topple Olympus.

Darth Yoshi wrote:I dunno. The Olympians were dicks, but they never struck me as suicidally deluded when confronted with force. Hell, they were sensible enough to swallow their pride and ask for the then-mortal Heracles' help when Gaia spawned some giants to topple Olympus.

I wasn't really thinking of them starting an actual armed conflict with us. I was more thinking of the priceless looks some of them might have on their faces when it dawns on them that humans have attained levels of power equalling or even surpassing their own and they're going to have to treat them accordingly.

So Zeus will probably change his tack to "Empowered women are such a turn on", Ares will join the NRA, and we see Hera making a Lifetime original movie about her unhappy marriage to Zeus.

Junghalli wrote:I wasn't really thinking of them starting an actual armed conflict with us. I was more thinking of the priceless looks some of them might have on their faces when it dawns on them that humans have attained levels of power equalling or even surpassing their own and they're going to have to treat them accordingly.

I'd pay money to see this. Even more if pictures of their expressions were included in the deal.

I'm also wondering how the Aesir or the Pesedjet would react to us?

The Aesir always struck me as a fairly hands-off set of gods. They never made any bones about being elitist, either - only picking the best warriors for their afterlife - so we have little reason to be angry with them. The one possible problem is Loki and his family.. it's completely bizarre that they'd allow him to stick around, given all he's done, so I'm not sure what's going on there.

Still, if anything, I think we'd get along with them pretty well.

SCRawl wrote:

Darth Yan wrote:maybe the others are cthulu

Welcome to about five pages ago.

This actually makes some sense as an explanation for the Aztec gods. A really alien set of bubble-universe beings stumbled upon Mesoamerica, there were a few drastic encounters, and much shouting, reveling, and killing ensued.

I mean, Yahweh may be from a bubble universe in the Salvation War setting, but he's not really all that alien when you get down to it. You could imagine a human being acting that way with that kind of power, even if you wouldn't like them for it. But Tlaloc demanding child sacrifices to keep the rains coming? And getting them? Even Yahweh didn't actually make Abraham go through with it...

Baughn wrote:The Aesir always struck me as a fairly hands-off set of gods. They never made any bones about being elitist, either - only picking the best warriors for their afterlife - so we have little reason to be angry with them. The one possible problem is Loki and his family.. it's completely bizarre that they'd allow him to stick around, given all he's done, so I'm not sure what's going on there.

Well, by the end of the Norse 'past' mythology, they've imprisoned him in a cave, strapped him to a table with a rope made of his son's innards, and there's a snake dripping corrosive venom onto his face until the world comes to an end (in hindsight, centuries). So they did eventually quit putting up with him, yeah.

As to why they tolerated him before then, Loki was probably the cleverest of the Norse gods, and was often the one who figured out how to get them out of trouble. So they tolerated him as a valuable, if annoying, asset... until his insults and tricks got too extreme.

Simon_Jester wrote:Well, by the end of the Norse 'past' mythology, they've imprisoned him in a cave, strapped him to a table with a rope made of his son's innards, and there's a snake dripping corrosive venom onto his face until the world comes to an end (in hindsight, centuries). So they did eventually quit putting up with him, yeah.

As to why they tolerated him before then, Loki was probably the cleverest of the Norse gods, and was often the one who figured out how to get them out of trouble. So they tolerated him as a valuable, if annoying, asset... until his insults and tricks got too extreme.

Basically he fell into the trap a lot of clever assholes fall into, he realized that he was valuable to the other gods and decided to push it as far is his value was worth. Sadly for him he overestimated just how far that was...

Michael is probably gonna make that same error; or when humans enter heaven he becomes desperate, thus becoming sloppier

I'm curious...if Michael could, would he enter into negotiations of some kind with the humans? I ask this because while he's trying to preserve his position, he also knows just how precarious it is...and I have no doubt that if he could take over the show in exchange for some sort of "limited concessions" with the humans, he would. To some extent he can disclaim responsibility for government policy (and probably pile up several hundred witnesses to back him up).

