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Sodom and Gomorrha were two of a group of five loosely allied cities on the plain of the Jordan River, although the exact locations aren't known -- there's apparently several different candidate sites.

If the US military can open a portal to Deumos' chamber with the help of Luga, then it should stand to reason that a portal to Satan's palace could be possible with Abigor's assistance or knowledge of its location.

Why not just open one and lob a nuke or two through to incinerate the entirety of Hell's leadership?

Zim wrote:If the US military can open a portal to Deumos' chamber with the help of Luga, then it should stand to reason that a portal to Satan's palace could be possible with Abigor's assistance or knowledge of its location.

Why not just open one and lob a nuke or two through to incinerate the entirety of Hell's leadership?

You don't necessarily escalate unilaterally, especially when you have so little information about the enemy and there's a second front in your two-front war where you have made no progress at all and you possess even less information.

We may end up needing somebody against Heaven, so why risk getting them as collateral damage against Satan? For that matter, as long as he's still alive and kicking, we know that it's him in charge and what he wants (namely to claim all Humanity).

Edward Yee wrote:We may end up needing somebody against Heaven, so why risk getting them as collateral damage against Satan? For that matter, as long as he's still alive and kicking, we know that it's him in charge and what he wants (namely to claim all Humanity).

The thing about Satan is that he's potentially valuable, in the sense that he's the only person who can unilaterally negotiate on behalf of all Hell. If you kill him, then Hell might disintegrate into countless fiefdoms, any number of whom might continue to launch strikes against humanity until they are individually neutralized.

How about just showing Satan that we can blow up his throne any time we feel like, then sending a radio (along with instructions) so that we can talk with him directly ?

bilateralrope wrote:How about just showing Satan that we can blow up his throne any time we feel like, then sending a radio (along with instructions) so that we can talk with him directly ?

Sorry, but that's simply idiotic, because then he can move constantly through his domains to prevent us from targeting him effectively, and surround himself with human shields. We want to retain the option of vapourizing him, after all.

I don't know if he'd do that - the first condition being that he accepts that the humans really could kill him; he hasn't seen the human weapons in action himself. The second condition is that he'd be seen as seriously weakened and cowardly if he abandons his palace and runs around trying to avoid human attack. That would be something I don't think he'd want to admit to himself, let alone to all the Great Dukes around him, and, for that matter, every demon in Hell, as the word will get around eventually. The second might be able to be dealt with by saying "Satan is going on a grand tour of Hell to make sure everything is going well for the conquest of humanity", but on the other hand, that puts him at risk from the PFLH. If they were able to take down Asmodeus that shows that Satan himself could also be vulnerable.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

bilateralrope wrote:How about just showing Satan that we can blow up his throne any time we feel like, then sending a radio (along with instructions) so that we can talk with him directly ?

Sorry, but that's simply idiotic, because then he can move constantly through his domains to prevent us from targeting him effectively, and surround himself with human shields. We want to retain the option of vapourizing him, after all.

I won't say that..........The tactic might be potentially valuable in terms of shock and awe. After the destruction of Satan field armies, an invasion into Hell territories and a systematic assasination of lower demons, the revelation that even Satan is vulnerable and the possibility that humans would wish to screw up God too might cause Satan to surrender....... But this appears to be venturing too much into Stuart domain.

PainRack wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

bilateralrope wrote:How about just showing Satan that we can blow up his throne any time we feel like, then sending a radio (along with instructions) so that we can talk with him directly ?

Sorry, but that's simply idiotic, because then he can move constantly through his domains to prevent us from targeting him effectively, and surround himself with human shields. We want to retain the option of vapourizing him, after all.

I won't say that..........The tactic might be potentially valuable in terms of shock and awe. After the destruction of Satan field armies, an invasion into Hell territories and a systematic assasination of lower demons, the revelation that even Satan is vulnerable and the possibility that humans would wish to screw up God too might cause Satan to surrender....... But this appears to be venturing too much into Stuart domain.

Because that worked so well when we invaded Iraq.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Because that worked so well when we invaded Iraq.

Though PainRack's plan is still stupid, I don't think Hell and Iraq are comparable. We would have a much easier of terrorizing Hell into submission than if we tried the same in Iraq. Just find Lord Kitchener and put him in charge of the occupation forces.

If Satan is killed and the dukes go mad and go at each other and shit, it would be just like Iraq. In Hell.

HELLRAQ!
[mang that is retarded]

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Because that worked so well when we invaded Iraq.

Right, because the US adminstration actually gave Saddam the option of surrendering and leaving him in control of Iraq? Pyschological warfare is part of warfare and diplomacy afterall. If Satan refuses to surrender even after being decisively defeated, a kidnapping mission or even just proof that human magic could kill him might bring him to the table. Or do you doubt that modern humans would be unable to replicate what the Mongols and the Spainairds did?

Which actually brings up an interesting question. What are the political goals of the human attack into hell? Will we begin to see coalition problems pop up when members begin bargaining and arguing about hell?

