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Enigma wrote: 2017-11-04 01:20pm Can't find the source but I thought it was stated that it took place in a separate continuity but ties up with the beginning of TOS?

So they want the benefits of people thinking they are canon without making the effort of actually fitting into canon ?

tezunegari wrote: 2017-11-04 04:45pm I'm not sure about the rumor, but that's how it was explained to me:

Essentially the rights to anything TOS lies with a new Viacom which holds Paramount Pictures licenses and is selling the old DVD/BluRays of TV shows and movies (TOS,TNG,DS9,VOY, Star Trek 1-10), while
the rights to the Kelvin-verse belong to CBS Television Studios (Star Trek 11-13) and Star Trek Discovery.

You have two problems with what you're saying:
- All you have is a rumor. No proof.
- Sarek and Mudd are TOS characters that made it into STD.

Until Season 1 is over I withhold my judgment but so far I consider DSC a third timeline with a yet unknown point of divergence (possibly Burnham surviving the klingon terror raid?).

A third continuity is the only thing that makes sense. The only reason I'm not doing that is all the advertising claiming that it is the prime timeline.

Not that separating STD into its own continuity does much to improve it.

bilateralrope wrote: 2017-11-04 11:09pm
So they want the benefits of people thinking they are canon without making the effort of actually fitting into canon ?

What are the benefits of people thinking they are canon?

The people who care about the concept of what is or isn't 'canon' will be able to spot when things don't fit.

The general viewer couldn't care less.

streetad wrote: 2017-11-07 01:39pm

bilateralrope wrote: 2017-11-04 11:09pm So they want the benefits of people thinking they are canon without making the effort of actually fitting into canon ?

What are the benefits of people thinking they are canon?

The people who care about the concept of what is or isn't 'canon' will be able to spot when things don't fit.

The general viewer couldn't care less.

The "benefits of people thinking they are canon" is the ability to exploit the established fanbase of 'Star Trek', an innate advantage for any sequel or prequel. This "established fanbase" can help promote works via word-of-mouth, propagating interest in the work, in ways advertisements cannot.

Of course, you have to be careful to appease the "established fanbase" if you try to exploit them. Politicians take similar risks and rewards when exploiting nationalism.

The established fanbase is only really helpful to get people watching in the first place. After the first few episodes, the show is what keeps people watching.

I suspect that the storyline of Discovery was originally written as something other than a Trek show. Then slapped into the Trek universe to boost profitability.

they really don't know what to do with Saru.

When Kirk was sent on a mission to help the Federation deal with cloaking devices, he and Spock infiltrated a Romulan ship and steal a cloaking device. Presumably to reverse engineer it.

When the crew of the Discovery are sent on a mission to help the Federation deal with cloaking devices, they head to some strange planet and plan to do something with a structure on the surface to make it emit a signal that disrupts cloaking devices. Hoping that the Klingons never work out where the signal is coming from, as that structure looks like something they could easily destroy.

Thanas wrote: 2017-11-08 06:05pm they really don't know what to do with Saru.

Agreed. They don't seem to have put much thought into him beyond having a gimmicky crewmember.

While Doug Jones has done an amazing job with what he's had to work with, Commander Saru seems to be all over the place. And now they did the "alien influence" episode, my least favorite one out of all the aired episodes up to this point. Tyler and Burnham should have started blasting Saru as soon as it was apparent that the XO was compromised.

Saru is annoying me in a way that's beginning to rival Neelix. Not quite on that level, but he has had some real shithead moments. My favorite one has got to be "Well...Rehydrate it and bring it back. Crack it open if you have to." But this week there was so much whine and emo to go with the tired cliche of the brainwashed crewman trying to convince his crewmates to join with the aliens. I loved it when Michael finally gave Saru his comeuppance.

The scene between Burnham and Tyler seemed forced, the dialogue clunky and shoehorned in just for reference. I wanted this moment to happen later than it actually did.

The Klingon B-Plot has taken a huge turn, I completely wasn't expecting things to unfold the way they did. I can't wait to see what happens with L'Rell and Admiral Cornwell.

Darth Lucifer wrote: 2017-11-11 07:19am Saru is annoying me in a way that's beginning to rival Neelix. Not quite on that level, but he has had some real shithead moments.

Some comparisons between them do spring to mind:

- I've heard that Nelix was described as a "breakout character" before Voyager aired. I've seen Saru described as the same.
- Both are the first of their species to serve on a Starfleet vessel.
- A few episodes into both series and it's easy to come to the conclusion that they are both the last member of their species to serve in Starfleet.

