Scarlet-Spider vs Jedi

[SAMAS]

Consequences: Check again. We answered all your accusations.

You claimed that there wasn't enough recoil. We gave proof that the force of the blast was explosive, not just kinetic.

No, I claimed there was TOO MUCH RECOIL (and I'm Connor, try to keep your challengers straight. ) and that DBZers were incapable of handling it.

Yet, they do. When you're dealing with most Sci-Fi, physics takes a backseat. If they're shown doing something, it stands to reason that they're capable of doing the aforementioned thing.

Here's a hint: If a character fires a shot, with little visible recoil to himself, but when the target catches the same shot in his hands, and is pushed twenty feet back, and two feet into the ground, what does that mean? We asked you this question quite a few times, and you never answered it.

As for your "proof", you obviously know fuck-all about mass and energy. E=MC^2. ENERGY HAS MASS. A LOT OF ENERGY EQUALS ALOT OF MASS. The energies involving scattering a planets mass qualifies as ALOT OF ENERGY. Momentum is Mass x velocity.

Again I ask you, if a character can fire a shot with little recoil to himself, but hits the target with great mass, what does that mean?

And this is a common occurance in DBZ. A character fires a shot, with no more(and often much less) recoil than a shotgun, but when the shot hits, it drives the target though a small mountain.

It doesn't matter if they fire it like a bullet or a laser or fling it like a grenade (they do both, technically), it will STILL exhibit recoil (You do remember learning in science class that "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" right?)

Yet again, I ask you, if a character can fire a shot with little recoil to himself, but hits the target with great force, what does that mean?

You rejected that for no good reason. We gave you examples of Z-fighters blatantly ignoring the forces whipping around them, or even being projected at them.

1.) I gave you a good reason above. You inability to understand basic science (which has been demonstrated repeatedly before, I might add.) does not change this.

And We answered it each time.

Yet again, I ask you, if a character can fire a shot with little recoil to himself, but hits the target with great force, what does that mean?

You say I have little knowledge in physics, and you're actually partly right.

So give us a better fucking answer. If a character can fire a shot with little recoil to himself, but hits the target with great force, what does that mean?

With my limited knowledge, I figured that the Z warriors are simply using their Ki to counteract the recoil. If I'm so wrong, where's the correct answer?

And in case you missed it(again), the question is: If a character can fire a shot with little recoil to himself, but hits the target with great force, what does that mean?

2.) Did you even bother to quantify these forces or consider the MAGNITUDE? The recoil generated by a KT or MT level blast is not going to act on a body the same way as a planet-killing, or planet-shattering blast is.

And we already anwered it. The magnitude doesn't matter, because the characters are already shown dealing with it!! This is the part you fail to grasp.

Arbitrarily assuming that all blasts are planet-shattering by default (or a substantial fraction of it) and figuring because they are observed handling blasts without a problem does not work unless you prove those blasts are in fact of that magnitude to begin with.

We never said every single blast was planet-killing. The true planet-killers are the ones where the character tries to kill the enemy in one shot. In fact, those are the ones that are mentioned to be planet-killers are the ones counted as such.

Then you tried to get nitpicky, saying that even if they had the major effects, just because the details were ignored, they couldn't have done it. We said no kidding, as the animation crew were ignorant of all the details.

No. I never said that (maybe consequences did, but I did not.) Ignorance of the creators is not an excuse to ignore suspension of disbelif or science arbitrarily. I told you that you had one of two choices - either treat it as being inapplicable to analysis (meaning you can't go around claiming they generate the required levels of energy, since that requires suspension of disbelief),

Unless they actually do it.

or you obey suspension of disbelief and adhere to science. You don't get to ignore science and still pretend you are actually analyzing something as if it does obey suspension of disbelief.

Do you even know what Suspension of Disbelief is? That's when you ignore little things like the ones you're nitpicking, as long as the major points are still there. Like why the Death Star isn't sent spinning every time it fires its Superlaser. Or the lack of a huge moon-smashing shockwave, or even a cataclysmic rain of debris when the Death Star exploded over Endor. Or why Iceman can create a sixty-foot wall of ice and not flash-fry himself and everyone else in the area.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Fact: Spidey was taken down by a tranq dart trap

Wrong! Fact: Spider-Man survived poisons capable of killing a normal human being and recovered within minutes.

Fact: On numerous occasions, Spider-Man survived attacks lethal to normal human beings.

Fact: Kraven is an expect on producing various potions and poisons. At least once he used a potion of numb Spider-Man's spider-sense (ASM #34).

Fact: Tranquilizer is a broad enough term to include various sedatives.

Odds are, the the tranquilizers in the dart could have been lethal to a normal being.

Fact: Kraven's speed and strength are utterly irrelevant to the tranq dart trap, so your bringing them up is a pure red herring

Wrong again. Part of the reason why Spider-Man can dodge bullets is because his reaction times allows him to step out of the way before his opponent can point, aim, and shoot. If Spider-Man was fighting an opponent with similar reaction time, then he's lost most of his dodging capability and can be tracked.

Fact: Spidey reacted to the tranq dart trap too late, and couldn't move his body out of the way fast enough

As I said earlier, if his opponent can react and move as fast as Spider-Man, then Spider-Man will have trouble dodging his attacks.

Fact: this proves that your claims about Spidey's speed are exaggerated

There's too much reasonable doubt for it to prove anything, especially in light of all of the other incidences where Spider-Man did dodge his opponent's attacks.

Fact: Jedi can move impossibly fast for ground traction, thus requiring a TK push against some object such as a wall. Spidey does not have TK. He cannot accelerate the way the Jedi did in TPM.

Excuse, but Spider-Man has proven that he has enough traction for high rates of acceleration EVERY TIME HE STICKS TO THE WALL AND CEILING. IS THAT ENOUGH TRACTION FOR YOU?

Fact: Spidey lacks TK

That's the only thing you've manage to get right.

