StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Sea Skimmer wrote:Well I have no idea just what armor they deleted (my guess would be the various secret bits of the composite protection), nor just how strong the various demons are going to be in close combat, so I couldn’t answer that one.

The human leadership in the story probably don't have a good idea of demon combat capabilities vs armoured vehicles yet either. But as I suggested earlier, the complex and expensive armour composition optimised to stop high-velocity penetrators is unlikely to be relevant. I am by no means an expert in this - but for protection against low-velocity bashing and tearing (the demons haven't demonstrated anything exotic like monomolecular blades/claws) simple RHA seems likely to be just as good and much cheaper.

If you really wanted more mobile guns at the lowest possible cost, then you could just take a big truck and mount a 122mm howitzer on it, with a simple gun shield and 40 gallon vodka barrel.

That would be fine for rear-echelon units that are always escorted by adequate AAA and have a low probability of being overrun by demonic cavalry/infantry. As Stuart noted, there will undoubtadly be plenty of these. But for strikes and counterattack, you're going to want something well armoured enough that it can't be easily taken out by any demon that gets close. MBT armour might still be overkill though; something like the MGS gun mount on a Bradley hull might do the same job cheaper, but probably not cheaper enough to justify the cost of switching over production from tried and true MBT designs in wartime.

Another problem with economising by using IFV/APC hulls for strike vehicles; even if they're enough to resist demon weapons, machine guns might not cut it for 'hosing the enemy infantry off friendly vehicles' when the enemy infantry consists of raging giant demons. Presumably MBT armour would allow you to use autocannon in this role with a reasonably low chance of destroying the vehicle you're trying to help? Certainly I would expect the coaxial MG to be uprated from 7.42 to at least .50 on the new-build tanks.

I confess it would be funny to see a group of Strykers ambushed and although their hulls resist the initial attack, they get their tyres ripped to shreds by demon claws and/or melted by fire breath, allowing them to be destroyed at leisure.

If the Russians really wanted to produce an economy tank, they’d probably simplify it a lot more then just reducing armor. I don’t see the need for new built economy tanks though; they’ve got hoards of old vehicles they can throw into action already as Slade has already mentioned.

The US seems to be relying more on building new ones. Europe is presumably in an even worse position regarding mothballed weapons, and probably has less rampable heavy industry capacity than the US too. If anyone is going to build an 'economy tank', Europe seems the most likely (someone more knowledgable than me would have to suggest what existing platforms/components can be adapted for the role).

Sidewinder wrote:Some questions. Is the US going to put the M1 series tanks back in production, or is that no longer possible?

The last chapter mentions restarting M1A2 part production. Whole tanks seems almost certain given the general tone.

What about gun control? With millions of demons running around, able to appear anywhere, I imagine a LOT of people in a LOT of places will demand self-defense weapons.

Good point, particularly with regard to Europe and to a lesser extent Japan.

White Haven wrote:My thinking on the drawdown of the overseer force wasn't so much that it depleted the overall numbers available, but that Hell's government is very hierarchial and feudal in nature, and these particular torture pits are housing those killed by the legions that own them, and those legions are on Earth right now.

That would make sense. The guard seemed surprised and unprepared for having to deal with escapees, which wouldn't be the case if the place was normally that easy to bust out of. I very much doubt those would have been the first people in human history to get the idea of trying to free themselves. And a spoils system makes sense for Hell.

Sidewinder wrote:Considering what was done to her, I'm surprised Broomstick didn't castrate the demon.

Under the circumstances you want to kill the guard as quickly as possible. The last thing you want is to give the gorilla-strength beast a chance to recover and fight back, or worse, raise the alarm and bring more of them down on you.

I liked the part about the demon turning himself invisible. I get the feeling the demons probably have a lot of abilities that would be very useful against humans but they haven't used them yet because they're inexperienced. The succubi are a good example. They're starting to learn.

This is not good, as Stuart did not write enough.






I need more. It is crack!!!!

[R_H] wrote:Ah, ok sorry about that. What do you mean "more advanced"? That the Tunguska carries missiles? I agree that a bunch of cannons would be adequate.

Yes, Tunguska has a missile system in addition to its 30mm autocannons, which is of questionable value against the numbers of your average Harpy attack. Sure, it means each vehicle can potentially pop 4 Harpies at distance before engaging with guns, which is a small advantage, I suppose, before they get into gun range, where the Tunguska and Shilka show the Baldricks what they do best.

