SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread MK IV

[Raj Ahten]

Well, as far as the Iron General went, he hooked up with Shep because he was willing to sell the arms the General thought Alexandria needed without pre-conditions and that if he was seen as friendly to the UAR, Sadaamistan would be unlikely to intervene in Alexandria's affairs. Basically Alexander told Shep he would persue his own interests and destroy threats if they developed, such as if the Jihadists to the North started acting up. And he also has made a point to pay for what arms he does get.

Mostly though he doesn't give two shits about the rest of Libertopia, except that he may want to seize another port at some time to secure his connections to the outside world. His main goal is to make Alexandria into a real functional country, and the main threat to that is probably warlords based out of the communes who don't want to give up power, and interventions by other nations taking his shit away.

After Shep deployed Nukes in an extrewme overreaction to a deal Alexander made to keep the MESS happy, that made him think Shep is unstable and dangerous to be associating with given Alexander's goals for his nation. So now he is likely to seek help from the MESS or even the FUN.

[MKSheppard]

Oh god Zero Wing?

That's considered a WMD mang!

[Shroom Man 777]

Zirconium Information Gala, man.

Basically, giving the Shepnukistanis satellite TV

EDIT:

Actually, AM/FM radios.

[MKSheppard]

Are they in little parachutes? How are the radios going to get in?

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, you're not jamming your country's airwaves, are you?

People have satellite receivers and illegally leech of ShroomSatTV. Get news. Broadcast it over the AMs and FMs to each other, and people hear what a Bad Mang you are

I am assuming that Shepnukistanis have radios.

EDIT:

This is basically an act of Shepnukistanis who don't leik you. If that's illegal in-game and stuff, well...

It's not like I RPed your government or your military.

EDIT 2:

You can, totally, like oppress those mangs and send them to Shepmo. The Shepnukistani equivalent of Gitmo.

[MKSheppard]

I am assuming that Shepnukistanis have radios.

Well yes, but most of them will be tuned to the Civil Defense Band; in fact, all televisions and radios sold in Shepnukistan are built with PERKI chips in them.

Basically PERKI is tied into Shepnukistani NORAD; and it's a simple broadcast system. NORAD detects an ICBM headed towards Laurel? Then the PERKI system broadcasts "ICBM INBOUND TO LAUREL" on those radios and TVs.

It also can be used to warn people of areas where fallout is heavy; e.g. where NOT to evacuate to.

This is an actual thing; it was proposed in the sixties as part of the SAFEGUARD ABM system.

Anyway, that's where my civil defense efforts have been put into; a lot of light bomb shelters; basically, your local library, polcie station, etc shopping mall, all have a decent bomb shelter in them; enough to at least keep people out of the fallout for a week; and they shield the people inside from the blast and thermal pulse of a bomb. Of course, since they're not the super uber bunkers everyone's been building, a near miss can knock the hell out of them; but it sure beats being in the open...

[MKSheppard]

You can, totally, like oppress those mangs and send them to Shepmo. The Shepnukistani equivalent of Gitmo.

We'll send them to the uranium mines in Neverhood.

But it all depends on what happens next.

[Lonestar]

Well yes, but most of them will be tuned to the Civil Defense Band; in fact, all televisions and radios sold in Shepnukistan are built with PERKI chips in them.

Basically PERKI is tied into Shepnukistani NORAD; and it's a simple broadcast system. NORAD detects an ICBM headed towards Laurel? Then the PERKI system broadcasts "ICBM INBOUND TO LAUREL" on those radios and TVs.

It also can be used to warn people of areas where fallout is heavy; e.g. where NOT to evacuate to.

This is an actual thing; it was proposed in the sixties as part of the SAFEGUARD ABM system.

Anyway, that's where my civil defense efforts have been put into; a lot of light bomb shelters; basically, your local library, polcie station, etc shopping mall, all have a decent bomb shelter in them; enough to at least keep people out of the fallout for a week; and they shield the people inside from the blast and thermal pulse of a bomb. Of course, since they're not the super uber bunkers everyone's been building, a near miss can knock the hell out of them; but it sure beats being in the open...

