S. 8472 vs Empire

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-28 07:39pm

Yet you have admitted that when 7 of 9's "5 light year" idea came up. Make up your mind. You are treating meaningless, desperate speculation as hard evidence, which it is not.

No I said it was stupid - I didnt say it wouldnt work.

You claim the Borg no nothing about their own technology - I rather desperate and stupid claim.

So their top of the range stuff is a one-man fighter. That doesn't change the fact that they can't handle casualties, does it?

And once again you ignore all the other possible reason for retreating to dwell upon your own.

There tactic is too bunch up and remember the Borg have more torp launchers etc and once again even ship for ship its likely the Borg would win to seemingly superiour numbers.

Chakotay quote is obvious hyperbole - yet more desperation, you say hes inventing huge numbers to put Janeway off the idea of going into Borg space yet his systems figure stays close to reality.

You claim its hyperbole because????? he wants to put janeway off ah then why not same billions - that would put her off more, no wait trillions yeah yeah thats better.
Oh wait no because spouting insane figures will only weaken his case(something you should pay heed to).

I was mistaken on the & of 9 quote I believed she said it in prey but when I checked it again she only mentioned "100's of worlds".

The Borg hit and had near misses against a bioship in Scorp[ion part 1 with torps so it could easily happen again, if you watch 8472 tactics they close to near distances and I would admit that their targetting isnt great by any means (they only got off glancing blows against voyager however its possible they wanted to disable them.)

Just because they dont go around attacking people doesnt mean they are peace loving - their realm and its purity seems to be all that concerns them(prehaps the normal universe has little use to them).

They continuing attacking the Borg because they aint all that bright you admit yourself the Borg are dumb - the Borg would probably have attacked them again (and may have).

After they hammered the Borg im sure the queen would have stopped any further assaults into fluidic space so as not to further anger them.

You are saying they are cowards yet the Borg cant injure them still - if they are the war mongers you paint them to be why not come out of fluidic space and finish off the borg afterall the Borg cant hurt them so even cowards would dare to fight - thus this doesnt support your "conclusion".

The Borg dont develope add this to the fact that Voyager gave 8472 the nanotech all but urging them to come up with a defence against it shows that the Borg still cant hurt them.

If theyt were that affraid of their own mortality why risk the covert war against the Feds.

You assume that everyone was just giving it a go and no one really knew if it would work? - flimsy and the fact that they make the Starfleet mock up well outside Borg space is another pointer that they can open up portals where they like, or would you have us believe they shipped it from Borg space in those little ships of theirs and no one noticed this?

Janeway may or maynot know the limitations of entering 8472s realm but im sure seven and the 8472 know and 8472 was trying to do it before he fainted and 7 refused - thats enought to show that 2 people with knowledge of fluidic space were willing to try it (but you would have us believe that they werent sure).

I have stated they may not have partical shields but they have some resistance to physical impact - I even say this in the part you quoted, so what gives?

Negotiate - with the Borg, a race who had just arrived attacked them and said they would enslave them?

Hell no the Borg shouldnt be negotiated with they should be destroyed, they cant be trusted anyone who has had any dealings with them knows this.

Janeway is blackmailing them she isnt trusting them.

Once again im not claiming good intentin Im simply saying that the Borg started the war and 8472 responded in kind.

Once they realised tHumans could be trusted that was it there was peace - they could have blown Voyager out of the sky if they were the madmen you paint them to be.

Boothby wasnt afraid he even say to voyager that he can kill them in one shot - yeah hes quaking in his boots.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-28 07:47pm

Darth Wong wrote:Just a quick recap for those who are just tuning in:

Darkling claims that S8472 was not cowardly to run upon encountering a weapon that can kill their one-man ships with close-proximity detonations, even though all modern soldiers and pilots fight with the knowledge that their enemies have such weapons, and the possibility of death from enemy weapons has been a constant throughout the entire history of warfare.

