StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Galvatron, if you feel that the ideas of this thread are not what you would consider to be acceptable why don't you consider working either in one of the post-Endor topics or consider working on the Second Empire in the other thread. Those both are in the Fanfic area. The ideas you have could be useful and are highly interesting and could make those other threads develop - especially the Second Empire one.

Galvatron wrote:I'm not sure what else I have left to contribute to this thread given the constraints. I can deal with ROTJ, but the rest? No thanks.

I think your model is better for a general reboot which is what the LegacyFic aims to be. I think your broader concepts would work there (though I do like some of your ideas about less politics and stronger Vader and much, much more important Tarkin - and Bail Organa too).

So here are my Prequel thoughts, so far.

We have a couple models to use. The Augustan model, the Caesarian model, the Napoleonic model, the Nazi model, the Leninist model, the Stalinist model. Each has strengths and weaknesses.

The Augustan model is probably the best for Palpatine's rise itself. The greater historical model lends itself well to both the Augustan and Caesarian models; the Napoleonic model has limited application, along with the Nazi, Leninist, and Stalinist ones.

I see it that the era is broken into three epochs. The Clone Wars. The Dark Times. The Empire. What needs to happen? Anakin Skywalker should be discovered and recognized for a man of stupefyingly unique and exceptional talent. He should become a hero and leader fighting in the Wars and against the enemies of the Republic (and Palpatine). He should be tempted by and fall to the dark side. He should betray the Jedi Order. He should have a wife who is pregnant with twins when he is defeated by Kenobi and permanently disfigured and maimed. Obi-Wan Kenobi should be a well-respected and exceptionally talented Jedi (though not on Anakin's savant level), and should become a general in the Republic armed forces during the Clone Wars (where he should fight with Anakin and Bail Organa). He should train Anakin to be a Jedi Knight, and have difficulty, and eventually fail. Palpatine should be a politician and aristocrat, a subtle and seemingly brilliant but unassuming man. Secretly he is a Sith Lord and leader of the Sith, and a secret engineer of the crises and wars afflicting and breaking down the Republic, destroying his potential rivals, and serving as a strawman threat for him to oppose and overcome, justifying his monopoly on power and unprecedented popularity and prestige. He should rise - unpredictably - to power as head of the Republic. He should be regarded as savior of the galaxy and civilization. He should be fantastically popular. He should be spontaneously and popularly acclaimed Emperor. He should become an unlimited despot as Emperor, either upon accession or in short order. He should be a narcissist and prime mover par excellence, who develops a fixation with Anakin Skywalker because of his unmeasurable potential. He should befriend and seduce Anakin to the dark side of the Force, who becomes his prime agent in prosecuting his war against the Jedi Order. The Jedi Order should serve in the Clone Wars and collaborate with Palpatine until its too late, upon which they, weakened, are hunted down with the assistance of Anakin Skywalker and destroyed.

Ideas for the Clone Wars. Perhaps the factions are dependent on clones due to a lack of a developed and quickly mobilized military complex? Even the Republic becomes dependent on them, giving the cloners untold power. Then the cloners themselves make bids for power, and the clones themselves become unstable and rebellious. Therefore there's popular urge to ban cloning after the wars (though secretly Palpatine retains cloning programs).

Dark times? What happens here? I'm unsure. Possibly anti-Jedi progroms and resistance be conservative and liberal factions to Palpatine's reforms and movements? A difficult recovery? Does Palpatine win the heart with the wars, then convert the soul with the reconstruction?

The Empire. Basically as previously occurred. Palpatine acclaimed Emperor. Jedi are proscribed. Anakin falls and helps hunt them down and destroy them.

How long are the wars? How do they happen? How is Palpatine elected? How long does he serve?