Fact: Spidey's strength is a few hundred times that of a typical human. A few hundred times the force necessary to crush a human trachea is nothing for a Jedi, since even journeyman Jedi could throw battledroids and superbattledroids weighing hundreds of pounds around like rag dolls.

Fact: When have anyone seen Jedi produce that much force TK besides Yoda and Luke? Never, not without using something like the Sith Temples on Yavin 4 to focus and amplify Force power.

Fact: your only response to all of this is to claim that Jedi will voluntarily avoid using their powers and use the bullshit logic that if A defeats B, then A must be more powerful than B (ignoring the question of whether B's defense is as good as his offense), or better yet, that Spidey must be faster than a bullet if he uses his spider-sense to avoid being hit by them (by this logic, Jedi are faster than blaster bolts, so you STILL lose).

It's funny how you use the EU as examples of Jedi Force powers even though the EU specifically states that a Jedi cannot use Force TK to physically attack an opponent or else he starts going on the Dark Side. Stop cherry picking what you want out of the EU.

[Typhonis 1]

Dodges lasers?? excuse me how the HELL does Spidey doge a weapon whos shot travels 186,000 miles per second?????

[Crazedwraith]

Dodges lasers?? excuse me how the HELL does Spidey doge a weapon whos shot travels 186,000 miles per second?????

Pre-co and reflexs. A second before the lasers fire he knows and is in motion. Incidently this is pure reflex wirh spider-sense and his reflexs he doges through hails on automatic, allowing his mind to come up with all thoose lovely one lines.

[Darth Wong]

Fact: Spidey was taken down by a tranq dart trap

Wrong! Fact: Spider-Man survived poisons capable of killing a normal human being and recovered within minutes.

Obviously, you are too stupid to recognize that the strength of the poison is irrelevant. The fact that he failed to dodge it is what matters. BTW, it is not "wrong" that he went down from a tranq dart trap; that happened, and you can't refute it, so you go after red herrings like the strength of the poison in the dart. Utterly pathetic.

Wrong again. Part of the reason why Spider-Man can dodge bullets is because his reaction times allows him to step out of the way before his opponent can point, aim, and shoot. If Spider-Man was fighting an opponent with similar reaction time, then he's lost most of his dodging capability and can be tracked.

Thank you. Since Jedi have precognition, which equates to a reaction time of less than zero seconds, by your own logic, they will counter his moves and win.

As I said earlier, if his opponent can react and move as fast as Spider-Man, then Spider-Man will have trouble dodging his attacks.

See above.

Fact: Jedi can move impossibly fast for ground traction, thus requiring a TK push against some object such as a wall. Spidey does not have TK. He cannot accelerate the way the Jedi did in TPM.

Excuse, but Spider-Man has proven that he has enough traction for high rates of acceleration EVERY TIME HE STICKS TO THE WALL AND CEILING. IS THAT ENOUGH TRACTION FOR YOU?

No, it isn't. Perhaps your brain is not capable of grasping this, but in order to stick to a wall, you only need force equivalent to 1 G of acceleration. You do not need force equivalent to 60-100 G's. Yet again, you demonstrate your staggering ignorance of elementary physics. This has always been a problem for you; your knowledge of physics appears to be hovering around the grade 6 level. Perhaps some remedial courses are in order, hmm?

Fact: Spidey's strength is a few hundred times that of a typical human. A few hundred times the force necessary to crush a human trachea is nothing for a Jedi, since even journeyman Jedi could throw battledroids and superbattledroids weighing hundreds of pounds around like rag dolls.

Fact: When have anyone seen Jedi produce that much force TK besides Yoda and Luke? Never, not without using something like the Sith Temples on Yavin 4 to focus and amplify Force power.

Read what you're quoting before you fire off one of your knee-jerk responses, you idiot. The Sith temples allowed them to throw a fleet of multi-billion ton warships at greater than lightspeed. That is a ridiculous amount of power, and far more than they need in this case. The example of throwing battledroids around like rag dolls is more than enough. You can crush a human's trachea with a few pounds applied to the right place, and if you multiply that by a few hundred, you've still got only a few hundred pounds, which is nothing for a Jedi. Any Jedi. And it's even easier if he goes after the carotid artery.

It's funny how you use the EU as examples of Jedi Force powers even though the EU specifically states that a Jedi cannot use Force TK to physically attack an opponent or else he starts going on the Dark Side. Stop cherry picking what you want out of the EU.

Stop being an idiot. A Jedi can voluntarily use that aspect of the Force if necessary, and they have done so on numerous occasions, both in the films and in the EU. This is like saying that a Buddhist police officer will never fire his gun, so he can be beaten by a twelve year old with a swiss army knife.

By the way, the canon AOTC novelization clearly shows that it is perfectly normal for Jedi to use the Force during lightsabre battles, to push their opponents around. You lose. Again.

[Typhonis 1]

this is worse than a smg set to automatic this is a beam of energy that could theorwetically reach from the Earth to the Moon in less than 2 seconds at 40 feet theres no way he could dodge a laser

[SAMAS]

Re: Luke a Jedi?

Depending on when an how you look at it, both sides can be right.

First, and importantly, Luke Skywalker is not a true Jedi going by the standards of the Jedi Order. However, he is techically a Jedi, but definitely not a good example of a typical one.

Classically, Luke's training was prettty much "Too Little, Too Late." While typical Jedi were trained around the age of three to five, Luke was 16-17 when he started in A New Hope. He had less than a couple of days of tutelage under Kenobi, and had to go it alone until he met Yoda, which again was a very short time. In all, less than a month of anything resembling formal training.

In Practice, he was still unlike any Jedi. By the end of RotJ, he neither suppressed his emotions, nor let them control him. He was able to both harness his anger to defeat his father, then throw it away to spare his life afterwards. He also used abilities commonly not used by most Jedi, such as the disputed Force Grip/Choke(Wanna dispute this? Give me a canon example of a Jedi using it. I can give you a real good example of one not using it).