At this point, it seems like the goal is to set up secured forward bases (plural) into hell from which we can launch strikes at any time, and to cause as much death and destruction to the demons to a point that the demons will choose to flee rather than to fight us (damn the consequences). It's after they realize that they cannot defeat us, and when they either start surrendering to us en mass, or trying to bargain with us (rather than fight), that I feel that the military goals will shift in regards to hell.

It seems to me that the tactics so far are basically terror tactics: spread fear among the demon population. This makes sense even if the long-term goal is to bring Satan to the negotiating table, because you can't negotiate with someone like Satan if you do not first establish yourself as a credible threat to him.

I don’t think it’s even at the stage of terror tactics, human forces are still gathering some pretty basic information which will be used to work out new tactics and a long term strategy. For the moment existing tactics are simply being applied. The tank raid for example that killed Satans guards might seem out of place on a modern battlefield, but actually it’s nothing unusual for fighting in wide open semi desert country. During the Gulf War the US Army made numerous small and large tank and tank escorted artillery raids on Iraq positions in the weeks before the ‘100 hour’ ground war supposedly started.

OK, I suppose that makes sense.

I wonder how much intel Abigor has given them, and whether they've planned out a campaign yet. I'm still operating under the assumption that they want to force Satan to the bargaining table at some point, rather than killing him off.

IMHO, humanity's goal after Satan's defeat should be to establish Abigor as the head of a stable government. The fallen (again) Great Duke does not have the forces to enforce his will on the other demonic nobles, and must rely on human soldiers/marines to do so, which means he'll be VERY cooperative towards human authorities. Then the human governments can carve up Hell into various administrative sectors (see the former Ottoman Empire after WWI), and grant licenses to various companies to strip mine the hell out of Hell.

Attacks on human occupational forces will be detered by proclaiming that for every casualty they suffer, a "mage fire" barrage, followed by an "iron chariot" raid, will hit a demonic settlement, until the humans run out of targets or out of ammo, whichever comes first. If any demons try to go Viet Cong on the human occupational forces, a few "examples" will convince the demonic civilians to refuse to cooperate with the rebels and to inform the authorities of any activities.

Brutal? Yes, but history has proven that brutal and ruthless measures will triumph where "winning hearts and minds" won't (note that a coalition of foreign nations had to apply overwhelming military force to overthrow Saddam, while the supposed "Iraqi resistance" couldn't).

Here's a question though... why Abigor, and not Deumos or perhaps any other demonic VIPs?

Edward Yee wrote:Here's a question though... why Abigor, and not Deumos or perhaps any other demonic VIPs?

If Abigors particular sub-species of demon is the majority of the demon population, then the demons of Hell may be more receptive to him as a leader, as opposed to a "single sex freak" on the throne.

Sidewinder wrote:IMHO, humanity's goal after Satan's defeat should be to establish Abigor as the head of a stable government. The fallen (again) Great Duke does not have the forces to enforce his will on the other demonic nobles, and must rely on human soldiers/marines to do so, which means he'll be VERY cooperative towards human authorities. Then the human governments can carve up Hell into various administrative sectors (see the former Ottoman Empire after WWI), and grant licenses to various companies to strip mine the hell out of Hell.

Attacks on human occupational forces will be detered by proclaiming that for every casualty they suffer, a "mage fire" barrage, followed by an "iron chariot" raid, will hit a demonic settlement, until the humans run out of targets or out of ammo, whichever comes first. If any demons try to go Viet Cong on the human occupational forces, a few "examples" will convince the demonic civilians to refuse to cooperate with the rebels and to inform the authorities of any activities.

Brutal? Yes, but history has proven that brutal and ruthless measures will triumph where "winning hearts and minds" won't (note that a coalition of foreign nations had to apply overwhelming military force to overthrow Saddam, while the supposed "Iraqi resistance" couldn't).

What about the second front in this war? A second front against which the humans have made no progress whatsoever so far? Do they even know how to reach Heaven?

Darth Wong wrote:What about the second front in this war? A second front against which the humans have made no progress whatsoever so far? Do they even know how to reach Heaven?

I suppose that after seeing the humans fuckown Hell and Uriel, some of the more, shall we say, impressionable angels might be persuaded to defect.

After all, Satan DID manage to win his own realm from them.

Darth Wong wrote: What about the second front in this war? A second front against which the humans have made no progress whatsoever so far? Do they even know how to reach Heaven?

Interrogating demons?
Abigor is pretty high ranking and it's been mentioned he fought in the celestial war.

Zim wrote:Interrogating demons?

For what good that's worth. But yeah, this focus on Hell at the expense of long-term (vs. Heaven) would be a bad thing if those humans in the fic think the same way.

Eulogy wrote:
I suppose that after seeing the humans fuckown Hell and Uriel, some of the more, shall we say, impressionable angels might be persuaded to defect.

Where did we kill Uriel ? He's only appeared once to my knowledge.