One problem I have is there is just so much material to cover with only three installments, and I think the actual PT suffered from this as well. The OT need only depict the Empire as it exists, the Rebels trying to defeat it, and the journey of Luke Skywalker, supported by his allies, to become a Jedi and challenge his father. It cannot wrap up the Empire, or even Palpatine really, which is why we have the post-ROTJ EU. In the PT, you need really to show what the "more civilized age" was like well before the Clone Wars; you need to show the Clone Wars beginning, escalation, climax, and resolution; you need to show the "Dark Times" when things get ugly or rough and Palpatine's power increases, and then you need to show the Empire being formed. You need to show Anakin's discovery, his fighting in the war, his training, his relationship with Obi-Wan, his relationship with Palpatine, and his fall and betrayal of the Jedi. You need to show the Jedi fighting, and you need to see their purge. You need to see the Senate and the fall of the Republic. You need to see the clones and what that was all about. You need to see the Sith.

I'm beginning to think maybe the PT should be narrow focused on just the Fall of Anakin specifically, like Galvatron says (paralleling the Rise of Luke), and the rest be left to PT-EU and pre-prequels (stories that are to the PT what the TTT and DE were to the OT).

I see it that the era is broken into three epochs. The Clone Wars. The Dark Times. The Empire.

I don't generally dispute or disagree with any of the above. I would say that there is not need to make the Clone Wars and the Dark Times different things. To me they are symptons of the same aspect, in otherwords they are the same thing.

Like I have said before, Episode 1 is in the Clone Wars. Episode 2 should be Clone Wars and birth of Empire. Episode 3 is in the Empire. As is 4, 5 and 6 (but they don't matter in this discussion).

Palpatine should become Chancellor in one episode and Emperor in another. And Anakin should duel Obi-Wan in I think the final episode. This will also see the Purge go from a general "hey, if you can kill Jedi, that would great" to a "KILL ALL JEDI" point.

What needs to happen? Anakin Skywalker should be discovered and recognized for a man of stupefyingly unique and exceptional talent. He should become a hero and leader fighting in the Wars and against the enemies of the Republic (and Palpatine). He should be tempted by and fall to the dark side. He should betray the Jedi Order. He should have a wife who is pregnant with twins when he is defeated by Kenobi and permanently disfigured and maimed.

Obi-Wan Kenobi should be a well-respected and exceptionally talented Jedi (though not on Anakin's savant level), and should become a general in the Republic armed forces during the Clone Wars (where he should fight with Anakin and Bail Organa). He should train Anakin to be a Jedi Knight, and have difficulty, and eventually fail.

Palpatine should be a politician and aristocrat, a subtle and seemingly brilliant but unassuming man. Secretly he is a Sith Lord and leader of the Sith, and a secret engineer of the crises and wars afflicting and breaking down the Republic, destroying his potential rivals, and serving as a strawman threat for him to oppose and overcome, justifying his monopoly on power and unprecedented popularity and prestige. He should rise - unpredictably - to power as head of the Republic. He should be regarded as savior of the galaxy and civilization. He should be fantastically popular. He should be spontaneously and popularly acclaimed Emperor. He should become an unlimited despot as Emperor, either upon accession or in short order. He should be a narcissist and prime mover par excellence, who develops a fixation with Anakin Skywalker because of his unmeasurable potential. He should befriend and seduce Anakin to the dark side of the Force, who becomes his prime agent in prosecuting his war against the Jedi Order.

The Jedi Order should serve in the Clone Wars and collaborate with Palpatine until its too late, upon which they, weakened, are hunted down with the assistance of Anakin Skywalker and destroyed.

I agree. At no point in anythign you say in the above quote do I not like, have a problem with, or are concerned with. Everything you say makes sense, works, and sounds pretty near perfect. Its close to what currently exists but slightly changed to make things better.

Ideas for the Clone Wars. Perhaps the factions are dependent on clones due to a lack of a developed and quickly mobilized military complex? Even the Republic becomes dependent on them, giving the cloners untold power. Then the cloners themselves make bids for power, and the clones themselves become unstable and rebellious. Therefore there's popular urge to ban cloning after the wars (though secretly Palpatine retains cloning programs).

And here we come to the issue we need to decide on. What is the Clone in Clone Wars. Is it going to be like the Clones of the official Clone Wars or are we changing things up, as long as there are clones.

Your point of Clones being on both side makes sense and I don't have a problem with it. They should be nasty, they should betray people in some areas, give a bad name to cloning, and they should be numerous.