In the EU, on the other hand, the situation changes. As the re-trianing of new Jedi is being led by Luke Skywalker, the idea of what a typical Jedi is has altered.

So rather than continue this huge argument, why don't we just rule wether or not we're dealing with a canon or EU Jedi?

[Darth Wong]

Re: Luke a Jedi?

Depending on when an how you look at it, both sides can be right.

First, and importantly, Luke Skywalker is not a true Jedi going by the standards of the Jedi Order. However, he is techically a Jedi, but definitely not a good example of a typical one.

Classically, Luke's training was prettty much "Too Little, Too Late." While typical Jedi were trained around the age of three to five, Luke was 16-17 when he started in A New Hope. He had less than a couple of days of tutelage under Kenobi, and had to go it alone until he met Yoda, which again was a very short time. In all, less than a month of anything resembling formal training.

In Practice, he was still unlike any Jedi. By the end of RotJ, he neither suppressed his emotions, nor let them control him. He was able to both harness his anger to defeat his father, then throw it away to spare his life afterwards. He also used abilities commonly not used by most Jedi, such as the disputed Force Grip/Choke

Circular logic; this long-winded blather only works if you already believe that refusal to use Force TK is indeed a requirement of all Jedi. If it isn't, then Luke may not be a typical case of a Jedi, but that doesn't mean his Force choke (which he could only have learned if Yoda taught to him) goes against Jedi rules.

(Wanna dispute this? Give me a canon example of a Jedi using it. I can give you a real good example of one not using it).

No less of a Jedi than Yoda himself collected Dooku's Force lightning and threw it right back at him in AOTC, even though we know he's capable of dispersing it harmlessly. Canon proof that Jedi are willing to use the Force offensively against an organic target. And you have still failed to show that a droid does not count as an example of a sentient being (not to mention failing to address Anakin's Force wall in AOTC). If you're saying that you've found a situation where a Jedi could have used the Force but didn't, then I could just as easily find a hundred situations in war where something could have been done but wasn't. It doesn't mean it isn't possible.

In the EU, on the other hand, the situation changes. As the re-trianing of new Jedi is being led by Luke Skywalker, the idea of what a typical Jedi is has altered.

So rather than continue this huge argument, why don't we just rule wether or not we're dealing with a canon or EU Jedi?

Why don't we stop using bad logic instead?

[KK]

Obviously, you are too stupid to recognize that the strength of the poison is irrelevant. The fact that he failed to dodge it is what matters. BTW, it is not "wrong" that he went down from a tranq dart trap; that happened, and you can't refute it, so you go after red herrings like the strength of the poison in the dart. Utterly pathetic.

Holy donkey fuck.

How much of a lying asshole do you have to be to ignore my posts and then reply to C_M, when the posts of mine that you ignored pointed out your blatant bullshit in regards to the very reference you're still attempting to use?


I'm not even going to get into you YET A-FUCKING-GAIN using precog like only the Jedi has it.

Spider-Man has 40 times human reflexes ON TOP OF his spider-sense! Do I need to say it in another fucking language?

And of course, there's your blatant ignorance on the nature of Spider-Man's power to stick to walls. He forms a moleculat bond with objects. it has nothing to do with exerting counter gravatational forces.

[KK]

You lose, Wong. You fucking forefit.

When I call you on a blatant and deliberate LIE, and then you ignore me and continue to use the lie, you forefit any credibility you had.

No less of a Jedi than Yoda himself collected Dooku's Force lightning and threw it right back at him in AOTC, even though we know he's capable of dispersing it harmlessly. Canon proof that Jedi are willing to use the Force offensively against an organic target. And you have still failed to show that a droid does not count as an example of a sentient being (not to mention failing to address Anakin's Force wall in AOTC).

Great. You gave one example of Yoda using the Force defensively, one example of Anakin AKA the future DARTH FUCKING VADER, and you're still trying to say machines are sentient creatures when all throughout the movies it was thrown in our faces that they aren't thought of that way.

I don't know how the hell you managed to produce offspring when you don't display the testicular fortitude necessary to admit fault.

[KK]

Ok, Wong. The shit has hit the fan.

I'm calling BULLSHIT on your Kraven's Last Hunt reference. I had a suspicion that you left something out, but hadn't read the book in awhile and thought I might have been thinking of a different Kraven story.

But it has been confirmed. Earlier in the story, Kraven voodoo poisoned Spider-Man. Spidey said he felt like jungle drums were pounding in his head, and wondered to himself why he was off par.

"Tonight my mind has penetrated your essence. It feasts upon you, like maggots feasting upon a corpse."
-Kraven, Kraven's Last Hunt

Kraven had mucked with Spider-Man's mind before the tranq dart incident. Spider-Man's was hearing things and hallucinating, thus negating the spider-sense, and said himself that he was performing below par.

Let's get this straight.

You're using a scene where Spidey was poisoned, hallucinating, and performing physically below par and failed to dodge an elaborate trap as your argument for his speed.

-and-

You're using a scene where an entire group of Jedi amplified their power to an unknown degree with the Sith temples and channelled it through one of their number, who had to sacrifice his life, as your argument for the power of a single average Jedi.


And you have the gall to accuse me of being dishonest or unfair?

Own up, bitch.

[KK]

Dodges lasers?? excuse me how the HELL does Spidey doge a weapon whos shot travels 186,000 miles per second?????

How the Hell do Jedi see the future?










Point is they do, and he does.

[Darth Wong]

I'm calling BULLSHIT on your Kraven's Last Hunt reference. I had a suspicion that you left something out, but hadn't read the book in awhile and thought I might have been thinking of a different Kraven story.

But it has been confirmed. Earlier in the story, Kraven voodoo poisoned Spider-Man. Spidey said he felt like jungle drums were pounding in his head, and wondered to himself why he was off par.

Good. This is just as damning as the fact that the shroud of the Dark Side had fallen in AOTC. Yet, you act as though one completely eliminates the incident in question while the other does not. Explain, bitch.

