UKRAINE WAR - 1 YEAR AND GOING.

[LaCroix]

Yeah, China is very obviously keeping out of this, apart from grabbing ressources and russia's puppets, and some posturing about topis that could be second-hand applied to them, but Russiabots are living in a alternative facts universe.

Right now, Russiabots are constantly going "West is going to sh*t BRICS", "BRICS will smash western hegemony", "BRICS up and coming" these days...

BRICS is old news, and going nowhere very slowly - big chance Russia, China and India will find common ground on anything. But recently, India had a deal that it will trade in Rupies with Malaysia (Surprise - big country lays down law on small country, not bothering to use a third party currency between them - again.. surpise) , and that somehow means that the dollar and euro are in trouble or something, rah-rah...

[Lord Revan]

Instead of standing together with Russia, China seems to become more and more friendly with west as the conflict drags on granted without totally cutting ties with Russia but it's quite clear which way China is leaning and it ain't Russia.

As i said it before, China is probably using this to purchase cheap resources to stockpile. Beyond that, I think they see that Russia (under it's current administration) is a politically lost cause.

China is getting more and more about profit and advancement. Wars waste resources, and kill your customer base.
After all, dead people can't buy things.

Also China needs the western markets more then they need China so pissing off the west in favor of Russia would kill their profits and China doesn't want that at all.

[Broomstick]

I really can't see how anyone who has paid attention how China has behaved publicly here would think their going "lets smash the west *insert evil laugh*" when they're seemed to be going "WTF Russia?! We had this nice thing where everyone profited and you had to pull this shit and ruin everything!"

Instead of standing together with Russia, China seems to become more and more friendly with west as the conflict drags on granted without totally cutting ties with Russia but it's quite clear which way China is leaning and it ain't Russia.

China isn't on the side of anyone but China. No statement is made without first checking to see which way the wind is blowing that day. They will happily play both ends against the middle, set others against each other, and wait to reap the spoils left when two adversaries are done tearing each other down.

[Batman]

So China behaves like every other country on the planet?

[Rogue 9]

New York Times

Ukraine War Plans Leak Prompts Pentagon Investigation

Helene Cooper, Eric Schmitt

Classified documents detailing secret American and NATO plans have appeared on Twitter and Telegram.

April 6, 2023 Updated 6:44 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON — Classified war documents detailing secret American and NATO plans for building up the Ukrainian military ahead of a planned offensive against Russia were posted this week on social media channels, senior Biden administration officials said.

The Pentagon is investigating who may have been behind the leak of the documents, which appeared on Twitter and on Telegram, a platform with more than half a billion users that is widely available in Russia.

Military analysts said the documents appear to have been modified in certain parts from their original format, overstating American estimates of Ukrainian war dead and understating estimates of Russian troops killed.

The modifications could point to an effort of disinformation by Moscow, the analysts said. But the disclosures in the original documents, which appear as photographs of charts of anticipated weapons deliveries, troop and battalion strengths, and other plans, represents a significant breach of American intelligence in the effort to aid Ukraine.

Biden officials were working to get them deleted but had not, as of Thursday evening, succeeded.

“We are aware of the reports of social media posts and the department is reviewing the matter,” said Sabrina Singh, the deputy press secretary at the Pentagon.

The documents do not provide specific battle plans, like how, when, and where Ukraine intends to launch its offensive. And because the documents are five weeks old, they offer a snapshot of time — the American and Ukrainian view, as of March 1, of what Ukrainian troops might need for the campaign.

To the trained eye of a Russian war planner, field general or intelligence analyst, however, the documents no doubt offer many tantalizing clues. The documents mention, for instance, the expenditure rate of HIMARS — American-supplied High Mobility Artillery Rocket System munitions, which can launch attacks against targets like ammunition dumps, infrastructure and concentrations of troops, from a distance. The Pentagon has not said publicly how fast Ukrainian troops are using the HIMARs munitions; the documents do.

It was unclear how the documents ended up on social media. But pro-Russian government channels have been sharing and circulating the briefing slides, military analysts said.