I guess the question is this: Under what conditions would Michael be willing to cut a deal with the humans and what form would that deal need to take for him to be willing to take it?

Baughn wrote:The Aesir always struck me as a fairly hands-off set of gods. They never made any bones about being elitist, either - only picking the best warriors for their afterlife - so we have little reason to be angry with them. The one possible problem is Loki and his family.. it's completely bizarre that they'd allow him to stick around, given all he's done, so I'm not sure what's going on there.

From what I've read, the Aesir were honorable beings, and never made a secret of the fact that they could die.

As for Valhalla, the best way to describe it would be the place badasses go after they die, where they spend the rest of their existence kicking ass during the day, then partying at all hours of the night. No need for sleep, and all injuries heal during the feasting due to the mead being laced with a powerful regenerative agent.

As for Loki, the Aesir would have liked to get rid of him, but he was clever enough to avoid getting a well deserved axe in the cranium. Case in point, he once made a bet where, if he lost, he'd let the Aesir behead him. He lost the bet, but then pointed out a little detail no one else had thought important. He had promised to let them cut his head off as long as they didn't harm any other part of his body. And when he said any other part, he meant any other part, neck included. Was a real moment for the Aesir, as I'm sure you can guess.

Another point in their favor is that Norse culture was very big on hospitality. If someone came to your home, you were obligated to bring them in and treat them well. An envoy of humans to Asgard would probably not have to worry about, for example, getting stabbed in the back in their sleep, or having food poisoned, or whatever.

So I guess with the other mythologies coming into play soon, I guess it's a question to which mythos will play a part. There are literally hundreds of different myths created throughout history. But a lot of them have cultural overlap. So is Stuart going to go with the "common" ones in his fic? Lesse...

Norse/Germanic, Greek (and by extension Roman), Egyptian, Mesoamerican, Hindu, Chinese. Did I miss any? Arthurian legend? Shintoism? Any of the many Native American or African mythos?

And notice how a lot of ancient myths (Norse, Greek, Hindu, etc.) as well as the Bible hint to there being "giants" in the early days. Perhaps they could be the first primordial race on earth before the various Pantheons barged in. Also, nearly all the myths tell of a "great flood" which could be something.

And I'm hearing from you guys about the possibility of the Cthulhu mythos, and I approve of this suggestion. Perhaps the Great Old ones could be responsible for both the giants and the flood.

There's a curious point of comparison between the greek and the norse myths, by the way.

Specifically, the norns/fates. Past, present and future.. realistically they're just mental attractors, but their descriptions are almost identical in norse and greek myths, and they're not part of the pantheon as such.

Powers behind the scenes, perhaps?

GrayAnderson wrote: I guess the question is this: Under what conditions would Michael be willing to cut a deal with the humans and what form would that deal need to take for him to be willing to take it?

To be honest this is pretty much a moot question. As far as the plot goes Michael has no control over the war - Humanity has declared it and it is up to them if there are any negotiations.

In other words you might better ask "Under what conditions would Humanity be willing to refrain from the destruction of 'Heaven'?"

Andy

I'd guess under roughly the same conditions they applied to Hell: total regime change with the new government being headed by a thoroughly controlled human puppet. At a bare minimum, Michael would have to be able to present human envoys with Yahweh wrapped in several miles of steel cable, and probably agree to an unconditional surrender.

I'm still trying to figure out whether humanity in this setting feels it has a specific bone to pick with Michael the way they do with, say, Uriel. So far, I can't think of anything he's done in recent memory that would place him on a "much better dead" list in human eyes beyond the basic guilt-by-association factor. Yes, he's been very much in on the war, but I don't think he's been directly associated with any "you son of a bitch you'll pay for that" events like the lava-portaling of Detroit and Sheffield, or the mass civilian deaths caused by Uriel.

The Aesir always struck me as a fairly hands-off set of gods. They never made any bones about being elitist, either - only picking the best warriors for their afterlife - so we have little reason to be angry with them.