And you have the gall to accuse me of being dishonest or unfair?

It is an accurate statement. You did precisely as I expected. You posted arguments based on AOTC while ignoring the fact that the Jedi were weak, and then screamed bloody murder when I did the EXACT SAME THING with Kraven's Last Hunt. What's the matter, bitch? You can dish it out but you can't take it?

Own up, bitch.

Sorry, but the only one with his ass in the air is you. You just admitted that you don't like the logic which you used to attack the Jedi, since you scream blue murder when it's thrown back in your face.

PS. You claimed that Spider-sense always gives him enough warning in any situation, even compensating for variables so that he can react to something across town (for example). However, in this incident, it clearly did not compensate. A point which seems to sail over your head. And if you think the Force isn't as good as voodoo, you're nuts.

[KK]

It is an accurate statement. You did precisely as I expected. You posted arguments based on AOTC while ignoring the fact that the Jedi were weak, and then screamed bloody murder when I did the EXACT SAME THING with Kraven's Last Hunt. What's the matter, bitch? You can dish it out but you can't take it?

The actual quotes from the movie don't support that the Jedi were wearer all-around.

The "shroud" of the dark side had fallen, and the only thing they ever mention being weaker is their ability to sense things.

Do you know what a fucking "shroud" is?

Guess not.

[Darth Wong]

The actual quotes from the movie don't support that the Jedi were wearer all-around.

The "shroud" of the dark side had fallen, and the only thing they ever mention being weaker is their ability to sense things.

Do you know what a fucking "shroud" is?

Guess not.

They said their "ability to use the Force" is weakened, asshole. Nothing was said about it only applying to one particular type of use. By the way, I could just as easily argue that Spidey's headache and disorientation should not have any effect on his Spider-sense.

PS. Yoda wanted to keep it a secret because he didn't want anyone to "know of our weakness". Pretty strange if their combat ability was completely untouched, isn't it, bitch?

[SAMAS]

Re: Luke a Jedi?

Depending on when an how you look at it, both sides can be right.

First, and importantly, Luke Skywalker is not a true Jedi going by the standards of the Jedi Order. However, he is techically a Jedi, but definitely not a good example of a typical one.

Classically, Luke's training was prettty much "Too Little, Too Late." While typical Jedi were trained around the age of three to five, Luke was 16-17 when he started in A New Hope. He had less than a couple of days of tutelage under Kenobi, and had to go it alone until he met Yoda, which again was a very short time. In all, less than a month of anything resembling formal training.

In Practice, he was still unlike any Jedi. By the end of RotJ, he neither suppressed his emotions, nor let them control him. He was able to both harness his anger to defeat his father, then throw it away to spare his life afterwards. He also used abilities commonly not used by most Jedi, such as the disputed Force Grip/Choke

Circular logic; this long-winded blather only works if you already believe that refusal to use Force TK is indeed a requirement of all Jedi. If it isn't, then Luke may not be a typical case of a Jedi, but that doesn't mean his Force choke (which he could only have learned if Yoda taught to him) goes against Jedi rules.

Not TK in general(of course they can do that), but using it to choke someone is definitely something not used by typical Jedi.

(Wanna dispute this? Give me a canon example of a Jedi using it. I can give you a real good example of one not using it).

No less of a Jedi than Yoda himself collected Dooku's Force lightning and threw it right back at him in AOTC, even though we know he's capable of dispersing it harmlessly. Canon proof that Jedi are willing to use the Force offensively against an organic target.

Off Topic. I didn't say anything about any force ability other than the aforementioned Choke attack. But if you insist...

I don't think that's the definition of "Offensive" Yoda was referring to. When he said "Never for Attack," I think he means to never initiate combat if at all possible. Once battle begins, survival and sucess take precedence(or is it the other way around). Turning an opponent's attack back at them is a perfectly fine defensive move.

And you have still failed to show that a droid does not count as an example of a sentient being (not to mention failing to address Anakin's Force wall in AOTC).

Of course I haven't. That wasn't a claim I made, so why should I?

If you're saying that you've found a situation where a Jedi could have used the Force but didn't, then I could just as easily find a hundred situations in war where something could have been done but wasn't. It doesn't mean it isn't possible.

So you're trying to say that Obi-Wan's failure to use it to subdue Jango Fett was just stupidity?

Or his and Anakin's failure to use it on the animals in the arena?

In fact, I don't think any Force User, Sith or otherwise, has been shown using anything more than the simpler or self-effecting Force powers in any kind of heated combat. Pushes, Pulls, and Leaps, yes. But Chokes, Lighting, and crushing one's windpipe, no.

[D.Turtle]

For the debate: In a debate where you have a huge spread of the strength and abilities of actors or machines or whatever, you would usually try to find a good middle ground.
As KK mentioned before: This would mean that a 10-10-10-10-10-1 is better than 1-1-1-1-1-10 (or even 1-1-1-1-1-30). So if one side consistently or very often shows very difficult feats and sometimes weaker ones, it would still be better than another side that has a couple of examples a lot higher that the best that the other side has, but otherwise is usually way below that.

KK has provided many many scans of comics where he showed the humongous speed and strength (among others) of Spiderman.

Countering this, Darth Wong has provided a few examples: The main one : a group of Jedi combining their powers, and through sacrificing one of their own, tossing around several Star Destroyers.
So lets look for other examples to support the direction that this example would lead us to believe a JEdi can do - if this is not that unusual for a Jedi to do.

Any and all examples coming from AOTC can be (and are) rejected by pointing out that the Jedi were weakened. How much is not known and therefore not relevant.