The analysts warned that documents released by Russian sources could be selectively altered to present the Kremlin’s disinformation.

“Whether these documents are authentic or not, people should take care with anything released by Russian sources,” said Michael Kofman, the director of Russian studies at CNA, a research institute in Arlington, Va.

One of the slides said 16,000 to 17,500 Russian soldiers had been killed while Ukraine had suffered as many as 71,500 troop deaths. The Pentagon and other analysts have estimated that Russia has suffered far more casualties, and that closer to 200,000 soldiers on each side had been killed or wounded.

Nonetheless, analysts said parts of the documents appeared authentic and would provide Russia with valuable information such as the timetables for the delivery of weapons and troops, Ukrainian troop buildup numbers and other military details.

A document labeled “top secret” offers the “Status of the Conflict as of 1 Mar.” On that day, Ukrainian officials were at an American base in Weisbaden, Germany, for war game sessions, and a day later, Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Gen. Christopher Cavoli, the supreme allied commander for Europe, visited the sessions.

Another document includes columns that list Ukrainian troop units, equipment and training, with schedules for January through April. The document contains a summary of 12 combat brigades that are being assembled, with nine of them apparently being trained and supplied by the United States and other NATO allies. Of those nine brigades, the documents said that six would be ready by March 31 and the rest by April 30. A Ukrainian brigade has about 4,000 to 5,000 soldiers, analysts said.

The document said that equipment delivery times would affect training and readiness to meet the timeline. Total equipment needed for nine brigades, the document said, was more than 250 tanks and more than 350 mechanized vehicles.

The leak is the first Russian intelligence breakthrough that has been made public since the war began. Throughout the war, the United States has provided Ukraine with information on command posts, ammunition depots and other key nodes in the Russian military lines. Such real-time intelligence has allowed the Ukrainians to target Russian forces, kill senior generals and force ammunition supplies to be moved farther from the Russian front lines, though U.S. officials say Ukraine has played the decisive role in planning and execution of those strikes.

But early on during the war, Ukrainian officials were hesitant about sharing their battle plans with the United States, for fear of leaks, American and European officials said. As recently as last summer, American intelligence officials said they often had a better understanding of Russia’s military plans than of Ukraine’s.

The intelligence sharing between Ukraine and the United States loosened up considerably last fall, and the two countries have been working closely on options for a Ukrainian offensive.

Thomas Gibbons-Neff contributed reporting.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

New York Times

Ukraine War Plans Leak Prompts Pentagon Investigation

Helene Cooper, Eric Schmitt

Classified documents detailing secret American and NATO plans have appeared on Twitter and Telegram.

April 6, 2023 Updated 6:44 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON — Classified war documents detailing secret American and NATO plans for building up the Ukrainian military ahead of a planned offensive against Russia were posted this week on social media channels, senior Biden administration officials said.

The Pentagon is investigating who may have been behind the leak of the documents, which appeared on Twitter and on Telegram, a platform with more than half a billion users that is widely available in Russia.

Military analysts said the documents appear to have been modified in certain parts from their original format, overstating American estimates of Ukrainian war dead and understating estimates of Russian troops killed.

The modifications could point to an effort of disinformation by Moscow, the analysts said. But the disclosures in the original documents, which appear as photographs of charts of anticipated weapons deliveries, troop and battalion strengths, and other plans, represents a significant breach of American intelligence in the effort to aid Ukraine.

Biden officials were working to get them deleted but had not, as of Thursday evening, succeeded.

“We are aware of the reports of social media posts and the department is reviewing the matter,” said Sabrina Singh, the deputy press secretary at the Pentagon.

The documents do not provide specific battle plans, like how, when, and where Ukraine intends to launch its offensive. And because the documents are five weeks old, they offer a snapshot of time — the American and Ukrainian view, as of March 1, of what Ukrainian troops might need for the campaign.

To the trained eye of a Russian war planner, field general or intelligence analyst, however, the documents no doubt offer many tantalizing clues. The documents mention, for instance, the expenditure rate of HIMARS — American-supplied High Mobility Artillery Rocket System munitions, which can launch attacks against targets like ammunition dumps, infrastructure and concentrations of troops, from a distance. The Pentagon has not said publicly how fast Ukrainian troops are using the HIMARs munitions; the documents do.