The LSR basically is using the plethora of Tornado shelters as falloutshelters.

[Shroom Man 777]

What happens next is that I am going to sleep.

Anyone who wants to RP the Free Shepnukistanis can go FOLLOW ME TO FREEDOM!

[MKSheppard]

Yeah go head, show CHAOS!

[Coyote]

See, Shep, here's the thing-- by having a totally nuclear-weapons based defense force, it guarantees one of two things: Armageddon, or Eternal Standoff.

Armageddon: Completely changes the game to Jericho/Mad Max; not what we signed on for.
Eternal Standoff: Walking-on-eggshell boring.

Conventional forces allows for things to play out without immediately leaping right to the Zero Sum Game. As it is, it doesn't matter if my forces were to try to invade you, or if my puppy just poops on your lawn, it's 100% devastation.

[Sea Skimmer]

See, Shep, here's the thing-- by having a totally nuclear-weapons based defense force, it guarantees one of two things: Armageddon, or Eternal Standoff.

Conventional forces allows for things to play out without immediately leaping right to the Zero Sum Game. As it is, it doesn't matter if my forces were to try to invade you, or if my puppy just poops on your lawn, it's 100% devastation.

Well too bad for that idea that everyone instantly banded into giant illogically located power blocks, making conventional wars effectively impossible anyway, and those power blocks then began to make all sorts of unilateral declarations and invented ‘laws’, before launching all out economic wars and sea blockades over unproven accusations (seriously now, all Saddamistan has ever done that can be proven in any real way is bomb some fishing boats over a year ago in game time on an island EVERYONE is fucking around with ) . Do people not see how blatantly they have backed the Saddamistan and then the UAR into a corner? How people keep asking for negotiations with nation they've openly tried to starve into submission? The result is the brink of nuclear war, and in all reality if this was real it would have been nuclear war back when people first started declaring blockades. Don't want a nuclear war? Then stop trying to destroy sovereign nations. As it is right now your all giving the UAR virtually no choice but to strike first with everything it has. In the long term your all intent on its economic destruction, and in the short time you might all preemptively attack at any moment. You don’t fucking do that shit to nuclear powers, but no one but Phong seems to realize that.

Some of the planning going on its totally illogical anyway, like Stats hiding away his nuclear bombs, in other worlds as far as any otherwise would see, trying to ensure that after the world blows up he STILL has nukes to use afterwards. Not a very friendly move.

[MKSheppard]

*chatters excitedly*

Oh yes, more to the point, the MESS is a very overmilitarized state; it seems like each Tsardom in the MESS contributes three or four carriers to the overall MESS OBAT. Meanwhile I'm an Imperium, and I only support three carriers; and if I wanted to even have a chance to match the MESS conventionally, I'd have to buy seven or eight carriers plus the supporting escorts.

Great way to T-Bone my economy -- there's no way I can afford that, except a permanent war footing. So I went with nuclear weapons to ensure my national security.

[Lonestar]

What a load of horseshit Shep. You were in the OMSK Pact, so you would have been able to field a comparable conventional military to the MESS anyway. More to the point, you had the "rods from God" protecting you, and instead you decided to just build up a massive first strike nuclear option.

Don't go "wa wa Big Bad MESS" on us. You backed yourself into the corner. No one else.

[PeZook]

Yes,yes. The evil world passes international laws (hell of a unilateral declaration when everybody but two maniacs signed it...), and Saddamistan doesn't comment.

The world talks about Libertia, and Saddamistan ignores the talks.

Then Saddamistan bombs Libertia.

The world gets pissed.

Saddamistan gets pissed EVEN MORE.

And the circle continues. All proposals for diplomacy and reconcillation are ignored completely (Come on. You didn't even say "Rescind the lockdown, and then MAYBE we'll talk if you are REALLY REALLY nice to us.").

