Darth Wong's Israel bashing

[Vympel]

Maybe the Israeli soldiers should be issued rocks to throw back?

LOL. Perhaps

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Sure,as everyone knows rocks are currently issued as standard anti infantry and antitank weapons in any serious army of the world.
Marina,we are not in the stone age anymore,in case you missed that.

Obsidian-studded wooden broadswords proved massively lethal against the Spanish when used in the right conditions by the Aztecs. One blow could chop the head of a horse off. That was hardly the stone age.

Likewise, getting struck in the head by a brick is easily fatal blunt-force trauma.

The Israelis have suffered numberous casualties in this fashion, and several fatalities. They're totally justified in responding with firing rubber bullets firstly - which are not 100% effective in avoiding injuries, and so can injure or even in odd circumstances, kill, which is where some of the injuries come from - And in other circumstances where it is necessary for extraction, engaging with live ammunition.

Furthermore, the terrorist tactic of using stone-throwers, especially youths, as crowds to conceal armed men sniping on Israeli troops, sometimes again necessitates using live ammunition to engage those men in a fashion which turns those crowds into potential collateral damage.

That's War, and, to be blunt about it, the history of Israel still hasn't wracked up as many Muslim civilian casualties as a single day in WWII could produce; what's the big deal? A lot of these people even intentionally get in the way or engage in provocative acts, which is a heck of a lot more than you could say for the denizens of Hamburg or Dresden.

[Next of Kin]

Under the Geneva Convention of '49, someone in territory occupied by a belligerent, who is not in uniform or wearing some sort of identifying marker, differentiating them from the civilian populace, and who is using a weapon against an enemy soldier, can be summarily executed. There's no age limitation against this.

Considering that rocks have traditionally been military weapons, there's legally nothing wrong with the Israeli response to rock throwing being wholesale slaughter of the rock-throwers.

Yes, a ten year old can generate a great deal of force throwing a rock at a soldier as we all know! Perhaps some of these palestinian children should be recruited into baseball due to their 90mph rock throwing arms!

[Admiral Piett]

Obsidian-studded wooden broadswords

Which is precisely what the palestinians use,right?

Likewise, getting struck in the head by a brick is easily fatal blunt-force trauma.

Maybe one of the reasons for why soldiers and policemen on riot control duties are issued with helmets in first place

The Israelis have suffered numberous casualties in this fashion

The same goes for the police forces in the western countries.But typically shooting on the mob with live ammo is not a common practice.

They're totally justified in responding with firing rubber bullets firstly - which are not 100% effective in avoiding injuries, and so can injure or even in odd circumstances, kill, which is where some of the injuries come from - And in other circumstances where it is necessary for extraction, engaging with live ammunition.

Furthermore, the terrorist tactic of using stone-throwers, especially youths, as crowds to conceal armed men sniping on Israeli troops, sometimes again necessitates using live ammunition to engage those men in a fashion which turns those crowds into potential collateral damage.

No problem with that.Unfortunately it is not like people are killed only in the circumstances described above.

what's the big deal?

Well,then 3500 dead are the equivalent of little more than six months of car accidents in Italy.What is the big deal with the 11/9?
Sorry Marina,the USA does not have the monopoly of establishing what it is important and what is not.The Palestinian issue is important in the middle east.You may accuse the arab countries of being hypocrite,since they have not raised a fist when Saddam gased the kurds,and you would be correct.But in the Middle East it is universally considered an important issue,so it is an important issue when dealing with the Middle East.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

No problem with that.Unfortunately it is not like people are killed only in the circumstances described above.

Well, between getting surrounded by a crowd and needing to be extricated, or finding hostile fire in that crowd in addition to the rocks, I think we'd cover most of the incidents where those unarmed (except rocks, and counting incendiaries as weapons), have been killed by soldiers and police, and no investigations made.

Remember that a fair number of the Palestinian civilians who get murdered that they make a big deal out of are killed by the settlers, not the IDF its self.

Also, the reporting on this issue can be a bit nebulous, or more precisely vague, as to the details of incidents. I'd really like to see the IDF's ROE; then we'd know when they tell their own troops to shoot.

what's the big deal?

Well,then 3500 dead are the equivalent of little more than six months of car accidents in Italy.What is the big deal with the 11/9?[/quote]


It happened in less than six hours, instead of over six months, and was even more importantly intentional instead of accidental?

Sure, Americans are pathetic at times about making things with minor death tolls into a big deal when bus plunges and soccer riots in a third world country - or a fireworks explosion in Mexico - kill far more in an day or an instant; but 9/11 was extremely severe even by those standards, considering the time scale, and was moreover casus belli against any funding States.