It was unclear how the documents ended up on social media. But pro-Russian government channels have been sharing and circulating the briefing slides, military analysts said.

The analysts warned that documents released by Russian sources could be selectively altered to present the Kremlin’s disinformation.

“Whether these documents are authentic or not, people should take care with anything released by Russian sources,” said Michael Kofman, the director of Russian studies at CNA, a research institute in Arlington, Va.

One of the slides said 16,000 to 17,500 Russian soldiers had been killed while Ukraine had suffered as many as 71,500 troop deaths. The Pentagon and other analysts have estimated that Russia has suffered far more casualties, and that closer to 200,000 soldiers on each side had been killed or wounded.

Nonetheless, analysts said parts of the documents appeared authentic and would provide Russia with valuable information such as the timetables for the delivery of weapons and troops, Ukrainian troop buildup numbers and other military details.

A document labeled “top secret” offers the “Status of the Conflict as of 1 Mar.” On that day, Ukrainian officials were at an American base in Weisbaden, Germany, for war game sessions, and a day later, Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Gen. Christopher Cavoli, the supreme allied commander for Europe, visited the sessions.

Another document includes columns that list Ukrainian troop units, equipment and training, with schedules for January through April. The document contains a summary of 12 combat brigades that are being assembled, with nine of them apparently being trained and supplied by the United States and other NATO allies. Of those nine brigades, the documents said that six would be ready by March 31 and the rest by April 30. A Ukrainian brigade has about 4,000 to 5,000 soldiers, analysts said.

The document said that equipment delivery times would affect training and readiness to meet the timeline. Total equipment needed for nine brigades, the document said, was more than 250 tanks and more than 350 mechanized vehicles.

The leak is the first Russian intelligence breakthrough that has been made public since the war began. Throughout the war, the United States has provided Ukraine with information on command posts, ammunition depots and other key nodes in the Russian military lines. Such real-time intelligence has allowed the Ukrainians to target Russian forces, kill senior generals and force ammunition supplies to be moved farther from the Russian front lines, though U.S. officials say Ukraine has played the decisive role in planning and execution of those strikes.

But early on during the war, Ukrainian officials were hesitant about sharing their battle plans with the United States, for fear of leaks, American and European officials said. As recently as last summer, American intelligence officials said they often had a better understanding of Russia’s military plans than of Ukraine’s.

The intelligence sharing between Ukraine and the United States loosened up considerably last fall, and the two countries have been working closely on options for a Ukrainian offensive.

Thomas Gibbons-Neff contributed reporting.

Fuck, can't these people keep anything locked up?

[Lord Revan]

I really can't see how anyone who has paid attention how China has behaved publicly here would think their going "lets smash the west *insert evil laugh*" when they're seemed to be going "WTF Russia?! We had this nice thing where everyone profited and you had to pull this shit and ruin everything!"

Instead of standing together with Russia, China seems to become more and more friendly with west as the conflict drags on granted without totally cutting ties with Russia but it's quite clear which way China is leaning and it ain't Russia.

China isn't on the side of anyone but China. No statement is made without first checking to see which way the wind is blowing that day. They will happily play both ends against the middle, set others against each other, and wait to reap the spoils left when two adversaries are done tearing each other down.

Obviously but they've also noticed that recently the wind has been blowing very strongly west, they're not stupid after all and when your choices are "help Russia's attempts at global hegemony and maybe gain something if they a) remember you helped b) don't see you as threat to said hegemony and that's assuming the whole thing isn't just a big waste of money and materials, also no matter what your trade with western countries will suffer" or "Stay out of the conflict as much as possible and keep trading with the western countries like nothing is different" it's not hard to see which option China picked.

