Steam and Steel: AltHist. Victorian STGOD

Vanas · Post by **Vanas** » 2006-09-12 04:15pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote: EDIT:
I don't think you should get a free ride on anything just by saying your ships are trimarans. First of all, I don't even know how feasible it was to even do that with large ships under 1890s technology, since nobody ever did it. Second of all, even if it did work the fact that nobody ever did it is another strike against your getting the said advantages for free. So my opinion is yes, you should have to "waste" points to represent the experimental nature of your trimaran vessels.

Fair do's. Experimental tech always has it's downsides, I suppose. We're not tactical geniuses, but we do a nice line in weird, slightly wobbly, steampunky stuff.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2006-09-12 04:30pm

Thirdfain wrote:A mine or torpedo strike has a 60% chance of being critical, decreased by 1% for every 2 points of torpedo protection a ship has to a minimum of 30%. Further torpedo protection over that point simply reduces the damage of a non-critical hit (abstracted.)

That's 40% of the attribute points in the largest battleship. I'm not very good at game mechanics, but perhaps setting it at 1-1 (20% of the largest BB) would be better? The minimum 30% chance of critical will still be there even if someone does spend 20 points armouring against torps.

Also, to better the reality of ship construction, I am in the process of working out a system to make the construction of major vessels take more than 1 3-month period- maybe as many as 4.

BBs take 9 months, CAs take 6, everything else you can build in 3.

Alternatively, BBs 12 months, CAs 9 months, CPs 6 months, everything else in 3 months.

EDIT - Note that if you're gonna implement this, you need to determine when we order ships. Generally we would order ships at the end of a three month period and assume that they were built during the preceding three months. Well, at least that's how it worked in STGOD 2k6 with the monthly builds. That's whywe got our ships immediately after ordering them.

Having disparate construction times means that one of two things need to be considered:

1) We reach the end of any arbitrary construction period. Orders are placed. Any ships requiring 3 months to build are given immediately, ships requiring 6 are given at the end of the next 3 month period, and so on and so forth.

2) We reach the end of any arbitrary construction period. Ships are recieved only if they were ordered a number of months ago equal to their construction time. In other words, if you need a squadron of destroyers now, you'd better hope you ordered them three months ago.

The first method is easier on players, particularly newbs into this kind of game. The second method encourages, no, requires planning ahead.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-09-12 04:38pm

Well, with no ruling and the ideas percolating, I'll post what I've got in mind and see if it flies...

120pts
LDV Babagge-class Armoured Cruiser.
6,000 tons
Armament: 1x16 inch Etheric Cannon.
4x8 inch guns
8x6 inch guns
4x18 inch torpedo tubes
Protection: 10
Speed: 8
Fire: 25
Maneuver: 10
Torpedo Protection: 7
x2

80 pts
LDV Dawn-class Protected Cruiser.
4,000 tonnes
Armament: 2x8 inch guns
6x6-inch guns
4x18-inch torpedo tubes
Protection: 7
Speed: 10
Fire: 14
Maneuver: 8
Torpedo Protection: 1

x16

8 pts
LDV Temptest-class Fast Destroyers.
400 tonnes
Armament: 1x12-pounder
5x6-pounders
2x2 inch Etheric Cannon.
Speed: 2
Maneuver: 1
Fire: 1

x40

2pts
LDV Shield-class Torpedo Boats
100 tonnes
Armament: 2x24 inch torpedo tubes
2x.303 Maxim guns
Fire: 1

x80

Standard Navy Cost: 2000 pts

Luminiferian Cavalry.
Operate in units of 1,000 cavalry apeice. Fast troops equipped with proven bolt-action rifles. Battle-hardened against Kaliphate invasions.

5 units.

(5,000 Cavalry, * 4 for Elite, = 400 pts)

Thor's Hammer Artillery.
The myriad difficulties of making mobile Beyond Horizon Cannons is nothing compared to the difficulty of getting the analytical engines that make them work so well mobile and training up spotters to range ahead.. But Luminiferia seems to have done it. Integrated directly into the main army, they work excellently with the normal horse-drawn maxim guns and bolt-action rifles.

