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Thanas wrote: Unless you like large grey stones shot from every angle...

Kinky...

CA has posted a reply in one of their forums concerning all the bugs and gameplay issues.

http://shoguntotalwar.yuku.com/sreply/7 ... oever.html

We thoroughly tested Empire on a huge range of computer specifications and software setups. Empire was tested in house right up until the minute of release, and was passed by both SEGA and CA QA authorities.

Except for any computer with a FAT32 hard drive apparently. Although I blame steam for that in forcing individual files of over 4GB.

Therefore for those of you who are still concerned, please treat this as stage 1 of the launch, the booster rockets fall away and we now drive stage 2 with the fuel of patching and support.

I love how PC software is practically the only industry in the world that you can openly say releases unfinished products intentionally and doesn't even feel shame over it.

Basically its just a marketing rant to try to convince all the people they pissed off to buy the expansion pack when it comes out.

ray245 wrote:CA has posted a reply in one of their forums concerning all the bugs and gameplay issues.

http://shoguntotalwar.yuku.com/sreply/7 ... oever.html

This section made me giggle

When we design a TW game, each faction must be unique enough that it feels different, that it plays its own story (According to your hands). We don't want any faction to feel like a carbon copy of the other,

So apparently all the european nations aren't carbon copies of each other, who knew.

So apparently all the european nations aren't carbon copies of each other, who knew.

Hey that's hardly fair, Englands line infantry are a completely different colour to Frances line infantry.

For all the things to rant about against CA and Empire, the 'carbon copy' thing is pretty flimsy. What, did you glance at the unit lists, see a handful of shared units and declare all European powers are identical to each other?

For one thing, all line infantry has different stats. The only thing carbon copied about them is the name and unit model. Each nation's line infantry has different accuracy, morale, melee, and other stats. In a similar vein, colonial line infantry has different stats than regular European infantry. Beyond that, only generic unit types are shared between factions - Dragoons, Grenadiers, the artillery types, etc., and all nations have their own variants upon them and special units. Given the time period, this unit commonality makes sense, because this isn't a time when grand Roman legions went up against Gallic barbarians; there is technological and doctrinal parity so of course basic units are similar.

It's not as if Medieval 2 was any better. All European factions had the same basic troops with a few unique things mixed in. Why not bitch about that? Oh no, my English sergeants are identical to French sergeants! Feudal Knights being identical to... other Feudal Knights? Un-possible!!

The differences between line infantry don't bother me in the slightest. Other than egoistic national pride boasting, most nation's line infantry honestly never were *that* tactically different from one another. It's just that idiots really like to exaggerate the differences between military factions so things seem way more dramatic. It's particularly apparent in historical. Take the Panzers as an example.

I think you're missing the point.

CA: Every faction has to be a unique special snowflake or it isn't playable!

*Doesn't include a faction that's so unique it could have rocket swords* (Mughals)
*Includes factions which are roughly identical unless you're just really nitpicky about unit numbers, names, and colors*

And then there's features...apparently a monarchy being able to select heirs and see where some of these mysterious ministers are is redundant.

This is as above. There are features that were removed for gameplay and design reasons. Where we felt something had been implemented but perhaps didn't properly 'fit' the experience or did not add anything to it, whilst adding another layer of difficulty it was made redundant. There are some examples of features that went in very early into Empire's creation that were later dropped for gameplay or time reasons, but these are deliberately ommitted. Nothing here is 'half finished' or 'incomplete' these features or factions are deliberately not in place. This is because of decisions made at a project level.

I am particularly enjoying my Italian carbine cavalry who can shoot from horseback but do not have skirmish mode.

Ok, after some testing it turns out pajama equipped native melee infantry are better than line infantry period. Yeah you heard me. Line infantry can't beat natives not even with artillery support.

I'm even willing to deal with the fact that Native Americans are exceptionally good melee fighters because they literally spend their whole lives at war, hunting, or just training for a brawl.

