StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Just because Yoda says it, doesn't mean it has to be right. In fact, in prequels are pretty much proof that the common Jedi thinking (brought about mostly by Yoda himself) was wrong. I think it was the novel that went into it a little bit, in that Yoda trained the current Order to be like the Order who trained him some 900 years ago, which was the Order that put down the last Sith uprising/battle/whatever. So Yoda's thinking is ancient and outdated even for him and we know the Sith consider that they themselves have changed from back then.

Or as I mentioned above, Yoda was just musing that this one dead dark Jedi warrior could not have just trained himself and had to have had someone train him and that someone could still be out there. Whereas Windu muses that perhaps this dead dark Jedi might have been training someone himself and that someone could still be out there. It pretty much sets up the atmosphere that just because this one guy is dead, doesn't mean the threat isn't still out there and that the Jedi have absolute no idea where or whom, punctuated by closing the scene with Palpatine's face.

Havok wrote:The other side of the galaxy remark could be and probably is, 100% accurate with the speeds of hyperdrives. You notice Vader didn't balk at it at all and immediately ordered all commands alerted and every possible destination along their last known trajectory calculated. You also have to keep in mind that this is a military ship with what is supposed to be the best crews in the Imperial Navy speaking to Darth Vader after a major fuck up in which he has already killed one captain. Not the time to throw out bullshit flippant remarks.

That is a rather good point, somewhat equivalent to someone today saying "he could be anywhere from London to Tokyo".

Havok wrote:As to Yoda's remark, he is speaking very specifically to who amounts as his boss, about the most important event of their lives and that of the current Jedi Order. I'm pretty sure he isn't just throwing it out there. And again, Mace doesn't go "Really? Just two? Well damn nigga, lets go find them mother fuckers.*" He clearly knows what Yoda is saying is true, it's almost more of a reminder than new information.

Havok wrote:Like Sith cells operating individually from each other. So always a Master and an Apprentice, but there could be say, 5 sets throughout the galaxy. Interesting theory. Unfortunately that fucks all the balance BS up and makes it meaningless and that stuff is in the movies.

It could have been the case historically, that before Bane this was somewhat the case. As the groups spent more time fighting each other than Jedi, Bane eventually wiped out the rest. Perhaps such an idea might make an appearance in the new films. As for balance, what do you think about Sith presumably being in the new movies? It could be that balance refers to wiping out Palpatine's Sith who had become too powerful.

Havok wrote:It also, and this is a HUGE deal with me personally, cheapens what Palpatine did and represented. He is supposed to be the culmination of evil, not just one guy of however many that could be the culmination of evil.

It's the same reason I hate Dark Empire. It completely cheapens what Luke and Anakin finally accomplished in the movies. Oh just kidding, you didn't really fulfill your destiny and destroy evil, you have to do it again el oh el.

The other thematic issue with numerous Sith is that Sith are elitist against the more populist Jedi. As for Dark Empire it was someone with no creativity trying to rehash the OT. Despite the problems with Zahn's books, at least he was creative enough to do something different.

Knife wrote:Just because Yoda says it, doesn't mean it has to be right. In fact, in prequels are pretty much proof that the common Jedi thinking (brought about mostly by Yoda himself) was wrong. I think it was the novel that went into it a little bit, in that Yoda trained the current Order to be like the Order who trained him some 900 years ago, which was the Order that put down the last Sith uprising/battle/whatever. So Yoda's thinking is ancient and outdated even for him and we know the Sith consider that they themselves have changed from back then.

Even though Yoda was wrong about the idea that Sith were doing the same as they had always done, acting from the shadows, there was nothing to suggest that he was wrong about that rule. The primary failure of the Jedi was to recognize that the SIth now had political power rather than striking from the shadows.

Knife wrote:Or as I mentioned above, Yoda was just musing that this one dead dark Jedi warrior could not have just trained himself and had to have had someone train him and that someone could still be out there. Whereas Windu muses that perhaps this dead dark Jedi might have been training someone himself and that someone could still be out there. It pretty much sets up the atmosphere that just because this one guy is dead, doesn't mean the threat isn't still out there and that the Jedi have absolute no idea where or whom, punctuated by closing the scene with Palpatine's face.