Either way, both vehicles would put up an excellent showing.

Europe HAS an economy tank or something not to dissimlar.


AMX 13 ,AMl h-60 and h-90 , 90mm scorpion....


Last but not least. Artillery, aircraft and human set minefields.

So people ending up in Hell naked makes sense....I mean, the demons wouldn't believe naked P-40, P-51, Bf-109, A6M, and F-105 pilots showing up and claiming that they fly.

How do you explain a tank to someone who's never seen one; and with no evidence to back yourself up, other than your word?

Starglider wrote: [Dante had some supernatural inspiration then? I suppose that follows if you're using material from other dark age demonologists. I guess we'll find out how literal this name is (in geographic terms) when the aerial surveillence gets going. The river could be a tributary of the Styx, but the traditional sin for being immersed in it is slothfulness, which doesn't seem to apply here.

The Fifth Circle is actually both sloth and wrath, the logic being that they're both sins that choke the sinner and bury them under a blanket of sullen misery.

I confess to some curiosity about the demon's gender ratio. We've got a strong implication (from 'relatives on the parade stand' and the fact they're gendered at all) that they engage in sexual reproduction. However AFAIK Deumos and Sheba are the only female demons we've seen so far, and there's a weak implication here that all of the supervisors/torturers are male too. If so either the gender ratio is extremely biased or all the female demons are off farming or building or making things. I can't imagine they'd be spending much time on childcare, given the low reproduction rate implied by the stable population size and minimal yearly mortality.

It'll be some time before those questions start to get answered but they will.

Furthermore, I was speculating on, say, around 200,000 or so people who have escaped, remain escaped, and successfully in hiding. Out of a population of 120 billion in Hell, that isn't just expected, it's almost mandatory. You cannot have a system with 100% efficiency, and that would mean that Hell is at least (since we're not counting aliens) 99.9998% efficient at keeping people in eternal torture. Considering the ease with which the pilots escaped, do you really think .0002% of the inmates would not have the will, motivation, sanity, and capability to escape and remain escaped?

Without being too much of a spoiler, yes there are other escapees. As to the ease of escape, don't underestimate it. Poor Jade Kim had been nailed down and shackled down and was on the point of drowning. In addition she had been very seriously injured. Getting free took a lot of effort and a LOT of raw courage. It also took something else, a mindset that escape was possible. Thi is something new, something again that the demons just don't allow for; they're used to people who are catatonic with fear and stunned into docility. The few who do escape are statistically insignificant and get lost in the numbers shuffle.

Look on it this way, think of the people who herd cattle and/or sheep into the slaughterhouse of a stockyard. Now go listen to the record "Cows with Guns" (one of my favorites). What would happen in a stockyard if the cows not only start to resist but had been trained to resist effectively and had a pretty good working knowledge of karate (cowrate?) plus firearms and the knowledge of how to use them. The stockyard staff simply wouldn't begin to conceive that the possibility would even occur. (And yes, every so often (more often than admitted) livestock does escape).

So the demons are at a major disadvantage simply because what is happening to them is totally out of any frame of refence they may have.

As far as the war-mobilization goes, I hope we do see some of the side-effects and the time it takes (it seems to be going rather fast right now) - war rationing, consumer goods loss, etc?

phongn wrote:As far as the war-mobilization goes, I hope we do see some of the side-effects and the time it takes (it seems to be going rather fast right now) - war rationing, consumer goods loss, etc?

New Zealand experiences the greatest food commodity boom in its history: Would you like mint with your lamb? a nice glass of milk, perhaps?.

Alferd Packer wrote:]

I just hope it doesn't become a fractious movement. Before you know it, you'd have the Hell Liberation Popular People's Front, the People's Social Front of Liberation from Hell, the Hell Liberation Front of the People...

The Front for the Liberation of the People of Hell, the Hellish Popular Liberation Group, etc, etc. Before long, we'd have regular showings of The Life of Satan. (shudders)

Stuart Mackey wrote:

phongn wrote:As far as the war-mobilization goes, I hope we do see some of the side-effects and the time it takes (it seems to be going rather fast right now) - war rationing, consumer goods loss, etc?

