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Karmic Knight wrote:And I've claimed Kenya.

Do you have lions in Kenya?

Steve wrote:New map, still preliminary.

http://stgjr.com/sdnw3/mainmap.png

Among other things, I still haven't carved Slacker out because I want to make sure of the agreed upon border there. Added standing colonial claims for a few countries, well, where they'd show up. PM me if there are difficulties.

*falls asleep at keyboard*

P.S.: Checked PMs, Slack's dropping out.

*falls asleep again*

I've got Laos, Cambodia, and Tahiti as well.

Siege, Shady, Stas, let's continue the discussion at the thread in the usergroup.

You're not going to form another Cato, are you?

Thanas wrote:You're not going to form another Cato, are you?

Indeed that'd be silly, how can good Socialist Republics ally with decadent Byzantine monarchists?

Just in case anybody is willing to play as Poland, I would be willing to cede all territory of Galizia east of Przemyśli to him/her.

Thanas wrote:You're not going to form another Cato, are you?

Er .. No. It's just that it's easier than sending PMs left right center.

Norseman wrote:

Thanas wrote:You're not going to form another Cato, are you?

Indeed that'd be silly, how can good Socialist Republics ally with decadent Byzantine monarchists?

The Senate runs most of the country by the 20th century, while the Emperor retains control of the military and foreign policy.

Fin, sorry, I misunderstood things. I thought there was a new usergroup for this game.

Karmic, you did claim those sections of West Africa, and for now I'm coloring French West Africa on the map in your color, but I'll remind you that Raj also put a claim on Liberia and environs for his nation as a former US colony and until we confirm that I'm leaving Liberia unmarked.

If I may ask, did you intentionally abandon the East Indies or something? Kinda need to know since I'm claiming the Bird's Head Peninsula in New Guinea, part of what was Dutch New Guinea.

Stas, Norse, map changed. I did say I was sleepy last night.

Baerne, added Laos and Cambodia, but Tahiti frankly wouldn't show up on this map on account of being so small. Or at the least it isn't on the map.

So, does any body else want to invest in the Panama canal? I'm not sure that German investement alone would be sufficient, even with my increased industrial capacity...

Ryan Thunder wrote:So, does any body else want to invest in the Panama canal? I'm not sure that German investement alone would be sufficient, even with my increased industrial capacity...

I maybe might be interested, only if there's a justifiable reason, and some degree of commercial interests in return.

If you invest as much as Germany, Germany would have no objection to you having the same share of canal profits as Germany does (assuming it turns any profit).

Though ultimately, this is for Ryan to decide as it is his land.

Ryan Thunder wrote:So, does any body else want to invest in the Panama canal? I'm not sure that German investement alone would be sufficient, even with my increased industrial capacity...

Given the other canal, if there is one, would be owned by potential enemy Mexico, Cascadia would be interested in joining Germany in the canal project.

A modification of what Thanas suggested;

- Partners will assist in canal construction with engineers and/or monetary contributions.
- Partners will file affidavits stating the general cargo of ships.
- Partners will help sharing the maintenance costs. (Comment: Columbia will use tariffs to cover some of the costs and will, of course, pay some portion of them itself)

In return, Columbia offers the following guarantees:
- Partners will be allowed to use the canal, unless they go to war with Columbia or an ally of Columbia.
- Vessels belonging to a partner nation will not be searched prior to entering the canal.
- A "canal board" will be convened at least annually to discuss and vote on issues pertaining to the canal. Each partner recieves one vote. Columbia also recieves one vote.
- If a nation is at war with a partner, it may not use the canal unless it is also a partner nation.
- Columbia will set aside a new territorial zone as "canal lands", over which the "canal board" will be allowed to have jurisdiction.

Bear in mind that "canal lands" are indisputably sovereign Columbian territory and territorial waters, and Columbia reserves the right to veto any motions by partners to change that.

And, of course, these are open to discussion.

Thanas wrote:Just in case anybody is willing to play as Poland, I would be willing to cede all territory of Galizia east of Przemyśli to him/her.

Which leaves you with Krakow, which is literally the historical capital of Poland. It's like someone playing the United States without Philadelphia or Russia without St. Petersburg.