This is obviously the case, that this is their concern, but the full quote is "Always two there are, no more, no less. A master and an apprentice." 'No more, no less' implies a degree of certainty beyond that of simply knowing that Maul had to have a master or apprentice.

On the rule of two, do we know exactly when Palpantine turned Dooku? Was it before or after Maul?

Patroklos wrote:On the rule of two, do we know exactly when Palpantine turned Dooku? Was it before or after Maul?

I don't think it's said on screen, but it seems like it was after he lost Maul and realized that he would have not only a skilled ex-Jedi in Dooku, but also a convenient political leader for the Separatists.

Then Palpantine is lucky as he was able to replace what amounted to a one trick thug with a full spectrum player in the political and Force arena. Dooku was basically a mini Palpantine for the CIS.

Given how central Dooku was to the plan that was eventually pulled off and it's obvious the death of Maul was not an expected event what would things have looked like had Maul survived? The Jedi did Palpantine a solid as far as I can tell (of course Darth Maul was one dimensional garbage and was supposed to die and Lucus never thought further than that. What a worthless character).

If Maul hadn't been dropped by Obi-Wan, then Palpatine would have just murdered the fuck out of him when he became a liability. Even without accounting for his staggeringly greater abilities in every dimension of the Force, he could easily have a self-destruct mechanism on Maul's ship. There are a lot of ways to murder the hell out of a nuisance of an apprentice.

Well in TCW Maul was clearly a schemer, though not on the level of Dooku. Basically Maul might have been able to pull it off, but Palpatine would have needed to hold his hand a lot more than with Dooku IMO.

I'm not 100% on where I read it, but I believe it was indicated *somewhere* that Palpatine had been working on Dooku as he brought Maul up, and that was part of why Dooku left the Jedi Order. Dooku was his backup for the eventual time that he would have to eliminate Maul.

Just because a rule exists does not mean that the Sith would have to follow it. Seriously, Sith are by definition not inclined to do so. My own interpretation was always that Palpatine wanted to have Dooku as his political apprentice and Maul as his enforcer/muscle. Possibly even pass them off as the apprentice/master duo.

Sith is just a collection of teachings - there could be a lot of Jedi who has fallen to the dark side without following the Sith code, These "dark Jedi" is just as caperble at being a threat as any Sith is.

And to be honest the fact that Palpatine was in contact with Dooku before Dooku became Darth Tyranus (or how ever you spelt that), after all it's not odd for prominent senator or the supreme chancellor to meet with a senior member of the Jedi Order and Dooku would be an asset to Darth Sidious even as a regular darksider.

For all we know Palpatine had orginally intended for Dooku to be a mere pawn but when Maul died Palpatine was in need of a new apprentice so he made Dooku into a sith lord.

Sith is just a collection of teachings - there could be a lot of Jedi who has fallen to the dark side without following the Sith code, These "dark Jedi" is just as caperble at being a threat as any Sith is.

the real threat that the Sith repecent is that they're organizied and focused, in the legendaries most non-sith Dark Jedi are unfocused and disorganizied typically you get 1 or at most 2 trying to achive some (typically short term) goal, where as the Sith Order had numbers rivaling those of the jedi and the Sith Empire posed a signifigant threat to the Galactic Republic and the Sith were capable of waiting for the right time to strike where as most other darksiders had the patience of a 2 year old.

basically the difference of threat between a "regular" dark sider and the Sith is the differance between a lone nut with a gun and hostile nation with a full army.

Patroklos wrote:Then Palpantine is lucky as he was able to replace what amounted to a one trick thug with a full spectrum player in the political and Force arena. Dooku was basically a mini Palpantine for the CIS.

The fact that Dooku was instrumental to the final plan doesn't mean that he was instrumental to the original plan. Maul only died due to Jedi involvement, which also ruined his plans involving the Trade Federation holding onto Naboo. Perhaps his orginal plan would never have needed Dooku, relying on the brutal occupation of Naboo and possibly sending Maul to assassinate Amidala to turn the tide against corporate interests and allow something similar to the Clone Wars in that manner.