(10,000 troops w/artillery, x6 for 'Elite and Artillery, 700 pts)

Fortress Gateway
200 pts.

Built in the largest pass into Luminiferia by land, Gateway administers the entry of refugees from the Kaliphate while holding the line against the rare attack across the desert. Equipped with Beyond-Horizon Cannons and large analytical engines to lengthen their ranges, it has never fallen yet.

Fortress Storm
300 pts.

Near identical in form to Gateway, Storm was built on the coast near the capital of Luminopolis to fend off Kaliphate naval assaults. The BHC gunners who use their loud, clanking engines to gain firing solutions are well-drilled to take spotting data from assisting naval vessels and score devastating hits.

'Hell's Strait'
100 pts.

A minefield set off the Lumin coast with narrow and patrolled paths through. Through the use of Tesla's work with the wireless telegraph, the minefields spend much of their time inactive, though can become armed within a few hours.

Defenses and Army: 1700 pts

Supertechnology:

Luminiferia is well known as being on the bleeding edge of science, though rarely for warfare. For better or ill, the following prototypes have been refit for use on the battlefield.

300 pts
LDV Nautilus-class submarine.
15,000 ton battleship
Armanant: 8x24 inch torpedo tubes
1x16 inch Etheric Cannon
Protection: 50
Speed: 20
Fire: 30
Maneuver: 20
Torpedo Protection: 30

The Nautilus was originally built simply for exploration of the undersea world. She has been rushed into military service by the addition of a massive spinal Ether Resonance Discharge Device(Etheric Cannon or EC for short) and four massive torpedo tubes, facing fore and aft. She is unique in submarines with both her sheer, epic size, and for her use of the bizarre element 'Uranium', first located in Oslo as part of what was dubbed a 'natural reactor'. Exploiting the same mechanics observed, the metals tendency to give off heat powers the Nautilus while submerged, allowing it to reach unparalled speeds while submerged. She remains primarily a research vessel, both to fully prove the concept of submarines in military use, and to fully chart the wonders of the underwater world.

Experimental Vessels: 300 pts.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2006-09-12 04:45pm

Updated my OOB to reflect more "Battle Fleet"-ish style.

Raesene · Post by **Raesene** » 2006-09-12 04:53pm

some background...

Battle off Aubrey Island, March 31st, 1888

On one of its nearly endless patrols, the armored cruiser SMS Kaiser Ferdinand Max sighted smoke clouds on the horizon.
Using its new tethered balllon, observers discovered three french armored cruisers and one protected cruiser escorting transports.

Linienschiffskapitän Vaclav Touska followed established doctrine and signalled 'enemy in sight' - but due to the new radio equipment of his vessel faster than ever before - and without the french ships knowing.

Onboard the Fleet flagship Habsburg, orders were given and transmitted. Two cruiser groups, each consisting of a protected and two small cruisers were ordered to rendevouz with the Kaiser Ferdinand Max.
Two days later, the protected cruisers Novara and Custoza with the small cruisers Wien, Lemberg, Olmütz and Laibach closed in on the Ferdinand Max , first guided by wireless signals, then by a signalling light directed towards the approaching vessels.
The ships stayed out of sight from the french force, with their last position before sundown checked from the balloon - as every day before.

This time, however, the night would be different.

The small cruisers would start a torpedo run against the armored cruisers drung the night, while the armored cruiser would stand in to support them with artillery fire as soon as the torpedoes hit.

The small cruisers closed in and launched their torpedoes as planned wthout being detected, but before the first fish could hit their targets, SMS Custoza was discovered and fired upon by the french armored cruiser Jena. Nevertheless, the torpedo salvo was already on its way and demonstrated value of such an attack. Three torpedoes hit the armored cruiser Austerlitz, which blew up immediately. Two more hit the Jena, but only one exploded, causing shock damage to her boillers, reducing her speed. Only one torpedo hit the protected cruiser Lyon, but the vessels' extensive torpedo protection system prevented heavy damage.