I am singularly impressed with the attention to detail with the Klingon language. The only variance I caught was the Klingon word for human.

In the original 1985 printing of the Klingon Dictionary (I need to dig this up if I still have a copy of this book), IIRC it was listed as tera'ngan (Terran), which refers to the Earther homeworld of Terra. However, in s01e02 Battle at the Binary Stars, T'Kuvma said the word Humanpu' during his speech to the representatives of the Great Houses:

T'Kuvma the Unforgettable wrote: qeQ yotlhDaq nuluH luneH. They wish to drag us into the muck,
pa' DuD Humanpu', vulqanganpu', tellarnganpu', where humans, Vulcans, Tellarites,
'anDorya'nganpu' lamqu' je. and filthy Andorians mix.

-pu' is a Type 2 plural suffix; it forms the plurals for words denoting beings that use language. So another way to say Humanpu' would be tera'nganpu'.

On a side note, I love that there's a lot more Klingon language. While some people don't like the subtitled parts, I think it makes Discovery more realistic, the same as when you're watching a movie that has people speaking multiple languages like in real life instead of everyone speaking English.

Given that the humans themselves have multiple words for humans (e.g. Human, Earthling, Terran), it is fair to imagine that the Klingons do too, and/or that usages may have evolved over the course of the 23rd century.

Yes, that is a great point. I thought of another one, Homo Sapiens.

Also, the language in real life has evolved a lot since the first version of the Klingon Dictionary. I even remember audio tapes like "Power Klingon" and other advanced supplements for the Klingon language purist, though my love of the alien tongue never went that far.

Earth has multiple words for humans in english alone. We have how many different languages?

Batman wrote: 2017-11-12 08:54pm Earth has multiple words for humans in english alone. We have how many different languages?

6909 recognized living languages in 2009, 7099 in 2017.

nationsonline.org
linguisticsociety.org
Both these sources are from Ethnologue of 2009.

Enthologue current About page at time of this post.

Some things that popped out to me in the last couple of episodes

1. Star Fleet still has the worst UI designers. It's really unclear why the weapons officer needs to keep turning around 180 degrees to work the panel behind him.

2 . Lots of tell but no show about the potential firepower of the Klingon ship above Pahvo

3. Took a number of torpedoes to blast an unshielded ship, albeit a large one

bilateralrope wrote: 2017-11-04 11:07am Some other points from the episode to show the writers "skill" at worldbuilding:
- Endangered species that lives in deep space. Starfleet ships are under orders to take it to a zoo. Which means beaming it aboard ship, which likely exposes it to the thickest atmosphere and highest gravity that it has ever experienced. No wonder it's endangered.

So true! Not to mention a StarFleet where a murduerous hijacker is 'punished' by going off to marry his rich Fiancé.

Um-the panel is BEHIND him. You can argue the wisdom of putting it there but having to do a 180 to operate it is kind of unavoidable.

So after rewatching the pilot of Enterprise and the latest two episodes of Discovery I am having a hard time figuring out which show is actually worse. Enterprise definitely feels more trek to me than STD does so far.

I'm going with the theory they want to put some distance between themselves and old Star Trek (TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, Enterprise) and to be honest I do find both Enterprise and Voyager to be the two worst Trek series ever produced (Though I love Enterprise era, but B&B ruined it for me) and so far Discovery is showing to be more interesting.
But I'm annoyed by the fact Discovery will probably never gve up its new tech over to starfleet so they can equip its fleets with the new FTL drive. I would love to see they break new ground and put this series on the sideline of the others and see how this new timeline evolves instead of pretending to be true to the old Star Trek, it does not even look it belongs to the old series.

Once again I am sad to say I pretty much called the entirety go the episode in the first 5min.
As soon as Michael was going on about "The Whole planet resonating together" I said out loud "Oh they are doing a living planet thing" And from there I called it was going to "infect" one or more of the crew. As someone else said earlier:
"How bad at writing are you when the audience can guess every thing you intend on doing?"

I mean the episode with the jail break wasn't even fully over and people were saying that the prisoner was really a Klingon in disguise who would infiltrate the ship.

That said, MAN was this a mess of an episode, THREE different stories at once? Well if you could call what was happening to Engineer grump pants a "sub plot" it got all of two or three mentions in the episode. And once again, I am sure many of us saw that coming, I mean, seriously how long do you expect to be doing something that sends you across the fabric of time and space before it screws you over?