Given how central Dooku was to the plan that was eventually pulled off and it's obvious the death of Maul was not an expected event what would things have looked like had Maul survived? The Jedi did Palpantine a solid as far as I can tell (of course Darth Maul was one dimensional garbage and was supposed to die and Lucus never thought further than that. What a worthless character).

Dooku and Maul were equally useful and expendable in different ways. While Dooku was more useful politically, Maul was an ideal covet operator. If not for Maul's death, Palpatine would never have had to rely on someone like Jango Fett. Even Vader was similarly expendable, with Palpatine wishing to replace him with Luke. It is a rule of the Sith that both master and apprentice are expendable. Palpatine simply refused to believe the former half.

All three primary antagonists were expendable foils for Vader: Maul was the emotionless follower, Dooku was the fallen Jedi, and Grievous was more machine than man(even though he wasn't human)

Napoleon the Clown wrote:If Maul hadn't been dropped by Obi-Wan, then Palpatine would have just murdered the fuck out of him when he became a liability. Even without accounting for his staggeringly greater abilities in every dimension of the Force, he could easily have a self-destruct mechanism on Maul's ship. There are a lot of ways to murder the hell out of a nuisance of an apprentice.

Who says Maul would have been a liability? It could have been the case that Maul would have acted as a behind the scenes adviser for someone other than Dooku who could have been the political figurehead of the Separatist movement. This would have been better in a way as the Sith connection would have stayed hidden.

RogueIce wrote:Well in TCW Maul was clearly a schemer, though not on the level of Dooku. Basically Maul might have been able to pull it off, but Palpatine would have needed to hold his hand a lot more than with Dooku IMO.

We don't know how much Palpatine held Dooku's hand? It's possibly that much of the planning for the movement came from Palpatine, the ending to AOTC certainly implies this when Dooku and Palpatine meet. The bigger issue is that even if Maul were a successful schemer, Palpaitne would have still needed a new public face for the Separatist movement as a tattooed assassin clearly won't do.

Elheru Aran wrote:I'm not 100% on where I read it, but I believe it was indicated *somewhere* that Palpatine had been working on Dooku as he brought Maul up, and that was part of why Dooku left the Jedi Order. Dooku was his backup for the eventual time that he would have to eliminate Maul.

This could have been the case, though given that Dooku left the order after the death of Maul, Palpatine might have only seriously worked him after Maul's death. While his apprentice still lived, Palpatine only considered him a potential asset in much the same way he would later do with Anakin until Anakin successfully kills Dooku, proving his own utility(as well as his obedience, Dooku's largest liability).

Purple wrote:Just because a rule exists does not mean that the Sith would have to follow it. Seriously, Sith are by definition not inclined to do so. My own interpretation was always that Palpatine wanted to have Dooku as his political apprentice and Maul as his enforcer/muscle. Possibly even pass them off as the apprentice/master duo.

There is no indication that Palpatine ever considered violating the Rule of Two as a result of pragmatism more than tradition. It doesn't do for a master to have two apprentices that can gang up on him. That was the reason for the rule in the first place.

Anacronian wrote:Sith is just a collection of teachings - there could be a lot of Jedi who has fallen to the dark side without following the Sith code, These "dark Jedi" is just as caperble at being a threat as any Sith is.

This doesn't fit the Jedi Council's response to Maul, they considered his presence enough of a threat that the entire council mobilized to Naboo to investigate. After fighting him, Qui-Gon had no doubt that Maul was a Sith lord based on his skill. Given this fact it seems unlikely that any other various dark Jedi were a threat on the same level.

Lord Revan wrote:And to be honest the fact that Palpatine was in contact with Dooku before Dooku became Darth Tyranus (or how ever you spelt that), after all it's not odd for prominent senator or the supreme chancellor to meet with a senior member of the Jedi Order and Dooku would be an asset to Darth Sidious even as a regular darksider.