What I can't understand is how musket volleys only succeed in killing 2-4 enemies at a time. What I can't understand is how bayonet equipped soldiers with a 5 foot long musket can still lose to guys armed with daggers and tomahawks even when they charge each other head on.

This. Is. Bullshit. I'm using one of the mods that allows you to use the Cherokee nations in custom battle right? So my test always consists of 1 group of Prussian Line Infantry vs Native Warriors. (Not native mobs, i'm testing them soldier vs soldier here.) EVERY TIME, the line infantry lose. Late or early period doesn't matter. Holding fire until they're really close or opening up as soon as they come into range doesn't matter. Native Americans suffer a whopping grand total of 2-4 casualties per volley. Since they charge every time, you only have time for one volley before they're already on top of your dudes. If they get into a melee they'll win every time. No matter what.

The only way I was able to beat the Native Americans was when I had the warriors face a rank-maxed unit of line infantry. At the highest rank, the line infantry STILL only killed 2-4 Natives before it turned into a melee. The line infantry won this time, but suffered greater than 50% casualties.

Am I missing something here? Are professional European Armies made up of pussies? According to CA here, the musket is the most useless invention of the century, and European soldiers would be better off donning their old plate armor and pikes again.

Oh, and it's also fucking stupid to see the Cherokee natives turn out one full stack army after another and maintain one at every city. I'm not even counting how ridiculous it is to see the Native Americans running around with organized professional armies.

CaptHawkeye wrote:Ok, after some testing it turns out pajama equipped native melee infantry are better than line infantry period. Yeah you heard me. Line infantry can't beat natives not even with artillery support.

That seems rather contrary to my experience playing the game. I generally had little trouble defeating native forces, and was only defeated when the enemy had a substantial numerical advantage (like three full armies against one). I defeated two full-stack armies with one.

I'm even willing to deal with the fact that Native Americans are exceptionally good melee fighters because they literally spend their whole lives at war, hunting, or just training for a brawl.

What I can't understand is how musket volleys only succeed in killing 2-4 enemies at a time. What I can't understand is how bayonet equipped soldiers with a 5 foot long musket can still lose to guys armed with daggers and tomahawks even when they charge each other head on.

This. Is. Bullshit. I'm using one of the mods that allows you to use the Cherokee nations in custom battle right? So my test always consists of 1 group of Prussian Line Infantry vs Native Warriors. (Not native mobs, i'm testing them soldier vs soldier here.) EVERY TIME, the line infantry lose. Late or early period doesn't matter. Holding fire until they're really close or opening up as soon as they come into range doesn't matter. Native Americans suffer a whopping grand total of 2-4 casualties per volley. Since they charge every time, you only have time for one volley before they're already on top of your dudes. If they get into a melee they'll win every time. No matter what.

Are you researching your tech tree in some strange way? The effectiveness of line infantry is strongly affected by the tech tree, even if they don't look any different. I don't know what tech tree assumptions are made when you do a custom battle, but I found line infantry volleys to be more destructive than that.

Mind you, part of the weakness of natives in a real game situation is that they are poorly organized. Instead of moving in a well-organized battle line, they often arrive in smaller groups, thus allowing concentration of fire from multiple units. I've seen native units stupidly come into range one at a time and get cut to ribbons. It's not like a custom battle.

I'm not sure if their is some kind of substantial difference between the Cherokee in custom battle and the campaign. It's understandable for the Cherokee to beat early line infantry not equipped with muskets and poorly organized to me, it just doesn't make sense they can so easily do that to the late period infantry too.

I'm even willing to accept the Natives Americans tossing a full stack at me every now and then. After all, Custard found out the hard way that sometimes the Native Americans can get really serious about fighting. What annoys me is that they keep tossing them at you.

Maybe i'm just missing something here, some people say they don't have any problems with melee infantry too. Is their something I should be doing?

If your having difficulty fighting them off when they come at you in large groups of full stacks simply fight defencivelly from behind trench fortifications or walls if available. Spread your line out and make sure you have overlapping fields of fire with mortars and reserve infantry behind you to resist the axe rush and you can annihilate the enemy to your hearts content even when massively outnumbered.