New Zealand experiences the greatest food commodity boom in its history: Would you like mint with your lamb? a nice glass of milk, perhaps?.

I actually just had a strange vision of the Allblacks doing the Haka in front of the hellmouth, and a few hellish legions turning back to hell soon afterwards

Stuart wrote:

Starglider wrote: [Dante had some supernatural inspiration then? I suppose that follows if you're using material from other dark age demonologists. I guess we'll find out how literal this name is (in geographic terms) when the aerial surveillence gets going. The river could be a tributary of the Styx, but the traditional sin for being immersed in it is slothfulness, which doesn't seem to apply here.

The Fifth Circle is actually both sloth and wrath, the logic being that they're both sins that choke the sinner and bury them under a blanket of sullen misery.

So does that mean there really IS a limbo/first circle that's only guarded by a wall? A wall that could be flown over? Or climbed? At the very least, it might be a good place for the free humans to establish a base. (Yes, I really like the idea of a Great Escape of some of the awesomest people in history here).

Also, on the calculation of 120 billion: how far back are you estimating that people have been around? Anatomically modern humans seem to have evolved somewhere between 100-130 thousand years ago, but cultural artifacts which might indicate modern abilities to think and imagine don't start appearing until about 70,000 years ago or so. Are you counting everybody back a certain number of tens of thousands of years or so, and also including Neandertals and other closely related hominid species? There wouldn't have been many of them at any one time, but the Neandertals were around for 500,000 years or so, and the numbers probably added up.

On a slightly different note, Heaven sounds like it's run by the Orii. Get a bunch of prostrating worshipers to power themselves up.

I don't think Limbo/First Circle is guarded by a simple wall. If it was THAT easy, we'd have people coming back from the dead a lot.

MKSheppard wrote:I don't think Limbo/First Circle is guarded by a simple wall. If it was THAT easy, we'd have people coming back from the dead a lot.

Just because they escape from prison doesn't mean they can get out of the desert. So to speak.

Where is the money for Russia's industrial buildup coming from? All the news I hear is about how pissy things are economically, though I probably don't have accurate info.

Setzer wrote:Where is the money for Russia's industrial buildup coming from? All the news I hear is about how pissy things are economically, though I probably don't have accurate info.

Probably a command from On High saying "Build it for the glory of Mother Russia!"

I mean. Hell itself just declared that it's coming to take all your souls. A few rubles either way isn't going to matter so long as you have food in your belly, heat for your home in winter, and your soul intact.

War has an interestingly stimulating effect on an economy.

Mayabird wrote: So does that mean there really IS a limbo/first circle that's only guarded by a wall? A wall that could be flown over? Or climbed? At the very least, it might be a good place for the free humans to establish a base. (Yes, I really like the idea of a Great Escape of some of the awesomest people in history here).

A little bit of a spoiler so be warned.

The geography of hell is that hell itself (where the human souls are) is a giant pit rather like an ancient super-volcano caldera in the geographical center of Satan's domain. It'surrounded by the walled City of Dis which acts as both an administrative capital and the guard zonel for Hell (since its a whole city, humans trying to get through it are easily detected - perhaps). Then outside Dis is an area where the demons live which is (by their standards) quite pleasant.

Also, on the calculation of 120 billion: how far back are you estimating that people have been around? Anatomically modern humans seem to have evolved somewhere between 100-130 thousand years ago, but cultural artifacts which might indicate modern abilities to think and imagine don't start appearing until about 70,000 years ago or so. Are you counting everybody back a certain number of tens of thousands of years or so, and also including Neandertals and other closely related hominid species? There wouldn't have been many of them at any one time, but the Neandertals were around for 500,000 years or so, and the numbers probably added up.

I have no real idea; I just researched the number of humans ever born, looked at the number of answers people came up with and gave it my best shot.

On a slightly different note, Heaven sounds like it's run by the Orii. Get a bunch of prostrating worshipers to power themselves up.

Exactly, Stargate got it perfectly right without even realizing it (I wonder if it was Stargate realizing the truth that kicked off The Message and started the whole ball rolling.)

Setzer wrote:Where is the money for Russia's industrial buildup coming from? All the news I hear is about how pissy things are economically, though I probably don't have accurate info.