For all we know Palpatine had orginally intended for Dooku to be a mere pawn but when Maul died Palpatine was in need of a new apprentice so he made Dooku into a sith lord.

Or perhaps if Maul had lived and thus presumably Palaptine's original plan had come to fruition, there would have been no need for Dooku as the Trade Federation's brutal occupation of Naboo would have turned the tide against the corporate interests and forced a war regardless. Without the clone army, this would have then forced the Jedi to pick up the slack and be heavily weakened by attrition in much the same fashion as they were on Geonosis.

That's what makes Palpatine so effective, that regardless of what happens he is capable of making things work for him. He was actually able to take the biggest wrench in his previous plan, Qui-Gon, and use this to his benefit as Dooku was left dissatisfied with the Jedi after his former Padawan's death.

Lord Revan wrote:the real threat that the Sith repecent is that they're organizied and focused, in the legendaries most non-sith Dark Jedi are unfocused and disorganizied typically you get 1 or at most 2 trying to achive some (typically short term) goal, where as the Sith Order had numbers rivaling those of the jedi and the Sith Empire posed a signifigant threat to the Galactic Republic and the Sith were capable of waiting for the right time to strike where as most other darksiders had the patience of a 2 year old.

basically the difference of threat between a "regular" dark sider and the Sith is the differance between a lone nut with a gun and hostile nation with a full army.

Given the new continuity, the Sith have never had serious numbers in the same sense as the Jedi, though individually Sith are generally as strong as the most powerful Jedi. But being organized and patient clearly is their greatest advantage.

while in the new canon the Sith had great numbers onscreen, they way they're spoken of and reacted to in the Prequel movies both by the Jedi and Palpatine suggest that they had the capability to threaten the Galactic Republic in a coventional warfare even if there was only 2 "true sith" they would have had minions and what not in numbers to rival the Republic

And yet the "bunch of frauds" party line is exactly the one people are most likely to be divided on. It's relatively easy to convince people of the Jedi coup attempt; selected highlights from the security cameras would do the trick. It's harder to convince people the Jedi were never even significant, that they just happen to be frauds who somehow can charge into a gunfight waving a glowing sword and come out alive.

So, you're seriously proposing it's easier to overwrite thousands of years of loyalty to Republic than the thought that someone can read minds and wave laser sword while seeing the future? Pardon?

Supernatural powers are a lot harder to sell than historical records.

It is easier to convince people "do not persecute this person" than to convince them "everything written in a history book prior to twenty years ago is a lie."

And yet, you're proposing that erasing thousands of years of serving Republic is easier than claiming someone who can do card tricks was a fraud all along.

That strikes me as a bit dishonest, since the 30% membership in 1991 was obviously the result of an artificially depressed membership, caused by the Soviets trying to suppress the Church.

Hello, ever heard of Mikhail Gorbachev? Perestroika? Glasnost? Suppression? Soviet history doesn't end on Josef Stalin, you know, and even Stalin himself relaxed the suppression trying to get Church on his side in WW2.

And failed to do the same in Poland, and so on. I could reasonably argue that the USSR's methodical state atheism was for practical purposes not much different than the random slide toward secularism in other Western societies, in terms of its ability to truly remove religions feeling from the public.

It failed to do so in Poland because the society (like in Russia) was still in big part mentally in XVII century. And it was drastically different than slide in Western societies, if it wasn't, you wouldn't see various attempts to marry the 'throne' and Church in both countries going on right now

What does it matter that the Jedi are rare, if they show up regularly on the equivalent of TV

Here, have a footage of animal regularly showing up on TV:



How many people believe in them, exactly?

Elheru Aran wrote:I'm not 100% on where I read it, but I believe it was indicated *somewhere* that Palpatine had been working on Dooku as he brought Maul up, and that was part of why Dooku left the Jedi Order. Dooku was his backup for the eventual time that he would have to eliminate Maul.