Dark times? What happens here? I'm unsure. Possibly anti-Jedi progroms and resistance be conservative and liberal factions to Palpatine's reforms and movements? A difficult recovery? Does Palpatine win the heart with the wars, then convert the soul with the reconstruction?

I personally would just roll the Dark Times point in your history into both the Clone Wars and the Empire section. I don't think it should be its own separate section of history.

The Empire. Basically as previously occurred. Palpatine acclaimed Emperor. Jedi are proscribed. Anakin falls and helps hunt them down and destroy them.

In my mind the end of Episode 2 and all of Episode 3 and above. The Purge occurs in Episode 3.

How long are the wars? How do they happen? How is Palpatine elected? How long does he serve?

I think we decided on 40 years for the Clone Wars? At least that is what I was thinking of.

I think that Palpatine should be elected in the way that he was elected in the origonal movie. It works, why should be change things. Something happens to the planets in his sector, the ruler comes to the capital, he is able to declare that he can fix things, and so he is made Chancellor.

I would say that Episode 1 will be 10 years before Episode 2 and Episode 2 is when he is made Emperor. So technically, he serves as a Chancellor for 10 years before becoming Emperor. We can make the length of service for Chancellor be anything we want do to the fact that war already exists by the time he becomes Chancellor.

At least, I think that the Clone Wars should have broken out already. I think that it doesn't reach its major point until Palpatine becomes ruler. But due to his polticial nature nobody blames him for the increasing scope of the war. In fact they turn to him to aid in the ending of it.

One problem I have is there is just so much material to cover with only three installments, and I think the actual PT suffered from this as well.

The OT need only depict the Empire as it exists, the Rebels trying to defeat it, and the journey of Luke Skywalker, supported by his allies, to become a Jedi and challenge his father. It cannot wrap up the Empire, or even Palpatine really, which is why we have the post-ROTJ EU.

In the PT, you need really to show what the "more civilized age" was like well before the Clone Wars; you need to show the Clone Wars beginning, escalation, climax, and resolution; you need to show the "Dark Times" when things get ugly or rough and Palpatine's power increases, and then you need to show the Empire being formed.

You need to show Anakin's discovery, his fighting in the war, his training, his relationship with Obi-Wan, his relationship with Palpatine, and his fall and betrayal of the Jedi.

You need to show the Jedi fighting, and you need to see their purge. You need to see the Senate and the fall of the Republic. You need to see the clones and what that was all about. You need to see the Sith.

You guys wanted to make the Clone Wars 40 years or so long, so now we are stuck with certain problems.

We also have only 3 Episodes that we can decalre the official Episodes 1, 2 and 3 of Star Wars.

I say that Episode 1 is meeting Anakin as well as Palpatine becoming Chancellor. Anakin will be a fighter because the galaxy at large is already fighting.

Episode 2 is Palpatine becoming Emperor, Anakin falling close to the Dark Side but at the same time still being able to hide the fact that he is from his loved ones and the galaxy.

Episode 3 will have Anakin become Darth Vader. The Duel will occur. Then after the Duel the Purge will occur. Luke and Leia are born and head to the planets they go to.

Or we could make Episode 1 be before the Clone Wars start with a kid Anakin, just like the actual movies. We meet him, he goes to Coruscant and starts getting trained.

Your points are well made, but it is a problem that we have and we need to figure out how to solve it.

Here is an idea. You all want to show the galaxy before the Clone Wars hit it, before it causes problems and darkness to step in.

Couldn't we say that by the time of Episode 1 the Clone Wars is a Outer Rim only thing. It hasn't reached the center of civilization yet. So we get to see planets taht are at the height if civilization, of respectiability, before the war has truly effected them. The Naboo Crisis will be the first indications that the War is not staying to the fringes of galactic civilziation.

Episode 2 will see the War actually reaching the Core of the Galaxy as the planet of Alderran or Coruscant are attacked and invaded by enemy forces. The resutl of this is that the galaxy at large demands that what must be done must be done - handign over authority to Palpatine.