I get you're paranoid about your borders. But really, dude, you've got the industrial regions of Italy, ALL of Germany, Austria, Bohemia, and various bits in between. I presented the entire Polish proposal to Steve as a border state more closely aligned with Germany than anyone else because of the Damn Commies, he liked it as it got you an ally. You're really not willing to give up territory that would make a potential ally viable but would, I'm sure, be plagued with revolutionary movements and rebellions if there's an independent Polish state and they're not in it. Your main rival there has been willing to give up well over twice the territory you've been asked to give up.

I'm sorry, I just have no sympathy for what you're being asked to do OOC considering the absolute excess in territory your Germany owns above and beyond what was really considered Germany.

I already presented a plan that would let you have Krakow to Steve and would still have my border secure.

EDIT: Or rather, Steve came up with the idea and I replied to it.

Ryan Thunder wrote:A modification of what Thanas suggested;

- Partners will assist in canal construction with engineers and/or monetary contributions.
- Partners will file affidavits stating the general cargo of ships.
- Partners will help sharing the maintenance costs. (Comment: Columbia will use tariffs to cover some of the costs and will, of course, pay some portion of them itself)

In return, Columbia offers the following guarantees:
- Partners will be allowed to use the canal, unless they go to war with Columbia or an ally of Columbia.
- Vessels belonging to a partner nation will not be searched prior to entering the canal.
- A "canal board" will be convened at least annually to discuss and vote on issues pertaining to the canal. Each partner recieves one vote. Columbia also recieves one vote.
- If a nation is at war with a partner, it may not use the canal unless it is also a partner nation.
- Columbia will set aside a new territorial zone as "canal lands", over which the "canal board" will be allowed to have jurisdiction.

Bear in mind that "canal lands" are indisputably sovereign Columbian territory and territorial waters, and Columbia reserves the right to veto any motions by partners to change that.

And, of course, these are open to discussion.

I am fine with a lot of those modificaitons, but I think the Canal board should still have the power to chose what nation can use the channel. For example, if Nation A acts agressively or commits massacres, I would like for the canal board to have the power to block it.

If the new rules still have the canal board as deciding authority and I misread them, my apologies.

Thanas wrote:I already presented a plan that would let you have Krakow to Steve and would still have my border secure.

EDIT: Or rather, Steve came up with the idea and I replied to it.

And Ponzan? That's been sort of missed in all this.

What I really don't understand is why you feel the need to have a defensive frontier in the open floodplains of Poland when you could pull back to borders that are still easily geographically defended-the Carpathian mountains and a rather large river, and in the process trade a border with a large, angry Commie Russia with a generally allied Polish state that's got nowhere near as many dudes.

I really don't see why asking for the 1919 western border is at all unreasonable, with the obvious exception of Germany retaining Danzig. I think that's a completely reasonable sacrifice on your part and that's my firm negotiating position. I don't think it's at all unfair, especially when you've gone and doubled the German empire's territory from where they were historically.

Thanas wrote:If the new rules still have the canal board as deciding authority and I misread them, my apologies.

That was my intention, yes. No need to apologize. I forgot to specify that the board cannot deny Columbia the right to use the canal or anything else similarly nonsensical that I haven't thought of, even if only because their rulings are enforced by the Columbian armed forces.

Slacker wrote:

Thanas wrote:I already presented a plan that would let you have Krakow to Steve and would still have my border secure.

EDIT: Or rather, Steve came up with the idea and I replied to it.

And Ponzan? That's been sort of missed in all this.

What I really don't understand is why you feel the need to have a defensive frontier in the open floodplains of Poland when you could pull back to borders that are still easily geographically defended-the Carpathian mountains and a rather large river, and in the process trade a border with a large, angry Commie Russia with a generally allied Polish state that's got nowhere near as many dudes.

A standing army of 1 million is less of a relative threat than two standing armies of 1mil+ whatever you are holding.

Frankly, I do not know you as a player. I don't know whether you would drag me into a war with Russia or whether you would be content to play as Poland and not expand. I do not know if you are the backstabbing sort and relative to Stas I have far more to loose. Because if you expand, there are really only two choices - my territory or Stas' territory. As I present the far more rewarding areas for you to attack and I can focus far less relative military strength than he does....well, I'd rather fear that I'd be the first target of your expansionism.

I know Shady. Even when playing a villain in SNDWARS he can be trusted as a player. I know Baerne. I know Fin (although I know him less than the others, but in SDNWars he has been a reasonable player).