That happened in the Darth Plagueis novel, but in the same novel Sidious was actually an apprentice himself at the time. He killed Darth Plagueis whilst Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were fighting Maul, I think, so Maul never really got the chance to be a proper sith apprentice. From Plaguris's point of view, Dooku was supposed to be a back-up apprentice in case Sidious died (plan A was working out how to be immortal then Sidious and Plagauris ruling as equals forever), whilst Maul was just a trained thug who would do dirty work for them. Of course this is all non-canon now.

jwl wrote:That happened in the Darth Plagueis novel, but in the same novel Sidious was actually an apprentice himself at the time. He killed Darth Plagueis whilst Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were fighting Maul, I think, so Maul never really got the chance to be a proper sith apprentice. From Plaguris's point of view, Dooku was supposed to be a back-up apprentice in case Sidious died (plan A was working out how to be immortal then Sidious and Plagauris ruling as equals forever), whilst Maul was just a trained thug who would do dirty work for them. Of course this is all non-canon now.

Huh? What?

I quit EU much earlier than that, but how on Earth they reconciled that with dozens of works where Palpatine was the main boss and Darth Maul full Sith Lord (which was backed by movies, otherwise Qui Gon wouldn't have doubts if it was apprentice or master)?

I also wonder why Maul's demoted mental capabilities are so popular, it seems. He not only found Amidala in remarkably short time, he also had technical aptitude bested only by Darth Vader among force users, if that. Was his EU portrayal "smart, but quiet" really so rare?

Irbis wrote:

jwl wrote:That happened in the Darth Plagueis novel, but in the same novel Sidious was actually an apprentice himself at the time. He killed Darth Plagueis whilst Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were fighting Maul, I think, so Maul never really got the chance to be a proper sith apprentice. From Plaguris's point of view, Dooku was supposed to be a back-up apprentice in case Sidious died (plan A was working out how to be immortal then Sidious and Plagauris ruling as equals forever), whilst Maul was just a trained thug who would do dirty work for them. Of course this is all non-canon now.

Huh? What?

I quit EU much earlier than that, but how on Earth they reconciled that with dozens of works where Palpatine was the main boss and Darth Maul full Sith Lord (which was backed by movies, otherwise Qui Gon wouldn't have doubts if it was apprentice or master)?

I also wonder why Maul's demoted mental capabilities are so popular, it seems. He not only found Amidala in remarkably short time, he also had technical aptitude bested only by Darth Vader among force users, if that. Was his EU portrayal "smart, but quiet" really so rare?

By "trained thug" I don't mean that he was shown to be stupid, just that he wasn't seen (by Plagueis, at least) as a proper sith lord, just a tool to get work done (he was however, made to look like an apprentice precisely to fool people like qui-gon). His main personality problem in that book was that he was immensely cocky and thought he could beat anything hand-to-hand. Also, bear in mind I may be just remembering the book wrong, I don't have it in fornt of me.

jwl wrote:By "trained thug" I don't mean that he was shown to be stupid, just that he wasn't seen (by Plagueis, at least) as a proper sith lord, just a tool to get work done (he was however, made to look like an apprentice precisely to fool people like qui-gon).

Oh, okay.

Still, that didn't worked very well then:

QUI-GON : ...my only conclusion can be that it was a Sith Lord.

Even out of universe stage directions in script explicitly call Maul a Sith Lord, so I can't help but wonder who thought that retcon was a good idea. Even if you don't like Maul, it shifts whole world building context as it lessens experienced Jedi masters.

His main personality problem in that book was that he was immensely cocky and thought he could beat anything hand-to-hand.

Well, cocky, yes, but it makes sense for Sith Lord. For some sort of Dark Jedi bouncer, not so much.

Irbis wrote:Even out of universe stage directions in script explicitly call Maul a Sith Lord, so I can't help but wonder who thought that retcon was a good idea. Even if you don't like Maul, it shifts whole world building context as it lessens experienced Jedi masters.

This is why it is good riddance to the EU's demise. I just sometimes wish the Clone Wars went with it. Besides, who didn't like Maul

Why couldn't the EU simply tell new stories that don't try and change the meaning of the films or be connected to them. When one heard about Palpatine killing Plagueis in ROTS*, would anyone have thought it took place after Maul became Palpatine's apprentice? In the novel it in fact took place after Maul had already been killed. It's not as bad as IG-88's Death Star, but it is still hardly good.