The french armored cruisers fired at the Custoza, which suffered an unlucky hit in her steering gear and could not evade the french salvos.
After some minutes of heavy bombardment, a shell found her torpedo depot and sank her with nealy all hand in an enormous explosion that rivalled that of the Austerlitz some minutes before.

In the meantime, the Ferdinand Max fired at the third armored cruiser, the Marengo. The artillery duel ended well for the Ferdinand Max, because her smaller, but quick-firing guns were able to penetrate the light turret armor of the heavy guns of the french cruiser. This permited her to stay out of range of Marengo's medium guns while destroying her superstructure and engines. Unable to fire or escape, the crew left the ship after setting self-destruct charges to the magazines.

A long range torpedo fired by the Lyon barely missed the Novara but hit SMS Laibach. The detonation tore its bow off, a bulkhead held long enough for a part of the crew to escape.

Novara fired at Lyon, but a lucky hit to her range finder prevented anything better than random hits on the french cruiser.
The french captain managed to shake off the pursuing austrian cruisers during the night.

Onboard the Jena, the engineers tried to repair parts of her boiler damage, enabling her to increase speed. Her artillery kept the unprotected cruisers away at first, but the Lemberg managed to put one more topedo into Jena's side. This was too much for the ship, she began to sink slowly, a tribute to her internal subdivision. While the crew disliked it for making their way throughout the ship complicated, the hated obstackle course now saved many of them from drowning.

At dawn, the austrian cruisers held the field and, having conducted search and rescue operations, dispersed to look for the transports

These despite scattering after the first torpedos hit the Austerlitz, were found quickly and, after no more firing than warning shots, directed to Miramare.

Onboard were parts of a french army divinsion and their equipment on the way to Dai Viet...
All army equipment was removed, but not being willing to feed the prisoners, they were released and sent back to France onboard two transports, shadowed by an austrian cruiser to prevent any bad ideas of their captains.

One was sold sold to the Austrian Lloyd for use as fleet auxiliary when required.

Conclusions for Naval command:
Naval command was reminded of the power of night torpedo attacks, but also of the vulnerability of comparatively large cruisers. A larger torpedo boat, the Chimäre-class, was designed and construction started to have torpedo carriers.
While wanting to perform such attacks, the fleet does not want to be the victim of such a strike. Research has been tasked to find possibilites to detect attempted night attacks. Long-range topedoes are also a research objective.

[and yes, Aubrey island is the home of testudo aubreii

]

if its the wrong forum or not wanted, sorry. criticism welcome.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2006-09-12 04:55pm

I'll note that no one has 36" torpedoes, neither in 1890, nor, for that matter in modern day. 18" would be much more reasonable, and fit what was actually used.

Raesene · Post by **Raesene** » 2006-09-12 05:03pm

Also, to better the reality of ship construction, I am in the process of working out a system to make the construction of major vessels take more than 1 3-month period- maybe as many as 4.
BBs take 9 months, CAs take 6, everything else you can build in 3.

Alternatively, BBs 12 months, CAs 9 months, CPs 6 months, everything else in 3 months.

EDIT - Note that if you're gonna implement this, you need to determine when we order ships. Generally we would order ships at the end of a three month period and assume that they were built during the preceding three months. Well, at least that's how it worked in STGOD 2k6 with the monthly builds. That's whywe got our ships immediately after ordering them.

Why not grade building time by points ? e.g. , 100 points per 3 month period ? That would permit you to build a small cuiser and some torpedo boats at the same time, and allow you to distribute priorities by shifting points from project to project.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-09-12 05:07pm

Beowulf wrote:I'll note that no one has 36" torpedoes, neither in 1890, nor, for that matter in modern day. 18" would be much more reasonable, and fit what was actually used.