[GrosseAdmiralFox]

It should be noted that China's geopolitical policy is 'don't cause another inter-dynasty period' above all else. Pissing off the US right now? Most likely going to cause that situation. As I said before, in Bejing's halls of power, the top leaders are debating if they will pull a Caesar on Russia and get their lands in Siberia back or work with Russia. Right now, it's in a holding pattern but leaning on the former rather than the latter, and they know they can't do the latter due to their inability on the geopolitical stage (the USN literally can just sit in one straight and literally pull a Japan on China).

[Broomstick]

So China behaves like every other country on the planet?

Yes, only more so.

[Ralin]

Obviously but they've also noticed that recently the wind has been blowing very strongly west, they're not stupid after all and when your choices are "help Russia's attempts at global hegemony and maybe gain something if they a) remember you helped b) don't see you as threat to said hegemony and that's assuming the whole thing isn't just a big waste of money and materials, also no matter what your trade with western countries will suffer" or "Stay out of the conflict as much as possible and keep trading with the western countries like nothing is different" it's not hard to see which option China picked.

Chen Weihua, the China Daily bureau chief for the EU, made a tweet last year to the effect that when you see two friends fighting you don't start beating on whichever one you think started it, you try to get them to calm down the fuck down. And speculation, but I've always felt that was probably the best description I've heard of both his and Xi Jinping's genuine feelings on the subject.

[Broomstick]

China might see the US and Russia as customers. I don't think nations have actual friends.

[Lord Revan]

China might see the US and Russia as customers. I don't think nations have actual friends.

Nordic countries have traditionally seen each other as "friends" for most of the 20th and 21st centuries

[Broomstick]

Excellent - but an exception to the rule that countries only have their own self interests at heart.

I'm sure there are numerous countries that have a few "friends", it's not completely unknown, but I'm not aware of China having any.

[ralfy]

The Global South is answering back:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/30/ukraine ... world.html

And those who read beyond the headlines will realize that it's been about the U.S. all along. That is, one described as a warmonger by its most liberal President:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19 ... the-world/

and engaged in mayhem for decades:

and that's notable because the ones who were affected by that were members of the same Global South:

https://sites.evergreen.edu/zoltan/interventions/

Now, Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa, plus over forty countries, are slowly moving away from the dollar and from U.S. influence. This is bad news for the U.S. because the only way it can continue decades of heavy borrowing and spending

https://seekingalpha.com/article/164163 ... rs-of-debt



is global dependence on the dollar.

In short, a multipolar world is emerging, and the U.S. and European countries will have to learn to work with it. We are already seeing this with recent news about Japan buying oil from Russia and France selling gas to China in exchange for yuans.

[Broomstick]

More of the same bullshit from you, and if the rumors about you being restricted/banned from posting at another (at least one) forum I expect we'll be seeing more of your fuckface around here.

I have explained to you not one but twice (once here and once at another board) why BRICS is very much NOT the "global south" but you persist in vomiting that lie or delusion (not sure which - are you deliberately spouting falsehoods or are you really that stupid?) Seriously, how fucking stupid do you have to be, or lacking in basic geographic awareness, that you put Russia, China, and India in the "global south"? Perhaps it is literal blindness such that you have never been able to regard a globe of the world but they make braille maps and the blind people I've known also grasp basic geography so that can't be the reason.

But, because I can always use another chew toy, here we go:

The Global South is answering back:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/30/ukraine ... world.html

I'm going to try to keep this to short, declarative sentences and/or bullet points to help your comprehension because at this point I'm still not sure whether this is mental deficiency or deliberate propaganda.

-The article does not define "leaning towards Russia"
- An "uptick" from 25 to 36 nations in this un-defined state of "leaning towards Russia is not, considered against a backdrop of 195 nations recognized by the UN, of that much importance.
- Nations like Mali and Burkino Faso are not going to be helpful allies of Russia.
- Including Turkey among the Russia-leaning or newly neutral towards Russian nations is bizarre.
---Turkey is a member of NATO.
---Turkey just made the deciding vote to admit Finland to NATO

And those who read beyond the headlines will realize that it's been about the U.S. all along. That is, one described as a warmonger by its most liberal President:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19 ... the-world/

That article is from 2019.