So lets look at a period of time where the Jedi were not weakened substanitally (if at all): Episode 1.
We see 2 Jedi destroy quite a few droids. However, they fled from 2 destroyers, eventhough they could have easily destroyed them (if we are going by the strength of Jedi that Darth Wong is ascribing to Jedi) - after all, they can toss Star Destroyers around, so they won't have any problems tossing 2 Destroyer Droids around - right?
However they fled.
Now, one can argue that blocking all the shots took all their concentration. However, they have their ultra speed - they could have simply run around the droid, be behind it, have a short pause while the droids are turning, and TK them to bits.
Thats what they did, right?
Actually, you know, they fled.
Now one can argue that they fled because they wanted to find out what the hell the TF was trying to do. However, 2 seconds before the Destroyer Droids appeared they were trying to get into the bridge for exactly that reason. Why should they change their mind only because they are facing 2 droids that they could easily defeat, right?

Another point that KK (I think it was) pointed out, was the fact that it is a lot easier to move very quickly in a certain direction, however it is quite a lot harder to constantly change directions.
KK showed several examples of Spiderman moving so quickly that to others he was merely a blur. And this was while jumping and leaping and changing directions all the time around them.
We have however never seen a Jedi move this fast (while changing directions).(more to this point below)


Another point that KK constantly pointed out, was the fact that Spiderman has precog. Jedi also have precog, so this kind of nullifies each other - the only thing now mattering is who can react quicker to the warnings sent from the precog.
So Precog won't decide the battle, as both sides have it.

The fastest fight we have ever seen from non-weakened Jedi was the fight between Obi-was & Qui Gong vs Darth Maul.
During this fight, the Jedi were quite visible. This can be explained up to a certain point by he force battles (non-visible) between the combatants.
So lets look for an example where the Jedi shouldnt hold back and shouldnt be weakened by an enemy force user.
One such example would be the Hangar scene in TPM where they try to free the pilots and free the spacecraft so that the droid control ship can be destroyed. As every single pilot was important, they shouldnt hold back, as holding back would mean that pilots could be killed and their plan weakened. However, we see several pilots shot down. So much, that they don't even have enough pilots for all spacecraft. If they were so super-fast (or maybe as fast as Spiderman has been shown to be aka a blur) they should have been able to destroy all the droids without any or with only very few losses to the pilots. However, we can see that they aren't that fast.
So Jedi aren't as fast as Spiderman.

Now the question if Jedi are as strong as Jedi:
Spiderman has been shown to carry a trainwagon, toss over a train wagon with a slight shove (for him) with one finger throw tanks around to name a few examples shown by KK. Now one can nipick these examples by saying that the physics shown make those feats impossible(no bending of material). However this can be easily ignored, as it is a well-known fact that comic book physics aren't that realistic. As a case in point: In the new Hulk movie, the Hulk tosses a tank away by grabbing its turret and swinging it around. As has been pointed out by several people, this is impossible, as the turret would simply seperate from the main chassis. However, comic book physics aren't that realistic all the time.
What is the strongest we have seen a Jedi PHYSICALLY do?
The strongest that comes to my mind is Obi-wan jumping up again from where he was shoved down by Darth Maul during the fight in TPM.

There are several more points to be argued (for example damage absorbtion capabilities) but it is late at night here and I don't have the time right now to do all that.
KK has (in my eyes) pointed out sufficient evidence about Spiderman's capabilities to convinve me that he is strengthwise, speedwise, and so on better than a Jedi.

There is only really one thing where the Jedi could get a real advantage: Telekinesis.
The question is - would (and could) a Jedi use TK to INSTANTLY knock out or hold up into the air Spiderman?
The limit of this would be to find out what the shortest time it was that a Jedi ever took to react to something and TK it.
I can't think of very good (aka very fast )examples of this from the movies.
One would be the battles against droids in TPM. During these TK is used several times against droids. Each time however, the Force User (typically Obi-wan) threw out his hand against the froids and they were thrown back and were destroyed.
Another example would be the fight between Yoda and Count Dooku. When Dooku wrecks the huge tube thing in order to distract Yoda, Yoda drops his staff, thows out his hand in the direction of the tubular thing, and you can see him struggling to hold it. (Interesting fact: It doesn't stop immediately, but slows down, so a sufficiently strong being could theoretically move despite being TKed). One could throw this one away by arguing that the Jedi were weakened, however Yoda was quite a lot more than just a normal Jedi, so I think that even in his weakened state he would be stronger than a Jedi in his prime (After all, the Force is not about physical strength but about the strength of the mind.).
So Spiderman could theoretically avoid being TKed - after all he dodges LIGHTSPEED things (even without pre-cog as shown in several panels that KK showed) - so he should be able to avoid being targeted by a Jedi's TK.

Anyway: I went into this debate pretty neutral (actually biased a bit towards the Jedi), but KK's evidence has thoroughly convinced me that Spiderman would easily defeat a Jedi.

So: Good job KK: You are doing fine. Keep up the good work.

[Typhonis 1]

Fine KK what is to keep a jedi from using TK which Ben CANNOT gefend against to pick him up and slam him into things?

[KK]

They said their "ability to use the Force" is weakened, asshole. Nothing was said about it only applying to one particular type of use.

Yes, I am well aware of the power of selective quoting.

However, you fail to mention that Mace Windu's quote directly followed...

YODA: "Blind we are, if the creation of this clone army we could not see."

Mace directly responds to this by saying that their ability to use the ofrce has diminished.

Now, if you have several abilities, and you lose one of them, then your abilities are diminished.

If Spider-Man were to lose his spider-sense, he could say his power has diminished, but it doesn't mean his strength, speed, and agility are all less.

There is no indication whatsoever in the movie of their powers being any lesser, except for the fact that the "shroud of the dark side" blinded them.

Then Yoda makes a comment about their weakness. That can be interpreted two ways. I'll use a simple analogy.

SUPERMAN: "I hope they don't find out about my weakness."

That means...

A) "I hope they don't find out about Kryptonite."
B) "I hope they don't find out that I can only life 30 lbs and falling off my bed could kill me, since I have such great weakness."

In this case, it is clear A is the ocrrect choice.