No one has a sub that size either, or giant ether guns. They're supposed to be oversized and not historical. And I know even modern ones are smaller, but they're basically built around the idea of 'We need something that'll open a Kaliphate cruiser in a hurry', so they just made something big that still swam.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2006-09-12 05:10pm

Thirdfain wrote:You recieve 200 men per point spent, or 50 men mounted on horse, further points can be used to increase capability up to 3 times their cost, or up to six times their cost if they have modern artillery.

Just trying to keep things straight in my head, as well as suggesting a speed factor.

This means that, on average, a basic trooper is worth .005 points and a basic cavalryman is worth .02 points. With machineguns and field guns, troopers are worth up to .015 pts and cavalry men up to .6 pts. With "modern artillery" by which I understand large powerful batteries, a trooper is worth on average up to .03 pts and a cavalryman up to .12 pts. However, the firepower advantage of heavier artillery would naturally come at the expense of speed.

Example:
Luminiferia's cavalry is worth .8 per man, therefore they have greater firepower than lighter cavalry units, but are slowed-down by their artillery.

EDIT - The chief strength of cavalry is speed, they can run circles around infantry armies and conduct hit-and-run raids. The problem is that they are also huge targets while on their horses and very expensive (because horses gotta eat too). Thus, even a x6 cavalry would be faster than an infantry force, however they are expensive because artillery that can be moved around quickly isn't cheap.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2006-09-12 05:11pm

afterall no one has a sub made with an exotic powersource using say a magnetic weapon either, but it would fit into a steampunk sci-fi setting.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2006-09-12 05:20pm

SirNitram wrote:
Beowulf wrote:I'll note that no one has 36" torpedoes, neither in 1890, nor, for that matter in modern day. 18" would be much more reasonable, and fit what was actually used.
No one has a sub that size either, or giant ether guns. They're supposed to be oversized and not historical. And I know even modern ones are smaller, but they're basically built around the idea of 'We need something that'll open a Kaliphate cruiser in a hurry', so they just made something big that still swam.

You've got a tradeoff between huge torpedos, and being able to fire enough torpedos off that one will hit. You're going to be packing something like 800 lb warheads on those monster torpedos (scaling off the 18 in torpedos in use). That's not going to be merely opening up a cruiser, it's going to break it in half. Also, they're going to be slow (resistance increases proportionally to wetted area and to the frontal area), which makes them easier to avoid. 24" torpedos would, however, be reasonable, and inline with reality, somewhat, anyway.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-09-12 05:23pm

Beowulf wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Beowulf wrote:I'll note that no one has 36" torpedoes, neither in 1890, nor, for that matter in modern day. 18" would be much more reasonable, and fit what was actually used.
No one has a sub that size either, or giant ether guns. They're supposed to be oversized and not historical. And I know even modern ones are smaller, but they're basically built around the idea of 'We need something that'll open a Kaliphate cruiser in a hurry', so they just made something big that still swam.
You've got a tradeoff between huge torpedos, and being able to fire enough torpedos off that one will hit. You're going to be packing something like 800 lb warheads on those monster torpedos (scaling off the 18 in torpedos in use). That's not going to be merely opening up a cruiser, it's going to break it in half. Also, they're going to be slow (resistance increases proportionally to wetted area and to the frontal area), which makes them easier to avoid. 24" torpedos would, however, be reasonable, and inline with reality, somewhat, anyway.

I had in fact put down the size with the intent of them being slow firing and inaccurate. But with the 'Snap a cruiser in two' comment makes it clear. I'll ramp 'em down to 24".

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2006-09-12 05:36pm

Raesene wrote:Why not grade building time by points ? e.g. , 100 points per 3 month period ? That would permit you to build a small cuiser and some torpedo boats at the same time, and allow you to distribute priorities by shifting points from project to project.

I've been talking to Thirdfain about this, and it may be jumping the gun to say so, but that's basically the system I suggested--under 100 points is one cycle, 100-200 points two cycles, 200-300 points three cycles, points divided up between turns. For example, an ROS Khanjar will cost me 100 points per build cycle for three build cycles, 300 points in total; an ROS Zulfiqar would cost 80 points per cycle for two cycles... alternatively I think we could play with the idea of delayed construction, saving a few points each turn by stretching out construction, like building that Zulfiqar for three turns at 54 points per turn. Rush building would be a no-no though.