[Admiral Piett]

Sure, Americans are pathetic at times about making things with minor death tolls into a big deal when bus plunges and soccer riots in a third world country - or a fireworks explosion in Mexico - kill far more in an day or an instant; but 9/11 was extremely severe even by those standards, considering the time scale, and was moreover casus belli against any funding States.

The point is not if 9/11 was severe or not.The point is that you cannot put the palestinian question under the carpet only because it is convenient for the USA to do so.It is an important issue in the arab world,thus it is an important issue when dealing with the Middle East.

[Darth Wong]

Marina, don't quote the Geneva Convention. It also prohibits the use of indiscriminate weapons against the population of an occupied territory ... such as the use of rockets against civilian buildings in which "suspected terrorists are known to reside". Israel can't shrug off civilian "collateral damage" from such attacks and still claim to respect the rules of the Geneva Convention, even if there really are terrorists living in those buildings.

Or, to put it another way, they don't use rocket attacks against apartment buildings in the rest of Israel when a Palestinian terrorist is suspected to be there, do they? They consider Arab life to be worth less.

[0.1]

Wong is right on in this case. The U.S. should withdraw support for Israel, if it weren't for the U.S. shoring them up now, Israel wouldn't have lasted this long. Heck, Israel might have collapsed during 1973 if it weren't for the U.S., oh wait, forgot, they had nukes back then, and if the U.S. didn't offer support, it might have turned ugly.

But heck, Israel is just another annoying democracy, give me the standard Arab regime any day, nothing beats a theocracy or a monarchy or a dictatorship. You can make up your own laws as you go... and may be power corrupts, but if you think about it, absolute power is actually pretty cool. But to be fair, Israel should just disarm, wonder what would happen immediately after that.

[Falcon]

They'd die?

[Darth Wong]

I love the way people dig their heels in on this subject. Frankly, no genuinely new information or arguments have been introduced in this thread for many pages now. Everyone's dug in their heels and we're just hurling the same arguments at one another ad nauseum.

I'm sure most people don't even bother reading through the fucking 21 pages that lead up to this; they just leap in, make arguments which have already been made 10 times earlier, and start the whole goddamned merry-go-round up again.

I would close the thread, but then some asshole would inevitably accuse me of being some kind of intellectual dictator who can't stand to hear dissent (as if 21 pages isn't enough).

[beyond hope]

Speaking as one of the contributors to The Thread That Would Not Die, I'd say go ahead and close this thing before it needs a dedicated hard drive on the server. Tricky Dick and his two pals haven't been back in a while to contribute to any of the "Darth Wong is an evil Jew-basher" threads that they started, so they can go ahead and start from square one if they ever resurface.

[fennyCWAL]

Well, I might as well put my 2 cents in. I suppotr Israel. Israel cannot continue to be all nice and dandy with the palestinians when it's citizens are getting blown up and terrorized by suicide bombers. I'm sorry, but if curfews and bulldozers are necessary to stop suicide bombers, then that's too damn bad.

Realize that these radical palestinians don't want peace, or any settlement. They want ABSOLUTE control of their portion of Israel, and absolute independence. There's no arguing wiith them. If the Muslims support the Palestinians so much, why hasn't any of the Arab states accepted any of them within its borders? Because its bullshit.

I'm Serb. I can relate with Kosovo. The Albanians formed their own militia, and began warfare in order to separate. Much like the Palestinians. It's all happening again.

Israel continually retreats andasks for peace. But the suicide bombings don't stop. When Israel takes revenge, they're persecuted.

[Darth Wong]

Thanks for giving a clear demonstration of what I was talking about, by reiterating statements and ideas that have already been made dozens of times and thus inviting yet another round of repetition

[fennyCWAL]

Bah, I only read up to page 8. It's past midnight here, sue me.

[Coyote]

I too have more than spent my time in the trench here and realize that there is nothing going on now but the tail-chasing behavior. I have followed the 'race/religion' thread for awhile and nothing new is being said.

Personally, Lord Wong, if you want to lock it and end the headache go ahead; anyone that accuses you of being a Jew-basher I'll be one of the first to step up and tell them to get stuffed.

There are, what, four threads here winding down dealing with this? If anyone wants to know our opinions, pro or con, they can read the threads, and on the off chance that they find something new they can start another later, but it seems to me that every base has been covered and its now down to opinion.

[Darth Wong]

OK, 21 pages is more than enough. Frankly, I doubt anyone will ever come into this board to say anything on this subject which has not already been said. The only reason to do it will be to vent spleen or attack someone on a personal level, which is totally pointless.

Since no one is objecting yet, I'm locking it down.

[Darth Wong]