Episode 3 is after the Empire rises and its into its 10th year or so. At this time Anakin truly and compltely falls, he gives into anger. Padme runs. Obi-Wan and Anakin fight, the Duel, and Anakin becoems Darth Vader. As it gets towards its end the Purge starts happening.

I'm beginning to think maybe the PT should be narrow focused on just the Fall of Anakin specifically, like Galvatron says (paralleling the Rise of Luke), and the rest be left to PT-EU and pre-prequels (stories that are to the PT what the TTT and DE were to the OT).

Using the ideas I presented here allow us to capture exactly what we need to capture - the power, decadence and ancient nature of the galaxy, the horrors of the Clone Wars, the rise of Palpatine, the destruction of the Jedi, and the Fall of Anakin into Darth Vader.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Dark times? What happens here? I'm unsure. Possibly anti-Jedi progroms and resistance be conservative and liberal factions to Palpatine's reforms and movements? A difficult recovery? Does Palpatine win the heart with the wars, then convert the soul with the reconstruction?

I'm not clear on how the so-called "dark times" are supposed to be distinct from the Empire. When both are mentioned by Obi-Wan in ANH it's more or less interchangeably. He seems to use the latter as a symptom of the former. IOW, the dark times are ongoing by ANH. That said, I do imagine that the immediate postwar period was extremely difficult, especially for those formally arrayed against the Republic. Are you thinking of violent reprisals? Draconian punitive measures? Or something more like the US Civil War, with the responsible parties being given a figurative slap on the hand and placed right back in power?

Sorry, 14 pages is quite a bit to read and my internet is limited (at work right now) but I kind of wound up doing a hell of a lot of retconning for my fic Intergalactic Alliance already, which coincidentally also uses Vector Prime as the departure point (although there was an earlier departure at the Outbound Flight).

I can lend notes or any other help if anyone wants it.

I think I'm pretty much in favor of focusing the PT on the "Fall of Anakin" and covering the Late Republic, Clone Wars, Dark Times/Rise of the Empire, Great Purge "big picture" in supporting materials. I think an analogy with the OT points out the difficulty with incorporating everything. Arguably the big problem with TPM is it takes us to a relatively meaningless stage of Anakin's character development in order to give us exposition on galacticopolitics, and doesn't do all that good of a job. I think the supporting materials, our PT EU, can do that. Imagine if the OT took all the breaks the PT does to cover Palpatine's machinations on Coruscant. Even the dissolution of the Senate is just referred to as a throwaway line.

Crayz9000

I think it would be great to see your notes. They might help us to come up with exact specifications that we need for various things. So yeah, it would be cool to read them.

And yeah, I know, 14 pages is a huge amount of information. I wish we had considered splitting things off into variant posts back in page 4 or 5 or 6 and 7.

---

Primus,

Why throw away all of the things we could cover just because it might not be as easy as it seems. I think they can fit, I have shown repeately various examples of how they can be fit, be organized, and work. We should consider things like that rather than just removing it all and focusing on Anakin Skywalker. The violence, the expansions, the battles, the poltiics are what makes the PT so different and in my view more entertaining, than the OT.

I don't care that the OT had a throwaway line in the movie. We are not constrained by what he was decades ago. If we can do it, we should do it. If we can fit it (and we can) we should fit it in.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I'm beginning to think maybe the PT should be narrow focused on just the Fall of Anakin specifically, like Galvatron says (paralleling the Rise of Luke), and the rest be left to PT-EU and pre-prequels (stories that are to the PT what the TTT and DE were to the OT).

Can we skip the romance too? If Anakin is anything like Vader (and he should be), then he's no Han Solo. It's fun to watch a devil-may-care sardonic scoundrel type woo the uptight rich bitch, but I have no desire to see Anakin meet, fall in love and marry the mother of his twin children.

By all means, let him be happily married by Episode 1 and let his wife be some feisty ex-soldier for all I care, but spare us the love story.

And I still think Yoda should be left out of it entirely.

Vympel never got back to me. Can someone PM a mod who ever visits PSW?