And don't anyone get the bright idea to commission 99 and 199 point ships, it's still possible for a moderator to make such decisions on a case-by-case basis.

EDIT:
BTW, Nitram, have you decided on which part of the coast you're going to be?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-09-12 05:41pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:BTW, Nitram, have you decided on which part of the coast you're going to be?

Your suggestion of the coast of Tanzania and Kenya, seized through overthrowing the Sultan with the local populace; justified as any truly enlightened man is ready to cast off the shackles of bigotry of the past and assist any.

The potential friction with Oman will be an interesting angle, anyways.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-12 06:25pm

Jalinth wrote:Shipping thoughts.

For general shipping, it might be useful to have something on the lines of a general shipping pool.

Very good idea. I have come up with a systm.

1 pt per 1,000 tonnes of capacity. Each player might get a set amount at the beginning. But after this, you need to build your own.

Superb plan, except that measuring cargo capacity is far to complex for this game. I certainly don't want to spend time measuring how many megatons of food I'm exporting. How many thousands of tonnes of metal do I need to move? Sulfur? I don't know. I don't want everyone to have to find out.

Instead, allow me to propose this system:

Shipping capacity is represented by an abstract point value. Everyone starts out with 2000 points of shipping capacity. It takes 500 points to establish a trade route for 1 resource-1 resource; and shipping capacity can be used to move troops at a rate of 40 infantry (or 10 horsemen) per 1 point of shipping. You can spend points on shipping; it goes directly into your shipping pool.

Q-Ships - these must be built to the general warship lines if these are simply disguised warships (very heavily armed). In my view, these are to be submitted to Thirdfain directly since the purpose is to be secret.
Include a "dummy" ship in your listing that is replaced by the Q-ship. You are "overpaying" (capability wise) in points for the secrecy.

Superb plan. One could claim to spend 160 points on shipping capacity one turn, privatly IM me that you are in fact building a 160 point Q-ship.

Troop transports - I'm not sure if enough reason exists to differentiate these from your general shipping pool. Only issue here would be making sure that if you ship troops in a turn, you can't ship opium, coal, etc...

Agreed.

Armed merchantmen (have a few 3 or 5 pounders - could fight off some very lightly armed ships. That is it). 3 pts per 1,000 tonnes capacity. More expensive than regular shipping, but still only a 1/3 of a warship.

Pirates/privateers. These should be simply regular warships in my view. Just optimize them for piracy operations (very fast, very agile, with low firepower, protection, and torpedo protection).

Unarmoured Cruisers would make fine pirates/privateers. So would protected ones, for that matter- even armed sloops.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-12 06:26pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Raesene wrote:Why not grade building time by points ? e.g. , 100 points per 3 month period ? That would permit you to build a small cuiser and some torpedo boats at the same time, and allow you to distribute priorities by shifting points from project to project.
I've been talking to Thirdfain about this, and it may be jumping the gun to say so, but that's basically the system I suggested--under 100 points is one cycle, 100-200 points two cycles, 200-300 points three cycles, points divided up between turns. For example, an ROS Khanjar will cost me 100 points per build cycle for three build cycles, 300 points in total; an ROS Zulfiqar would cost 80 points per cycle for two cycles... alternatively I think we could play with the idea of delayed construction, saving a few points each turn by stretching out construction, like building that Zulfiqar for three turns at 54 points per turn. Rush building would be a no-no though.

And don't anyone get the bright idea to commission 99 and 199 point ships, it's still possible for a moderator to make such decisions on a case-by-case basis.

I like it. Unless anyone has any pressing objections, I pass this into the rules.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-12 06:29pm

Adrian Laguna wrote: That's 40% of the attribute points in the largest battleship. I'm not very good at game mechanics, but perhaps setting it at 1-1 (20% of the largest BB) would be better? The minimum 30% chance of critical will still be there even if someone does spend 20 points armouring against torps.