Nobody knew what you wanted to do in Libertia because you didn't tell anybody, and your boombastic rhetoric about 1000 mile territorial waters and infinity +1 airspace and Libertian invasion armadas and threats to Zoria over their space program really worked to win people over, yeah.

Oh, and Shep: I don't actually have huge bomb shelters. I have a large network of small, 150 people or so ones. And yeah, you're gloating about intentionally murdering civilians. Way to go to defuse the situation.

[Coyote]

I've got a very "European" military-- modest sized, with force-projection capability that only has any real strength for either limited-objective smash & grab type operations (like when the Marines got US citizens of out Sierra Leone) or when used in conjunction with other nations in multi-lateral arrangements. The only real difference between a real Euro military force and Canissia's is that I actually have the wherewithall to use them if the situation requires it.

And, yes, the MESS has major conventional firepower-- conventional doesn't mean turning the whole planet and everyone on it into thyroid-cancer'd cinders.

And as for Saddamistan-- backed into a corner? Everyone was posturing and brinksmanshipping while the proxies fought it out-- and yes, we set up a blockade to keep another attck from happening and Saddam responds by claiming 500 miles of territory as his own and threatening nukes and hinting at chem, bio, and everything else. This after making rediculous claims about "infinity +1 or I'll shoot everything down" claims looooonnnnng before Libertia was ever an issue.

[PeZook]

Well, it is done. There's nothing more I can do to save my people.

And, Shep, if you bomb clearly marked and organized refugee tents on some bullshit pretense, then I will seriously have to start wondering what exactly is broken in your head.

[Sea Skimmer]

And the circle continues. All proposals for diplomacy and reconcillation are ignored completely (Come on. You didn't even say "Rescind the lockdown, and then MAYBE we'll talk if you are REALLY REALLY nice to us.").

Actually I fucking DID SAY JUST FUCKING THAT, and a long ass time ago before things boiled to this point, I said I negotiate the status of freedom of the seas and Libertipia if MESS offensive land attack warships, mainly aircraft carriers, moved to be 500 miles from my coast. Everyone’s response was to keep the whole fucking fleet of carriers in place and then make some BS claims someone else now owned them, because my terms where especially generous and allowed nations bordering me to keep there own ships around for self defense. Wow, I demand to not be forced to negotiate with five nations worth carriers steaming within attack range, and the response is word games. Real good faith terms to start negotiations on hun?

[Sea Skimmer]

And as for Saddamistan-- backed into a corner? Everyone was posturing and brinksmanshipping while the proxies fought it out-- and yes, we set up a blockade to keep another attck from happening and Saddam responds by claiming 500 miles of territory as his own and threatening nukes and hinting at chem, bio, and everything else.

I never fucking claimed 500 miles of territory moron, and the fact that people keep repeating that nonsense indicates that you don’t even fucking read what I post. I wanted a 340 mile limit, equivalent to the range of my anti ship missiles from land launchers in the fucking initial thread when the game was first being setup and had not even started, I wasn’t even on the map at the time and didn't know that the plan was to put every nation just 50 fucking miles apart. I then accepted a 24 mile limit and never claimed or even mentioned a 340 mile limit ever in the game.

Then later I made withdraw of MESS offensive land attack warships (as in carriers and ships with Tomahawks, not all warships, and certainly not all shipping period ) to 500 miles as a condition of negotiations on the status of Libertopia. That equates to just 18 hours economical steaming time, and would still in fact allow you to attack, I’d just have more warning time, but the response was a bunch of retarded word games on ship ownership rather then even a yes or no.

My claim on unlimited airspace is nothing special, the Soviets demanded the same damn thing for quite some time, and in real life no argument has ever existed on the issue! Given the fact that Bean has built a huge secret orbital weapons program this claim has proven to be completely justifiable.