How about this, I might be able to set up a EUficWiki so that the collaboration can happen there. It's a little tough to collaborate on a forum sometimes given the formatting of the posts.

Galvatron

There is nothing wrong with the romance if it is done properly. If they are adults then they won't have the uppity thing that they do. And if Jedi can marry then they don't need to hide it. I think things like the romance are important.

As is Yoda. Yoda needs to stay in my opinion.

I think he should get married later on in Episode 2. He meets her in Episode 1 and is married to her in Episode 2. Their romance occurs off screen.

The love story is not bad when done right.

I say this over and over again, and I will say it over and over agon as long as I am in the project - why throw away things that are in their for no reason then they are not exactly what we want. If it fits, if it works, then it should stay.

Primus,

Aren't you are mod, I mean I don't know where your authority on the site lies, but don't you have mod powers.

On another point, did you by any chance actually read the ideas and thoughts and setting material that I have presented both in the part about Episode 1 and now, just above. Because I think those ideas could actually work if implemented properly.

Galvatron wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I'm beginning to think maybe the PT should be narrow focused on just the Fall of Anakin specifically, like Galvatron says (paralleling the Rise of Luke), and the rest be left to PT-EU and pre-prequels (stories that are to the PT what the TTT and DE were to the OT).

Can we skip the romance too? If Anakin is anything like Vader (and he should be), then he's no Han Solo. It's fun to watch a devil-may-care sardonic scoundrel type woo the uptight rich bitch, but I have no desire to see Anakin meet, fall in love and marry the mother of his twin children.

By all means, let him be happily married by Episode 1 and let his wife be some feisty ex-soldier for all I care, but spare us the love story.

And I still think Yoda should be left out of it entirely.

I'm starting slide (the dark side?) to your perspective on a lot of this, as I starting really thinking about shoving all this shit into the PT, and how utterly excessive, impossible, and unnecessary it was (when you compare to the OT).

I think Yoda should be peripheral, I wouldn't mind seeing him since he's supposed to be close to/Master of Obi-Wan and the other major survivor of the Purge. The front-and-center leader and personification of the old Jedi would be Mace Windu, who would represent both their flaws and nobility. Kind of a standard-barer.

Another idea is that the Clone War (singular) of the Prequel Trilogy is the latest, greatest and final in the series of conflicts, like Clone War III, or something. Obi-Wan is a veteran but Anakin is not. That way, you can have a distinct, overarching military plot like the OT and canon PT did, while keeping the plurality and broad impact of the Clone Wars (plural).

Crayz9000

I think that might be a very interesting and useful idea. People would be able to use the discussion area to talk about specific articles. Others could edit articles (with proper notes on why they are editing). And things could be organized. Pages for timelines, glossaries, articles, stories and all that could be placed there in a very organized fashion.

Probably after they are discussed on the forums for a little while first I would think. But it does sound like a good idea.

I'm with Galvatron. His wife might be there, but it should be damn peripheral to his main arc, just like Luke's on-again, off-again attraction to Leia is to his main story. It should be about Anakin, the hero, falling from grace. It should be a romantic/classical tragedy to the OT's fairy tale. To me, forcing all this ancillary shit in would be like moving Luke's training scenes with Yoda aside to make room for political discussions amongst the Privy Council on Coruscant or to show battles going on for no reason. We didn't decide this project should integrate all the big-picture and non-forefront events into the OT itself, we let them be external and supporting and continuing works. We should do the same with the PT.

Yoda would handle things on Corsucant. Windu would handle things at the front.

Palpatine handles things from Coruscant. Tarkin handles things at the front.

That particular aspect works.

On the issue of what is in the Episodes. Its not that much actually. What the Episodes are is particularly highly important battles and points the very great and ongoing war. They are not everything, not even a lot, just a highly important thing.

Episode 1 is when Anakin is introduced to both his fuiture wife and the war that he takles aso great a part in. Its also when Palpatine becomes Chancellor. Also, its at this point that this incarnation of the war starts getting heated up again.

Episode 2 is when Anakin decides to get married with Padme. The war actually directly touches the Core, with Coruscant or Alderran being hit in an attack. The galaxy then makes Palpatine Emperor.