Torpedo armouring schemes of the time were moderately successful at best and totally useless at worst. This is meant to display that.

EDIT - Note that if you're gonna implement this, you need to determine when we order ships. Generally we would order ships at the end of a three month period and assume that they were built during the preceding three months. Well, at least that's how it worked in STGOD 2k6 with the monthly builds. That's whywe got our ships immediately after ordering them.

You'll start the game by declaring what construction has started, it will finish at the end on a 3-month period (if it's 100 pts or under!)

Having disparate construction times means that one of two things need to be considered:

The first method is easier on players, particularly newbs into this kind of game. The second method encourages, no, requires planning ahead.

I encourage planning ahead!

[edit]
PS: Nitram!

No re-investment in your preliminary OOB!

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-09-12 06:31pm

Thirdfain wrote:[edit]
PS: Nitram!

No re-investment in your preliminary OOB!

Oh. Damn.

Now I have to work out what I want for 1000 points.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2006-09-12 06:35pm

Thirdfain wrote:
Jalinth wrote:Q-Ships - these must be built to the general warship lines if these are simply disguised warships (very heavily armed). In my view, these are to be submitted to Thirdfain directly since the purpose is to be secret.
Include a "dummy" ship in your listing that is replaced by the Q-ship. You are "overpaying" (capability wise) in points for the secrecy.
Superb plan. One could claim to spend 160 points on shipping capacity one turn, privatly IM me that you are in fact building a 160 point Q-ship.

There should be a limit on how large Q-ships can be. You can't disguise the larger warships, as shown by the fact that real nations didn't even try. In my opinion, you can't make a capital Q-ship. In other words armoured cruisers and battleships cannot be made into Q-ships. That would put the upper limit at... call it 80 points, maybe 100.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-12 06:41pm

Adrian Laguna wrote: There should be a limit on how large Q-ships can be. You can't disguise the larger warships, as shown by the fact that real nations didn't even try. In my opinion, you can't make a capital Q-ship. In other words armoured cruisers and battleships cannot be made into Q-ships. That would put the upper limit at... call it 80 points, maybe 100.

There must have been Q-ships which weighed as much as larger crusiers and the like! These vessels would not have anywhere near the combat ability- speed, armament, or armouring of an actual warship!

I mean, where there? I suppose I must do some research. I certainly don't intend for there to be Q-ships of battleship or armoured cruiser capability...

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2006-09-12 06:47pm

SirNitram wrote:
Thirdfain wrote:[edit]
PS: Nitram!

No re-investment in your preliminary OOB!
Oh. Damn.

Now I have to work out what I want for 1000 points.

I wouldn't have any problem spending another 1000 points

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2006-09-12 06:51pm

Thirdfain wrote:Shipping capacity is represented by an abstract point value. Everyone starts out with 2000 points of shipping capacity. It takes 500 points to establish a trade route for 1 resource-1 resource;

Which player pays the point cost? I would assume both in equal parts, but is it 500 total per resource trade, or 1000 total with 500 from each player?

and shipping capacity can be used to move troops at a rate of 40 infantry (or 10 horsemen) per 1 point of shipping. You can spend points on shipping; it goes directly into your shipping pool.

Considering that my whole transport capacity might being expended on trade right now I'm preliminarily editing my OOB to give me an extra 100 units of shipping so my marines can have something to do.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2006-09-12 06:58pm

Which player pays the point cost? I would assume both in equal parts, but is it 500 total per resource trade, or 1000 total with 500 from each player?

500 from each player.

Considering that my whole transport capacity might being expended on trade right now I'm preliminarily editing my OOB to give me an extra 100 units of shipping so my marines can have something to do.
_________________

Of course! The reason we have no OOB thread yet is for reasons such as these

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-09-12 07:03pm

OOB updated with a doubled navy, still mostly in an arrangement of defense and control of near waters.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2006-09-12 07:29pm

Nit, what's an etheric cannon do?