The 'main' sub plot with the captured Admiral was weak as hell. I mean, her plan was...what exactly, walk out of the Klingon ship? Cause that what they did. NO attempt to hide the prisoner, NO attempt to "sneak" out, I don't care how well you know the ship, there WILL be guards, patrols, random people...
And you say "I will escape with you" and then.... not bother to escape when you obviously have the chance?

What are they honestly playing at?

As someone else said earlier: "How bad at writing are you when the audience can guess every thing you intend on doing?"

Captain Lorca discussed how the spore drive could be used to access alternate universes. Already there are wild fan theories about Lorca, Stamets, and the entire premise of the show itself. Someone I know made an excellent point...Lorca's behavior in some circumstances would be easily explained by him being from the Mirror Universe. Also, his trophy case/personal research is more fitting of Mirror Phlox (ENT: In a Mirror, Darkly) than the stereotype of a Starfleet captain.

Plus, there's this little nugget....

Crossroads Inc. wrote: 2017-11-17 04:24pmAs someone else said earlier:
"How bad at writing are you when the audience can guess every thing you intend on doing?"

In general if the audience can't guess at what you intend on doing you're probably doing things wrong. It's worth reading Brian Upton's book "The Aesthetic of Play" where he discusses the idea of guessing what's going to happen as one of the core engagements of a story.

Crossroads Inc. wrote: 2017-11-17 04:24pm Once again I am sad to say I pretty much called the entirety go the episode in the first 5min.
As soon as Michael was going on about "The Whole planet resonating together" I said out loud "Oh they are doing a living planet thing" And from there I called it was going to "infect" one or more of the crew. As someone else said earlier:
"How bad at writing are you when the audience can guess every thing you intend on doing?"

I mean the episode with the jail break wasn't even fully over and people were saying that the prisoner was really a Klingon in disguise who would infiltrate the ship.

In fairness, when you're dealing with an audience who has watched all or most of 720 prior Star Trek episodes plus a great mass of other science fiction, at some point MOST plot twists become at least semi-predictable. No one notices all the times when an audience member predicts a plot twist that doesn't happen, either; it's like the prophecies of Nostradamus.

Further to the above, a plot twist that the audience could not possibly have predicted is usually bad, it usually consists of the author pulling things out of their ass just so they can shout "surprise! bet you didn't see that coming". The aim isn't to do that, the aim is to make people say "how did I miss that?".

The best plot twists work because when you go back through the story knowing they were there you see all the clues that were actually there that you didn't pay attention to. (Like how nobody else talks to Bruce Willis in The Sixth Sense ever and people repeatedly turn up the temperature when he's present indicating that his presence makes the place colder.)

I had busy week at work and only just got to watch the episode. Some thoughts:
- Fuck ending seasons on a cliffhanger. Especially when they wrap up the plot of the episode, then use the cliffhanger to start the next one.
- How did they know that Klingon ships can't use shields while cloaked ?
- Shoulder mounted torches seem a very bad idea as the wearer get the light in their eyes every time they turn their head. What's wrong with a headlamp for when you want a hands-free torch ?
- Having the sensor devices vocalize that they have been turned on seems a bad idea when sneaking them into a populated location.

Thanas wrote: 2017-11-16 11:45am So after rewatching the pilot of Enterprise and the latest two episodes of Discovery I am having a hard time figuring out which show is actually worse. Enterprise definitely feels more trek to me than STD does so far.

Consider the words from the TOS opening:

Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before.

TOS and TNG had a lot of episodes where they were seeking out new life and civilizations. Voyager kept running into them on its way home. I don't remember much of Enterprise, and I only watched the first season, but even when it was running into civilizations that had been seen in other Trek, it was the first time the Federation encountered them. DS9 didn't encounter as many new civilizations. But it spend a lot of time focused on the result of encountering one new civilization: The Dominion. So DS9 still fits with the TOS opening.

STD spent all its time focused on Klingons. The few examples of new life they found were just exploited by the Discovery to further the war.

Crossroads Inc. wrote: 2017-11-17 04:24pm As someone else said earlier:
"How bad at writing are you when the audience can guess every thing you intend on doing?"

How many people guessed at it ?
How many people just saw the theory that one person posted and decided that it fitted ?


Better question: How many weekly TV series have done plot twists like that without it being worked out ahead of time by people discussing the show online after every episode ?