Slacker, what's the deal with Poznan? I'd even give you Black Sea access so your state is viable. Leave Thanas' lands alone, he's not sharing

I can vouch for Slacker as a player, as can anyone who's participated over at The Frontier or some of the Spacebattles games.

I find it incredibly difficult to believe that a Poland would exist without the huge chunks of, well, ethnic Poland that Germany owned pre-1914. Moreover, I don't see it as a viable state culturally without those regions. None of the regions I desire had anything less than a 70-80% ethnic Polish majority and were in fact PROMISED to the Polish nationals in the event Germany won WW1.

As for me as a player? I've participated in these sorts of things going back to 'Oh Big Steve'. I've run countless games on the Frontier, which exists solely for these sorts of things, and on Spacebattles. I wrote the ruleset for Ad Astra and a few other games on the Frontier and have been head moderator for a game that at one point had thirty five active players. Steve will vouch that not only do I know what I'm doing, I'm not the sort of player who goes and backstabs other players. I generally always play the Good Guy (tm). I just have an unnatural attachment to the underdogs of Eastern Europe because it's what I focused on in my early days as a history major. And my wife's from Kiev.

I just don't think what I'm asking here is unreasonable or unfair. Mildly annoying for you? Maybe. But the other guy here's been giving me huge chunks of his territory without nary a blink and you're hemming and hawing about much smaller chunks of territory you'd probably be better off in the long run not owning anyway. That's my perspective on this, so I'm really having a hard time finding sympathy that I'm asking for a larger chunk of your territory. For god's sake man, you've annexed the vast majority of the Austro-Hungarian empire and Northern Italy, and nobody said boo about it.

Slacker wrote:I find it incredibly difficult to believe that a Poland would exist without the huge chunks of, well, ethnic Poland that Germany owned pre-1914. Moreover, I don't see it as a viable state culturally without those regions. None of the regions I desire had anything less than a 70-80% ethnic Polish majority and were in fact PROMISED to the Polish nationals in the event Germany won WW1.

Whenever did the german government agree to that in the OTL? And I mean a binding statement by the OHL or the Kaiser or the Government. Not the sort of promises nations throw to gullible people.

As for me as a player? I've participated in these sorts of things going back to 'Oh Big Steve'. I've run countless games on the Frontier, which exists solely for these sorts of things, and on Spacebattles. I wrote the ruleset for Ad Astra and a few other games on the Frontier and have been head moderator for a game that at one point had thirty five active players. Steve will vouch that not only do I know what I'm doing, I'm not the sort of player who goes and backstabs other players. I generally always play the Good Guy (tm). I just have an unnatural attachment to the underdogs of Eastern Europe because it's what I focused on in my early days as a history major. And my wife's from Kiev. I just don't think what I'm asking here is unreasonable or unfair. Mildly annoying for you? Maybe. But the other guy here's been giving me huge chunks of his territory without nary a blink and you're hemming and hawing about much smaller chunks of territory you'd probably be better off in the long run not owning anyway. That's my perspective on this, so I'm really having a hard time finding sympathy that I'm asking for a larger chunk of your territory. For god's sake man, you've annexed the vast majority of the Austro-Hungarian empire and Northern Italy, and nobody said boo about it.

That's nice. You're not getting an inch of Prussian territory unless Steve overrules me.

Steve wrote:Karmic, you did claim those sections of West Africa, and for now I'm coloring French West Africa on the map in your color, but I'll remind you that Raj also put a claim on Liberia and environs for his nation as a former US colony and until we confirm that I'm leaving Liberia unmarked.

I thought Raj became a Chile/Argentina mix because he knew the history of South America better?

I apologize if he did not.

If I may ask, did you intentionally abandon the East Indies or something? Kinda need to know since I'm claiming the Bird's Head Peninsula in New Guinea, part of what was Dutch New Guinea. :P

It depends on Klavohunter, who would have pushed the Dutch out of the East Indies. If Klavohunter allowed the Dutch East Indies Company to operate until the Revolution, the DEI would be a target during the Second Trade Union War, and I would lay claims to some East Indian Islands, but I have not heard back from Klavohunter, so I do not know if it would be historically feasible to keep the DEI. If it was historically feasible, I would look into claiming the Islands east of Java.

So, if Klavohunter's nation kicked the DEIC out decades/centuries before the Revolution, than I am abandoning the East Indies, if not, I would look into some claims.