Let's look at this statement from President Carter from February 24, 2022:

Russia’s unprovoked attack on Ukraine using military and cyber weapons violates international law and the fundamental human rights of the Ukrainian people. I condemn this unjust assault on the sovereignty of Ukraine that threatens security in Europe and the entire world, and I call on President Putin to halt all military action and restore peace. The United States and its allies must stand with the people of Ukraine in support of their right to peace, security, and self-determination.

So even your example of a liberal, peace-loving President supports Ukraine.

Actually, in the US it's the liberals who are more supportive of Ukraine and the right wing/conservatives that want to suck Putin's dick like you do.

and engaged in mayhem for decades:

and that's notable because the ones who were affected by that were members of the same Global South:

https://sites.evergreen.edu/zoltan/interventions/

What bizarre cherry-picking

- Why does he only go back to 1890? That skips all sort of sketchy things done at earlier dates, or was this just the first site on a google search that even vaguely supported your position?
- This is a mix of foreign and internal "interventions", including strike-breaking
- Also includes WWII as a "foreign intervention" which is just fucking bizarre unless you think we should have just kowtowed to Japan after Pearl Harbor
- Includes deployment of military jets during 9/11 as a "military intervention" which, again, is just fucking bizarre unless you assert the US has no right to self defense in the midst of what is clearly an attack.

So... I reject your cite as support for your position.

Now, Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa, plus over forty countries, are slowly moving away from the dollar and from U.S. influence.

Sorry, asshole, BRICS is still just "Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa", none of those other countries are members, and they may never be.

As I have said before - any other nation joining will be very very much a junior member to Russia and China. This is not the rise of a "global south", it's an alliance dominated by Northern powers who will happily exploit any junior members to the extent that they can get away with.

This is bad news for the U.S. because the only way it can continue decades of heavy borrowing and spending

https://seekingalpha.com/article/164163 ... rs-of-debt

is global dependence on the dollar.

And yet the dollar remains the global reserve currency. Except for Russia - how's that actually working out for them?

In short, a multipolar world is emerging, and the U.S. and European countries will have to learn to work with it. We are already seeing this with recent news about Japan buying oil from Russia and France selling gas to China in exchange for yuans.

And yet no one wants to deal in roubles any more....

There was always going to be an emerging multipolar world as other nations caught up to the US. That doesn't mean the US is going to become irrelevant or collapse.

Sorry to disappoint your dreams of the US cratering and dictators taking over the world, but that is not the current situation.

So, a few questions for you, Ralfy boy:

1) Are you really this stupid or on Putin's payroll?

2) If the latter, how much are you being paid?

3) What currency are you being paid in?

And finally, thank you for posting on StarDestroyer.net where I can openly call you a Putin-felching troll.

[Lord Revan]

What's more important about Turkey making that final vote allowing us into NATO, it was never case of being pro-Russian to delay it, but rather boosting their own ego and it's telling that both Hungary and Turkey delivered the acceptance paperwork in record time to Washington (DC), faster in fact then the government here suspected it would happen.

If Turkey truly was a pro-Russian, anti-US country as Ralfy seems to suggest all they would have had to do is keep saying "no" (they already had said they didn't see any real reason why Finland shouldn't join and were just dragging the process out for attention) or drag their feet at getting the paperwork delivered, neither which did happen.

[Lord Revan]

Ghetto EDIT:New Delhi (capital of India) is North of Miami at 28 degrees north (well not exactly not close enough) to 26 degrees north of Miami (again not exact coordinates but close enough), while we're at it Moscow is at 55 degrees North and Beijing is at 40 degrees North, while Washington is at 39 degrees North. Which one these countries was suppose to be northern one again?

People tend to forget just how far south USA actually is or that matter forget how far north China is, there's no excusing thinking Russia as Southern state though since Moscow is further North the Ottawa and Canada is often considered the "Frozen North" by people in USA (not mention if you had give an example of country that's cold and frozen even here in Finland, Russia is a common example, in fact we saying that something "kylmää ku ryssän helvetissä" roughly translating as "is as cold as in Russian hell" (or "is as cold as in hell for Russians" depending how you want to say it).