* That concept as described would have also likely better fit a short story than entire novel.

Actually, it was never stated that Palpatine killed Plagueis in the film Revenge of the Sith.

As I said, it was during obi-wan and qui-gon's fight with maul. In the phantom menace, not revenge of the sith.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Actually, it was never stated that Palpatine killed Plagueis in the film Revenge of the Sith.

yeah it's not stated out-right but look at Palpatine when he says it, it's pretty clear it's not some "old legend" he is speaking of.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Actually, it was never stated that Palpatine killed Plagueis in the film Revenge of the Sith.

It was never stated, but it was all over Palpatine's face and voice. Do you need a brass band?

QUI-GON : ...my only conclusion can be that it was a Sith Lord.

Even out of universe stage directions in script explicitly call Maul a Sith Lord, so I can't help but wonder who thought that retcon was a good idea. Even if you don't like Maul, it shifts whole world building context as it lessens experienced Jedi masters.

Even Darth Maul thought he was Darth Maul. If he is only ever referred to as Darth Maul on screen, there is no reason to call him anything else in the script. Sidious gave him the title behind his masters back. Asajj Ventriss called herself Sith when she was Dooku's not-so-secret minion. Darth Vader had secret and not-so-secret apprentices and enforcers who he motivated with promises of Elevation too. The Emperor had backup apprentices in case he had to kill Vader etc. It is not uncommon practice.

Even outside the EU it is pretty obvious what they are doing. Palpatine manipulated Anakin for decades, just waiting for Dooku to die. Hell, I like to speculate that Palpatine arranged the murder of his mother.

As a strategy it works pretty well. Think about it. The actual sith lords send out their subordinate dark jedi minions to perform the dirty work of their byzantine plots. They are directed and thus appear organized. They might even be given or take on the title Darth, explicitly for the purpose of fooling the Jedi, who have not found an actual Sith Lord in over a thousand years, and thus have no institutional memory of what one looks like.

They have some information on the Rule of Two that is as old as Yoda, so they assume that when they found someone well-trained in jedi combat that they did not train themselves that this person must be a Sith Lord, particularly because he calls himself Darth to throw them off if captured or if intel leaks.

The Jedi are themselves a Yodinic Gerontocracy, and so institutionally stagnated that they are incapable of questioning their own premises or *heaven forbid* Yoda's Wisdom.

The minions protect and isolate the apprentice, who everyone assumes is the master, while the master hangs out in the background isolated from detection with a backup apprentice of his or her own.

Alyrium Denryle wrote:As a strategy it works pretty well. Think about it. The actual sith lords send out their subordinate dark jedi minions to perform the dirty work of their byzantine plots. They are directed and thus appear organized. They might even be given or take on the title Darth, explicitly for the purpose of fooling the Jedi, who have not found an actual Sith Lord in over a thousand years, and thus have no institutional memory of what one looks like.

They have some information on the Rule of Two that is as old as Yoda, so they assume that when they found someone well-trained in jedi combat that they did not train themselves that this person must be a Sith Lord, particularly because he calls himself Darth to throw them off if captured or if intel leaks.

The Jedi are themselves a Yodinic Gerontocracy, and so institutionally stagnated that they are incapable of questioning their own premises or *heaven forbid* Yoda's Wisdom.

The minions protect and isolate the apprentice, who everyone assumes is the master, while the master hangs out in the background isolated from detection with a backup apprentice of his or her own.

Well with the case of Starkiller most of this strategy doesn't hold, since it's pretty obvious that Vader is subordinate to someone (and obi-wan knew about sidious anyway).

Well with the case of Starkiller most of this strategy doesn't hold, since it's pretty obvious that Vader is subordinate to someone (and obi-wan knew about sidious anyway).

Except that the whole "always better to risk the life of a disposable minion than my own neck, and I may need help to gank my own master/defend against my upstart apprentice" bit still holds.