In Yoda's quote, it is not *as* clear, but given that they never mention any weakness aside from being blind, it is fairly clear that "our weakness" referred to a specific weakness rather than an overall weakened state.

To further drive this home, you even pointed out this quote yourself. "The shroud of the dark side has fallen."

Interesting choice of words. "Shroud." Let's examine, shall we? I'll defer to my good buddy Webster. He's never let me down in the past.

Main Entry: 2shroud
Date: 14th century
transitive senses
1 a archaic : to cover for protection b obsolete : CONCEAL
2 a : to cut off from view : OBSCURE <trees shrouded by a heavy fog> b : to veil under another appearance (as by obscuring or disguising) <shrouded the decision in a series of formalities>

Well, what do you know? To shroud is to obscure, conceal, cut off from view, or veil. How ironic that the cause of their "weakness" is a word that directly means something that clouds view, rather than something that sucks up power or whatever you want to believe the dark side did.

Based on an objective look at the quotes about their weakness and how that weakness played a part in the movie, I'd say the ony reasonable interpretation is that the term "our weakness" referred to the specific weakness of them being blinded, and was not used as a statement of an overall weakened state.

By the way, I could just as easily argue that Spidey's headache and disorientation should not have any effect on his Spider-sense.

No, I don't believe you could.

PS. Yoda wanted to keep it a secret because he didn't want anyone to "know of our weakness". Pretty strange if their combat ability was completely untouched, isn't it, bitch?

Not strange at all, when you consider the dark side was specifically referred to as a shroud, which has less than nothing to do with taking away combat power, and everything to do with obscuring vision.

[keflex]

Fine KK what is to keep a jedi from using TK which Ben CANNOT gefend against to pick him up and slam him into things?

This once again comes down to who can react faster when confronted. If we assume that confrontation is instantaneous (w/ bloodlust mode in full force) then we would also have to assume that precog would help neither side greatly until after the 1st move has been made.

And we all have to agree whoever is reacting and not acting is at the noticeable disadvantage.

[Darth Wong]

They said their "ability to use the Force" is weakened, asshole. Nothing was said about it only applying to one particular type of use.

Yes, I am well aware of the power of selective quoting.

However, you fail to mention that Mace Windu's quote directly followed...

YODA: "Blind we are, if the creation of this clone army we could not see."

Mace directly responds to this by saying that their ability to use the ofrce has diminished.

Now, if you have several abilities, and you lose one of them, then your abilities are diminished.

Yet another logical fallacy from Kaptain Krackhead. If A is a subset of B, and B diminishes, then you assume that A is the only part of B which could have diminished

If Spider-Man were to lose his spider-sense, he could say his power has diminished, but it doesn't mean his strength, speed, and agility are all less.

There is no indication whatsoever in the movie of their powers being any lesser, except for the fact that the "shroud of the dark side" blinded them.

Then Yoda makes a comment about their weakness. That can be interpreted two ways. I'll use a simple analogy.

SUPERMAN: "I hope they don't find out about my weakness."

That means...

A) "I hope they don't find out about Kryptonite."
B) "I hope they don't find out that I can only life 30 lbs and falling off my bed could kill me, since I have such great weakness."

In this case, it is clear A is the ocrrect choice.

Wow, you don't even realize it when you're committing huge fallacies of hasty generalization and red herrings, do you? Provide a shred of evidence that Jedi prescience is somehow separate from their other powers.

In Yoda's quote, it is not *as* clear, but given that they never mention any weakness aside from being blind, it is fairly clear that "our weakness" referred to a specific weakness rather than an overall weakened state.

In other words, if B is diminished, and A is a subset of B, then nothing but A could have possibly diminished. You're a moron.

To further drive this home, you even pointed out this quote yourself. "The shroud of the dark side has fallen."

Interesting choice of words. "Shroud." Let's examine, shall we? I'll defer to my good buddy Webster. He's never let me down in the past.

Main Entry: 2shroud
Date: 14th century
transitive senses
1 a archaic : to cover for protection b obsolete : CONCEAL
2 a : to cut off from view : OBSCURE <trees shrouded by a heavy fog> b : to veil under another appearance (as by obscuring or disguising) <shrouded the decision in a series of formalities>

Well, what do you know? To shroud is to obscure, conceal, cut off from view, or veil. How ironic that the cause of their "weakness" is a word that directly means something that clouds view, rather than something that sucks up power or whatever you want to believe the dark side did.

Yet another repetition of your pathetic logical fallacy: you think that if B diminishes and A is a subset of B, then A is the only part of B which could have diminished. Where the fuck did you learn critical thinking? The Jehovah's Witnesses?

Based on an objective look at the quotes about their weakness and how that weakness played a part in the movie, I'd say the ony reasonable interpretation is that the term "our weakness" referred to the specific weakness of them being blinded, and was not used as a statement of an overall weakened state.

Obviously, you don't know what "objective" means. The fact is that you have presented a theory which is one possible explanation of the quote. However, the rest of the body of evidence does not support your explanation. Jedi were much less fearsome in AOTC than in TPM, where an entire commando squad fled from a single Sith lord.

By the way, I could just as easily argue that Spidey's headache and disorientation should not have any effect on his Spider-sense.

No, I don't believe you could.

Why not? It's no less logical than your ridiculous claim that if B diminishes and A is a subset of B, then the only possible explanation is that A constituted 100% of the loss.

Not strange at all, when you consider the dark side was specifically referred to as a shroud, which has less than nothing to do with taking away combat power, and everything to do with obscuring vision.

Funny how you take "the shroud of the Dark Side has fallen" and interpret it to mean "the shroud of the Dark Side has fallen but that is the only aspect in which our ability to use the Force has diminished, even though I never really said that and it's just groundless speculation on the part of Kaptain Krackhead".

[KK]

Fine KK what is to keep a jedi from using TK which Ben CANNOT gefend against to pick him up and slam him into things?

Being being faster and taking the fight into his own terms before the Jedi has a chance to act.