Episode 3 is Anakin's fall to the Dark Side completely. Padme's pregnancy is full term but she is scared. The Duel happens. Then afterward the Purge begins.

How is this too complicated. It fits, its complete, and it works.

Darth Raptor,

I agree with this. I think that Episode 1 should see this incarnation of the ongoing Clone Wars reach a new high. A formerlly save world is attacked.

So yeah, the multiple incarnation war makes a lot of sense. That is why it is the Clone Wars and not the Clone War.

Primus,

To show his fall from grace we need to show his high points, when he is at his best, and most light filled. To that we should show more than him in battle - we need to show that he can love. Not the crappy dime store romance love, but real love. That slowly gets twisted and corrupted as the movies go on.

I Think he should meet her in Episode 1, marry her in Episode 2 and she gives birth in Episode 3 (post-Empire rise).

The things that I am trying to include are what is included int he PT already. I am not adding anything new. I am modifying the way they are presented to make more sense. All that I have in my thoughts are exactly that which is shown in the official versions.

I actually think the Wars should be over, or nearly over and winding down, and the PT (politically, in the background) is about pursuing holdouts and rebels and opposition or sabotage to the postwar reforms and consolidation of Palpatine. I think Palpatine should be in power already, and I think he should be working on preparing to be emperor which happens in the last movie, and the only time the movie covers the political events front-and-center.

I disagree. What your saying is to take out everything and anything that I consider interesting about the PT. To throw it all out the window, not to try and rehabilitate it, just to throw it out and start fresh. I did not agree to that. I agreed to try and make that which doesn't fit fit. And that does not include throwing it all out in the garbage.

Whether you like it or not the movies are the movies. And I think we should go with as close to them as we can without loosing our point of trying to make things make sense.

I should make note that Episodes 1, 2 and 3 are not EU, they are now a part of the core of Star Wars. And while I do not have a problem modifying them or changing them, thowing them out entirely is not something that I plan on doing.

I'm NOT saying throw it out, I'm saying write supporting stories, histories, and stuff like that around the PT. But don't overwhelm the content of the PT with the side-stuff and back story. I'm saying take stuff that fills up the PT to the exclusion of the Fall of Anakin story and put it in supporting works.

I agree that the wars should be winding down, but I also think they should end with a bang. In my prequels, Anakin rebels when Tarkin orders the punitive BDZing of Mandalore after Obi-Wan's army takes out their shield generators. That could be adapted to these prequels.

And I'm saying that what the PT Episodes need to have within them are things similar to what they have in the orgional and real ones.

Which also includes some political and romance as well as the combat and the fall of Anakin.

Palpatine and the Empire's rise is as much iconic and important as the fall of Darth Vader. Same with the Jedi and all that. Things like that are major points and should be included in the three main episodes.

I disagree with everything you just said there.

Admiral Felire wrote:And I'm saying that what the PT Episodes need to have within them are things similar to what they have in the orgional and real ones.

Why? If the material is provided regardless, who cares if its in one package or another?

Admiral Felire wrote:Which also includes some political and romance as well as the combat and the fall of Anakin.

Episode I practically has Anakin as a supporting cast member.

Admiral Felire wrote:Palpatine and the Empire's rise is as much iconic and important as the fall of Darth Vader. Same with the Jedi and all that. Things like that are major points and should be included in the three main episodes.

But that's not really what the stories of the MOVIES are about. The OT hardly deals with the end of the Empire or how the Jedi will be brought back, etc. I'm not saying this stuff won't be shown, but more peripherally. And detailed in supporting works (just like the final defeat of Palpatine, the victory of the New Republic, the rebuilding of the Jedi Order, and the final collapse of the Empire is all told outside the OT). We can have the equivalent of what the Thrawn Trilogy and Dark Empire were to the OT take place before the PT and set up the Clone Wars, the rise of Palpatine, and the decline of the Republic and Jedi.

Whatever happens, there was one part to the whole series that I did like -- the movies were basically told through R2 and C-3PO. It doesn't have to be heavy-handed, but it should still be there.