They were certainly some interesting characters (which makes me wonder whether they actually exist, or are merely a distortion - among others - for a group of beings). Odin in particular, what with his backstory of giving up one of his eyes for knowledge, and hanging himself from the world tree.

Loates wrote:

GrayAnderson wrote: I guess the question is this: Under what conditions would Michael be willing to cut a deal with the humans and what form would that deal need to take for him to be willing to take it?

To be honest this is pretty much a moot question. As far as the plot goes Michael has no control over the war - Humanity has declared it and it is up to them if there are any negotiations.

In other words you might better ask "Under what conditions would Humanity be willing to refrain from the destruction of 'Heaven'?"

Andy

Well, I guess the question comes up in the context of "If Michael had the ability to call up world leaders and try to cut a deal behind Yah-Yah's back, what would he go for?"

Obviously at the moment he's playing for time (the text has said as much several times), but I think he's smart enough to know that the stalemate can't go on forever (at least as long as he has to keep launching attacks on Earth; were he able to completely disengage, that would be another story). More to the point, he clearly doesn't have a hope in Hell of beating the humans without a substantial amount of time to improve Heaven's military (I think given free rein and a decade or so to plan he'd have a good shot at winning). Unless and until he gets both access to technical know-how (which he seems pretty good at doing considering the acts he's been pulling together at his club) and time, though, he's stuck.

As crazy as it sounds, I think there are probably still a decent number of people, both in Hell and on Earth, who if offered a "get out of Hell free" card would probably still take it (particularly if they get to dip into the Pit and plead "purgatory" to an individual otherwise clueless about what's been going on, and/or if he was able to plead "regime change"), so he could get access to technical expertise.

One other thing...it's pretty clear that Michael wants to off Yahweh in the story. If he did so and then handed the body over to the humans (I think a case can be made for "containment difficulties"), I think he'd also be in a fairly decent position...and if he were able to negotiate on the terms of regime change I think he'd be able to get somewhere, too (though as even he's noted, once everyone gets inside there will be more than a little bit of anger to go around).

Edit: Also, it is worth noting that Michael does have the benefit, at least at the moment, of having a better defensive position than Hell did. He at least has that chip to work with.

He could pull a combined Luga/Abigor gambit and act as the anchor point for the portal that delivered an assassination team/cruise missile strike.

LoofahBoy wrote:So I guess with the other mythologies coming into play soon, I guess it's a question to which mythos will play a part. There are literally hundreds of different myths created throughout history. But a lot of them have cultural overlap. So is Stuart going to go with the "common" ones in his fic? Lesse...

Norse/Germanic, Greek (and by extension Roman), Egyptian, Mesoamerican, Hindu, Chinese. Did I miss any? Arthurian legend? Shintoism? Any of the many Native American or African mythos?

And notice how a lot of ancient myths (Norse, Greek, Hindu, etc.) as well as the Bible hint to there being "giants" in the early days. Perhaps they could be the first primordial race on earth before the various Pantheons barged in. Also, nearly all the myths tell of a "great flood" which could be something.

And I'm hearing from you guys about the possibility of the Cthulhu mythos, and I approve of this suggestion. Perhaps the Great Old ones could be responsible for both the giants and the flood.

If you read the discussions on Armageddon carefully, there's a hint in there (the last line of Pantheocide) that gives a clue to this.

It might just be that Cthulhu (or just any 'Elder Star Gods') are beings from a bubble-verse that is where being that encompass more then 3 dimensional states live. And the act of crossing over into a universe (ours) that has matter in 3 dimensions only (pls don't bring up quantum states. pls *begs*) that it results in something that quite literally is incomprehensible to the various sensory apparatus of the human body. Sort of likely trying to actually look directly at an unfolded hypercube and seeing a second one inside the first in a way that even M.C. Escher couldn't even attempt to draw. Its so beyond what the human mind can visually process that we end up with a visual image that actually starts causing pain/insanity. Much like how rapidly flashing images can cause some people to have seizures. Only this would be something far worse.

Just try to visualize something like say, a Klein Bottle, that has three sides, not just one.