Print it, just like the United States and the rest of the world is doing. Boeing need a check for the F-22s they are delivering? Easy, write one and give it to them. This is a war economy; print money as and when needed, prevent inflation by strict wage and price controls and wait with grim resignation for the post-war ecomomic disaster. To give you some measure, the economic catastrophe that was enveloping the United States in 1946-50 was shaping up to be worse than the Great Depression; we got out of it by the skin of our teeth (and the Korean War).

I love this, mang. And the fact that SDnetters are contributing segments to the greater whole story, I think this collaborative project is the Definative SDnet piece of literature.

I mean, aside from discussing Star Trek versus Star Wars, SDnet also deals with reason, science, logic and morality (SLAM, hurr!)'s triumph over ignorance, over mysticism and the stupidity of the old ways - and this story encapsulates all of that in a most wonderful way.

All we need now is for the story's greatest climax to have F-18 Mike Wong and other SDnet Aces to lead the greatest air raid in history into the VERY DEPTHS OF HELL! and viola!

Stuart wrote:The geography of hell is that hell itself (where the human souls are) is a giant pit rather like an ancient super-volcano caldera in the geographical center of Satan's domain.

If there are about 90 billion souls in hell and they have an average of 10 metres squared each (a fairly sensible lower bound when you consider all the access routes, divisions between areas, unusable areas, buildings for the overseers, storage areas and the relatively wide spacing of the prisoners in the last chapter) that's about a million square kilometres. That would make hell about as big as Egypt and a little over 1000km across if it is circular. Of course there could be a lot more empty wasteland areas (we don't know if hell is anywhere near full yet), and the souls could be more spread out on average. If each soul has on average 100 metres squared to languish in, hell would be about as large as the United States and around 3500km across (if circular).

It'surrounded by the walled City of Dis which acts as both an administrative capital and the guard zonel for Hell (since its a whole city, humans trying to get through it are easily detected - perhaps).

It's unlikely that the ~20M demon supervisors are constantly commuting back and forth from Dis, unless they can teleport around in hell easily. But perhaps they all have homes there; lets assume an equal number of guards and administrators. Typical population density for a first world city is a few thousand humans per km. If Dis had the same population density and constant thickness, that would make it about 1 to 10 km wide (depending on the exact densities of demons and prisoners). Most of the demons are larger and aside from a few palaces their buildings are likely simple single-floored dwellings, so that range may well be an order of magnitude too low, giving a width for Dis up to 10km for a USA-sized sprawling hell and 100km for a compact Egypt-sized one. That's assuming a symmetrical ring city walled on both sides, which is possible given how much the demons seem to be concerned with auspicious shapes and form over function. But if they were feeling a bit more practical when they laid it out, Dis would be more like a long string of conventional cities connected by a wall with regular forts, probably comparable to (but much larger than) Hadrian's Wall in England.

Then outside Dis is an area where the demons live which is (by their standards) quite pleasant.

Presumably Dysprosium (is that a pun on the Greek word?) is somewhere in this region, rather than Hell itself. A human liberation force is going to have to smash through Dis to effect a breakout - which probably won't be that difficult if it's thinly spread around the entire perimeter. Capturing Dis will be tough, but if the humans manage it they will essentially have a giant fortress smack in the middle of the demon lands. The question is, is it worth the cost to capture or would it be better to just lay down a ring of nukes on it. I suppose a deciding factor could be the number of human slaves present in Dis and whether there's any realistic chance of rescuing them with a ground invasion.

I wonder if there is any way to give the humans in hell weapons...because it will be fun when the greatest general of humanity led a rather modern army.

Perhaps, but remember that you risk giving the demons weapons while you are at it. Not a chance I'd be willing to take.

ray245 wrote:I wonder if there is any way to give the humans in hell weapons...because it will be fun when the greatest general of humanity led a rather modern army.

Well there is a big ass gate we could fly UAV loaded with weapons through. Or perhaps send some SF through so they can train free and train the trapped souls that are there.

Hum question are the bodies the souls have now real and can they come out the gate?

Stuart, what about the sheer mental health issues here? I mean most people being tortured for centuries, if not millenia, have to be jibbering wrecks or mutes at this point.

Assuming humanity does eventually seize hell, I would assume having to rehabilite billions would be a centuries long task. Is this a problem you've looked at?