Oh just to say coordinates work so that higher the number further up north you are with the 0 point for north/south axis being at equator

EDIT:and faking those coordinates would be stupid as anyone with a map could show you wrong so while taken from Wikipedia they should be close enough to accurate.

[Ralin]

Global South is not a strictly geographical term as I understand it, and glancing at the Wikipedia article it seems that while it may be a misnomer his use of it is correct.

And yet the dollar remains the global reserve currency. Except for Russia - how's that actually working out for them?

And yet no one wants to deal in roubles any more....

I’m not sure exactly what your point is here other than that the US has not ceased to be the global reserve currency at this point in time (which is true), but if that does change it presumably won’t happen out of nowhere. And it seems worth pointing out that the US dollar losing that position does not necessarily require some other currency replacing it, though that would bring its own set of issues for complicated finance-y reasons.

[LadyTevar]

Banned the Ralfy-bot
Sorry folks, my fault for approving his first post, which actually made sense.

[bilateralrope]

Global South is not a strictly geographical term as I understand it, and glancing at the Wikipedia article it seems that while it may be a misnomer his use of it is correct.

One look at the first picture there makes me laugh a bit at anyone talking latitudes of US cities when trying to argue against the global north/south divide.

A bit of a skim over that page and I see that the global north/south naming comes from an attempt to get away from dividing countries into the first/third world. They should have gone with better names if they wanted to be understood by the general public.

[Lord Revan]

Global South is not a strictly geographical term as I understand it, and glancing at the Wikipedia article it seems that while it may be a misnomer his use of it is correct.

One look at the first picture there makes me laugh a bit at anyone talking latitudes of US cities when trying to argue against the global north/south divide.

A bit of a skim over that page and I see that the global north/south naming comes from an attempt to get away from dividing countries into the first/third world. They should have gone with better names if they wanted to be understood by the general public.

I had never heard of that term so I took the meaning to be literal, in that sense those latitudes do matter as it shows you can't even say those countries are south of USA as they ain't and case of Russia (though it's marked as global north in that map) mostly north of USA in total. Yes I stand corrected in the Global South term which I hadn't heard before.

[Broomstick]

Hey, I get that there are nations that don't want to be part of a US/Western hegemony. It should be their choice. And for those purposes calling one of those groups "BRICS" works just as well as "NATO" or "The West". Nothing wrong with that, either. But calling an alliance dominated by nations located in the northern hemisphere, and quite far north at that, "the Global South" is bullshit. Call it BRICS.

[Broomstick]

Banned the Ralfy-bot
Sorry folks, my fault for approving his first post, which actually made sense.

He did the exact same thing at the other forum - a few reasonable posts to start then into troll mode. Also same user name and avatar motif. Almost exact same text and links, too! Definitely some copy-paste going on. Wonder how many other places he's plagued?

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Banned the Ralfy-bot
Sorry folks, my fault for approving his first post, which actually made sense.

He did the exact same thing at the other forum - a few reasonable posts to start then into troll mode. Also same user name and avatar motif. Almost exact same text and links, too! Definitely some copy-paste going on. Wonder how many other places he's plagued?

Probably a co-incidence but some asshole on a Facebook game uses the same Vault Boy avatar as this guy. I noticed the graph in his post only goes up to 2009, not exactly current when it's 14 years out of date

[Rogue 9]

Banned the Ralfy-bot
Sorry folks, my fault for approving his first post, which actually made sense.

He did the exact same thing at the other forum - a few reasonable posts to start then into troll mode. Also same user name and avatar motif. Almost exact same text and links, too! Definitely some copy-paste going on. Wonder how many other places he's plagued?

Probably a co-incidence but some asshole on a Facebook game uses the same Vault Boy avatar as this guy. I noticed the graph in his post only goes up to 2009, not exactly current when it's 14 years out of date

To be fair to him (not that his overall point isn't bullshit), while the graph is out of date the trend did continue. Total debt, public and private, in the United States is currently north of 700% of GDP according to CEIC data. The Federal Reserve only measures public debt, which is a small portion of that total, but still over 100% of GDP, with its highest point in the second quarter of 2020 and declining since.