And if the Jedi does manage to start hurling him around, this is a guy who can take punches from the likes of the Hulk and Namor, and who can have a head on collision with a deisel truck and damage the truck more than himself. It'll take more than getting tossed into a wall a few times to put him down

[Ghost Rider]

Fine KK what is to keep a jedi from using TK which Ben CANNOT gefend against to pick him up and slam him into things?

Being being faster and taking the fight into his own terms before the Jedi has a chance to act.

And if the Jedi does manage to start hurling him around, this is a guy who can take punches from the likes of the Hulk and Namor, and who can have a head on collision with a deisel truck and damage the truck more than himself. It'll take more than getting tossed into a wall a few times to put him down

And that was when he's rolling with punches and bracing himself...not when he's being thrown around like a ragdoll..or are your seeing the pretty pictures in a different light again.

[neoolong]

In case anybody cares, starwars.com says that:

"At first, the signs were few. The sudden appearance of a Sith attacker during the Battle of Naboo was startling to the Council, but that threat was dispatched. Still, according to Sith lore, the dark villains always traveled in pairs -- a master, and apprentice. For a decade, there was no physical signs of the remaining Dark Lord, but evidence of his power began to appear.

The Jedi ability to use the Force inexplicably began to diminish. This, coupled with increasing violence in the galaxy sparked by a Separatist movement overburdened the valiant protectors. Their ranks were spread thin trying to maintain the peace, and many Jedi fell during the crisis. When it came to war, and the first shots of the Clone Wars were fired on Geonosis, only a scant 200 Jedi were readily available for the conflict. Most of this taskforce was killed in the battle, but reinforcements, in the form of the Republic's new military, secured a victory against the Separatists."

Nothing about it only being their ability to see the future.

[Darth Wong]

Turtle, do you have some problem with putting a blank line between paragraphs?

For the debate: In a debate where you have a huge spread of the strength and abilities of actors or machines or whatever, you would usually try to find a good middle ground.
As KK mentioned before: This would mean that a 10-10-10-10-10-1 is better than 1-1-1-1-1-10 (or even 1-1-1-1-1-30). So if one side consistently or very often shows very difficult feats and sometimes weaker ones, it would still be better than another side that has a couple of examples a lot higher that the best that the other side has, but otherwise is usually way below that.

KK has provided many many scans of comics where he showed the humongous speed and strength (among others) of Spiderman.

None of which indicate that he would survive a TK force-choke.

Countering this, Darth Wong has provided a few examples: The main one : a group of Jedi combining their powers, and through sacrificing one of their own, tossing around several Star Destroyers.

I like the way you act as if this is the only example, ignoring other feats such as partially levitating the X-Wing despite his marginal training, bringing down an AT-AT in Dark Empire, etc.

So lets look at a period of time where the Jedi were not weakened substanitally (if at all): Episode 1.
We see 2 Jedi destroy quite a few droids. However, they fled from 2 destroyers, eventhough they could have easily destroyed them (if we are going by the strength of Jedi that Darth Wong is ascribing to Jedi) - after all, they can toss Star Destroyers around, so they won't have any problems tossing 2 Destroyer Droids around - right?

Logical fallacy: if they did not use their TK in a particular manner, then they must not have it. That is a stupid interpretation since we saw a half-assed Jedi trainee lift a multi-ton X-wing partially out of a swamp (much more difficult than levitating it in air, I might add) in TESB, so any interpretation calling for them to LACK multi-ton TK is instantly denied in canon.

Instead of leaping to the stupid conclusion that they must lack multi-ton TK, you should instead look for an explanation which explains all of the evidence at once.

However they fled.
Now, one can argue that blocking all the shots took all their concentration. However, they have their ultra speed - they could have simply run around the droid, be behind it, have a short pause while the droids are turning, and TK them to bits.
Thats what they did, right?
Actually, you know, they fled.

So what do you think is the case? It's clear that they DO have multi-ton TK; throwing heavy metallic battle droids around like rag dolls is child's play for them. It's also clear that they have the super-speed, since we saw it. You're simply arguing that they should have used their abilities differently, and then leaping to the asinine conclusion that they must not have those abilities even though they were demonstrated onscreen.

Now one can argue that they fled because they wanted to find out what the hell the TF was trying to do. However, 2 seconds before the Destroyer Droids appeared they were trying to get into the bridge for exactly that reason. Why should they change their mind only because they are facing 2 droids that they could easily defeat, right?

Perhaps because letting up for even a half-second to apply a TK shove would have meant death? What's your explanation? Do you agree with TK that they must lack abilities that they have demonstrated onscreen?

Another point that KK (I think it was) pointed out, was the fact that it is a lot easier to move very quickly in a certain direction, however it is quite a lot harder to constantly change directions.

So? Droidekas can't turn around too quickly, so that wouldn't matter. But a more powerful application of the Force (such as super-speed, partial intangibility, or heavy TK) requires a fraction of a second to initiate, and they were a little busy. What is this supposed to prove?

KK showed several examples of Spiderman moving so quickly that to others he was merely a blur. And this was while jumping and leaping and changing directions all the time around them.

We have however never seen a Jedi move this fast (while changing directions).(more to this point below)

Accelerating from a standing start is a change of velocity, dumb-ass. Maneuverability is simply a matter of the ability to accelerate in arbitrary directions.

Another point that KK constantly pointed out, was the fact that Spiderman has precog. Jedi also have precog, so this kind of nullifies each other - the only thing now mattering is who can react quicker to the warnings sent from the precog.
So Precog won't decide the battle, as both sides have it.

True, both sides have it. Jedi precog, however, has greater range in the sense that they can sense things which are going to happen well into the future, and from light-years away.

The fastest fight we have ever seen from non-weakened Jedi was the fight between Obi-was & Qui Gong vs Darth Maul.