You all let me know when your done inventing bullshit

[Lonestar]

Actually, we took a look at the map ("He wants us to exit the Central Sea? Fuck that") and took a book from the Reagan Administration, and just continued to drive around in international waters.

[Sea Skimmer]

Actually, we took a look at the map ("He wants us to exit the Central Sea? Fuck that") and took a book from the Reagan Administration, and just continued to drive around in international waters.

So you acknowledge the fact that I did offer to negotiate, thank you for confirming that PeZook is full of shit. Its not my fault you all have no concept of deterrence. I suggest you look up the Soviet/Cuban intervention in Angola in 1975 for an example of how a crisis like this would have been allowed to cool off in real life, espically considering that my one and only offensive action was strictly limited in scope… two waves of planes over two hours on one day… and you all decide you must destroy me. Great thinking.

[Lonestar]

I don't recall anyone saying "Hurr we must destroy Saddamistan". The most was "cordon off Terra Libertia"

And yeah, your demand of 500miles as a prerequisite to negotiation was, (to me at least) an attempt to get MESS navies away from MESS member states near you, leaving them defenseless, which is why I personally refused to meet that demand.

[Coyote]

Seriously, Skim, it was just like when Colonel Khadafy claimed the entire Gulf of Sirte as a Libyan Lake and said they'd whack anyone that came in. The US sent carriers in anyway to prove a point about the internationally recognized territorial claims.

From everyone else's point of view, the Libertopian situation was ugly, but it was contained to Libertopian shores-- until out of nowhere Saddamistan attacked... then demanded everyone back off, and detonated a nuke to punctuate the end of the sentence.

[MKSheppard]

And, Shep, if you bomb clearly marked and organized refugee tents on some bullshit pretense, then I will seriously have to start wondering what exactly is broken in your head.

Hey moron; these aren't refugee tents; but giant subterranean underground complexes that some nations have built. (I think General Deathdealer has one such huge megabunker)

What I stated in my in character speech is exactly the same reasoning that nuclear war planners use:

"Any potential enemy has no way of knowing whether they are actually full of refugees, or are really full of industrial equipment for post-attack recovery, or military units, such as the MESS' nuclear cruise missiles."

"So sadly, they must be struck to make sure that they are neither; as during a nuclear war, there is no time for on-the-ground verification."

"So yes, your leaders are willing to sacrifice your lives just so that a few devices don't fall on their airbases or naval yards."

Russia could say right this minute that Yamantau mountain really is an underground hospital full of cute and fluffy bunnies and terminally ill 10 year old cancer patients; and we'd still hit it with several hundred megatons in the event of a war.

[Raj Ahten]

My take on what happened with Sadaamistan is that Sadaamistan didn't engage in regular dialogue with other nations, other nations with very little to go on then assumed the worst, and here we are. If everyone had just said, "Let’s just talk about what we all want," in an open fashion (especially Sadaamistan) rather than through subtleties and back room deals, shit could have been worked out.

When I tried point blank to have diplomats ask people what they wanted in a crisis, they were ignored. But I don't really expect anyone to pay attention to me, my nation is so god damn tiny it has less people living it it than my home county in real life, and besides, it isn't part of any power block :shrugs:. (I should have had ProTec ask, they seem to be constantly in the center of things )

Anyway, as total war is now happening without the world leaders seriously trying to even figure out what the fuck anyone wanted, I better lay out what my bunker system is like. It is not a shitload of mega bunkers. My system designed to make an occupation difficult and resist an invasion somewhat. Many are hidden as civilian construction, such as how Hezbollah has done. There are also arms caches, hidden rooms, and tunnel networks throughout the cities. The NBC raid shelters are mostly smaller affairs in basements and such, with some larger facilities in the mountains (especially centered around my AAA assets. )The larger facilities are disguised as mines whenever possible, though some are out in the open as decoys. I hope I won't need them, as my nation has stayed neutral and has no offensive power whatsoever. That probably won't save me though .