In custom battle mode are you fighting in the early setting as you wont have firing by line invented for you, therefore your literally cutting your firepower in three before you even start fighting. Also what level of bayonet do you have? Without at least second generation bayonets a unit of line infantry will lose to axe men, but after that it becomes a massacre.

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:

For all the things to rant about against CA and Empire, the 'carbon copy' thing is pretty flimsy. What, did you glance at the unit lists, see a handful of shared units and declare all European powers are identical to each other?

No, it is just that they are using the same model, for example.

Thanas wrote:

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:

For all the things to rant about against CA and Empire, the 'carbon copy' thing is pretty flimsy. What, did you glance at the unit lists, see a handful of shared units and declare all European powers are identical to each other?

No, it is just that they are using the same model, for example.

You mean like in every other Total War game?

Slightly off-topic, but are there any games set during this period that have an operational level of combat?

The closest thing I can think of are the old Sid Meier ACW games. But I'm sure there are probably a fair few relatively obscure grognard games that may be what you're looking for, I just don't know what those might be.

Artemas wrote:

Thanas wrote:

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:

For all the things to rant about against CA and Empire, the 'carbon copy' thing is pretty flimsy. What, did you glance at the unit lists, see a handful of shared units and declare all European powers are identical to each other?

No, it is just that they are using the same model, for example.

You mean like in every other Total War game?

Show me one other game in which they used the same 3d model for every faction and then show me the game in which they used the same unit model for two different units of the same faction.

Show me one other game in which they used the same 3d model for every faction and then show me the game in which they used the same unit model for two different units of the same faction.

Every Total War game made. Why are you shocked that the fifth game in a series has continued a practice that has made an appearance in every previous title?

It's not as if Medieval 2 was any better. All European factions had the same basic troops with a few unique things mixed in. Why not bitch about that? Oh no, my English sergeants are identical to French sergeants! Feudal Knights being identical to... other Feudal Knights? Un-possible!!

Or every warband in RTW appearing like every other warband. Or archers that look like other archers. Often the only difference between some units in the Total War games has been skins or weapons. The same model is often re-used.
Surprise?

Using the same skin for two different units within the same faction? Nope, that got to be a new one.

Like Sergeant Spearmen and Spear Militia?

Though what faction in ETW has similar skins? Is it Spain with Guerillas?

Artemas wrote:Like Sergeant Spearmen and Spear Militia?

Do those look exactly the same?

Though what faction in ETW has similar skins? Is it Spain with Guerillas?

All Spanish skirmisher units have the same skin, both the Guerillas and the Cazadores.

Do those look exactly the same?

I'm pretty sure they do. Just a typical peasant with a spear and kite shield.

What is the point in having so many skirmishers for Spain? Are some of them AOR or what? It's almost as bad as the English Billmen thing as far as redundancy.

Artemas wrote:

Do those look exactly the same?

I'm pretty sure they do. Just a typical peasant with a spear and kite shield.

Yeah, but they look differently with all the upgrades iirc. One gets better armor than the other.

What is the point in having so many skirmishers for Spain? Are some of them AOR or what? It's almost as bad as the English Billmen thing as far as redundancy.

Spain in total has light infantry, guerillas and the Cazadores. They also get frontiermen in the AOR of America. Guerillas are only recruitable in Spain iirc, so that is AOR as well, and light infantry just exists in one regiment since the start - Spain cannot build them but has one light infantry regiment anyway.

The stats are the reasons for the various types - the Guerillas and frontiermen have a range of 80 and an accuracy of 45/50 respectively, while the Cazadores have a range of 125.

Man I suck at naval combat. Has anyone ever managed to demast an enemy ship? I tried it as a Sloop vs a Sixth Rate (I was the Sloop) - I don't think that fucker ever took any damage to his sails whatsoever, no matter how many close range broadsides I used.