During this fight, the Jedi were quite visible. This can be explained up to a certain point by he force battles (non-visible) between the combatants.
So lets look for an example where the Jedi shouldnt hold back and shouldnt be weakened by an enemy force user.

One such example would be the Hangar scene in TPM where they try to free the pilots and free the spacecraft so that the droid control ship can be destroyed. As every single pilot was important, they shouldnt hold back, as holding back would mean that pilots could be killed and their plan weakened. However, we see several pilots shot down. So much, that they don't even have enough pilots for all spacecraft. If they were so super-fast (or maybe as fast as Spiderman has been shown to be aka a blur) they should have been able to destroy all the droids without any or with only very few losses to the pilots. However, we can see that they aren't that fast.

A cartoon panel does not indicate that he is actually a blur. In case you didn't notice, when they show that, they often show the other person's head "blurring" the same way, shown in multiple positions. The cartoon format is freeze-frames to depict a story, and you don't know how much time is elapsed during each frame. Since a frame often encompasses dialogue that would take a considerable amount of time to say, it is ridiculous to argue that a "bouncing around the panel" frame must mean that Spiderman moves like a blur.

So Jedi aren't as fast as Spiderman.

You have acceleration figures to prove this? If so, present them.

Now the question if Jedi are as strong as Jedi:

Spiderman has been shown to carry a trainwagon, toss over a train wagon with a slight shove (for him) with one finger throw tanks around to name a few examples shown by KK. Now one can nipick these examples by saying that the physics shown make those feats impossible(no bending of material). However this can be easily ignored, as it is a well-known fact that comic book physics aren't that realistic.

Funny how they must be realistic in the sense that a certain amount of force is required, yet you get to throw realism out the window when it is pointed out that the amount of force required would produce side effects. Typical selective application of logic which I see from idiots. Tell me, how do you know what a train weighs, or how much force it takes to lift one? FROM REAL-LIFE PHYSICS? Yet what do you throw out the window as soon as it becomes inconvenient? Yup- real life physics. Hypocrite.

As a case in point: In the new Hulk movie, the Hulk tosses a tank away by grabbing its turret and swinging it around. As has been pointed out by several people, this is impossible, as the turret would simply seperate from the main chassis. However, comic book physics aren't that realistic all the time.

Correct, but we only have two choices:

1. Interpret them according to the laws of physics
2. Apply the laws of physics only when it's convenient, and throw them out the window when they get in the way of a good pre-ordained conclusion

Kaptain Krackhead has been using the latter method, and so have you.

What is the strongest we have seen a Jedi PHYSICALLY do?

The strongest that comes to my mind is Obi-wan jumping up again from where he was shoved down by Darth Maul during the fight in TPM.

Lifting an X-wing fighter out of a swamp comes to mind, since you have not presented a case to eliminate TK. The force required to lift a tank out of a swamp is around twice the force required to lift it off solid ground, so the force requirement for what Luke did is considerable, even if it only moved a few feet.

There are several more points to be argued (for example damage absorbtion capabilities) but it is late at night here and I don't have the time right now to do all that.

KK has (in my eyes) pointed out sufficient evidence about Spiderman's capabilities to convinve me that he is strengthwise, speedwise, and so on better than a Jedi.

Spiderman is physically stronger than a Jedi. However, the speed arguments fall flat; the use of a comic panel (and implicit assumption that the whole panel must take a second or so) is a rather weak argument. I suppose I could point out the damage that he should leave on walls if he bounces off them at the velocities you claim, but of course, that would be physics, and I must remember that you only apply physics when convenient (eg- to calculate the force required to do something while ignoring all of the other physical parameters of that act as you describe)

There is only really one thing where the Jedi could get a real advantage: Telekinesis.

The question is - would (and could) a Jedi use TK to INSTANTLY knock out or hold up into the air Spiderman?

He doesn't have to. Unless Spiderman has some incredibly destructive ranged attack that we don't know about, he can take a half-second to apply his TK punch. Don't bullshit me and tell me that Spiderman can take out anybody at any range in less than a half-second.

One would be the battles against droids in TPM. During these TK is used several times against droids. Each time however, the Force User (typically Obi-wan) threw out his hand against the froids and they were thrown back and were destroyed.

Are you seriously arguing that Spiderman can locate and attack someone who has Force prescience and supernatural awareness without giving him enough reaction time to even put out his hand?

Spiderman's precog only applies to imminent personal danger. Jedi precog applies to arbitrary events. Yoda could even monitor Luke's upbringing on Tatooine from Dagobah!

Another example would be the fight between Yoda and Count Dooku. When Dooku wrecks the huge tube thing in order to distract Yoda, Yoda drops his staff, thows out his hand in the direction of the tubular thing, and you can see him struggling to hold it. (Interesting fact: It doesn't stop immediately, but slows down, so a sufficiently strong being could theoretically move despite being TKed).

Do you have ANY idea how much a column of that size could weigh? How much experience do you have working with metal?

One could throw this one away by arguing that the Jedi were weakened, however Yoda was quite a lot more than just a normal Jedi, so I think that even in his weakened state he would be stronger than a Jedi in his prime (After all, the Force is not about physical strength but about the strength of the mind.).

Sure, but not ten times stronger. Even Luke was able to lift the X-wing out of the swamp by a little bit, after all.

So Spiderman could theoretically avoid being TKed - after all he dodges LIGHTSPEED things (even without pre-cog as shown in several panels that KK showed) - so he should be able to avoid being targeted by a Jedi's TK.

Spider-sense enables him to move out of the path where the laser will go; it doesn't make him fast enough to actually move out of the way of the laser in flight.

Anyway: I went into this debate pretty neutral (actually biased a bit towards the Jedi), but KK's evidence has thoroughly convinced me that Spiderman would easily defeat a Jedi.

So: Good job KK: You are doing fine. Keep up the good work.

Is this circle-jerk satisfying for you? Of course, I should keep in mind that you are also convinced that the Matrix has no serious plot holes. You appear to convince easily, if you are inclined to do so.