When confronted with the obvious weakness in this position, he tried to claim that they had a legitimate and logical reason to run because this weapon gave the Borg tactical and strategic superiority, despite S8472's supposed ability to pop out of fluidic space and destroy planets at will with no warning.

When confronted with the fact that this obviously implies S8472 is much weaker than he has previously claimed it to be, he suddenly comes up with a new theory: S8472 is holding back! They're now pacifists, who only fight to defend their "realm", and all of that attempted genocide/"the weak must perish" stuff was just a big mistake.

I can't wait to see what he tries to pull next.

Hmm you could have done some of those Pro-stalin propaganda flicks for the states during the War - "Uncle Jo"

Darth Wong claims that anything less than throwing your troops to their deaths without any use for tactics is cowardly.

He also ignored the fact that 8472's ability to blow up planets wont help them defend their realm against a huge Borg weapons and numbers advantge (and these unknown aliens that have suddenly appeared than seem to be helping the Borg).

When shown that fighting a Defnsive war does highlight 8472s weakness he claims I ignore it and say they are strong in all areas.

8472 are not pacifist but nor are they evil incarnate as darth wong would have you believe they were simply killing a race that dared to violate their realm - DW thinks they should have sat down over tea and crumpets and talked the situation out with the Borg.

He has yet to come up with a reason for 8472 not coming back into Borg space apart from they were worried that the Borg might have adpated to them even though the fact of the matter is we are tolfd the Borg cant addapt well without assimilation.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-28 08:05pm

Lets cut to the chase.

You assert that 8472s retreat proves they are cowards.

I show that retreating is a perfectly reasonable tactic in hat situation.

You assert that 8472 non return also shows they are cowards.

I state that they could still attack ecven if they were cowards.

You then state the Borg can adapt a weapon to defeat them (what irony).

I state that we have no evidence for thsi and the Borg could have done this way before that point yet 8472 still attacked.

In short you cant prove that they are cowards - the retreat was if not the correct stratedgy it was at least an understandable one.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-07-28 08:16pm

TheDarkling wrote:Lets cut to the chase.

You mean, without all of the bullshit evasions and rhetorical games you've played in the last two messages above?

You assert that 8472s retreat proves they are cowards.
I show that retreating is a perfectly reasonable tactic in hat situation.

Only if they are far weaker than you claim them to be.

You assert that 8472 non return also shows they are cowards.
I state that they could still attack ecven if they were cowards.

But you provide no plausible explanation for their failure to do so. Your only attempt to do so (claiming pacifism) is simply laughable and you know it.

You then state the Borg can adapt a weapon to defeat them (what irony).

A trained monkey could develop a weapon to defeat them, now that we know they have no particle shields.

I state that we have no evidence for thsi

You have a funny definition of "evidence". I have showed elsewhere, very clearly, that 7 of 9's "5 light year" quote makes no sense whatsoever, therefore she is either an idiot or you are grossly misinterpreting her claim. You ignore the logic and hard numbers produced to support this claim, and say that I have no "evidence". I have repeatedly pointed out that the predictions generated by a "millions of ships" Borg scenario are simply inconsistent with observation. Again, you act as though I have no evidence, and when I destroy your Chakotay hyperbole, you call that "desperation" and repeat your deceptive claim for the evidence which I have already provided.

Could it be that you do not regard any objective, rational methods as "evidence" and that you accept nothing but dialogue? You can see something but not believe it or accept any analyses derived therein until some character confirms it in words?

Y and the Borg could have done this way before that point yet 8472 still attacked.

Gee, you've never heard of overconfidence in a military situation before? Guess we'd better go back and rewrite all of those history books, eh?

In short you cant prove that they are cowards

No, but I can prove that you are caught between two equally unpalatable choices, between which you consistently shift positions when convenient:

1) They are capable of destroying whole worlds with no warning, anywhere they please, in vast numbers. They retreated and never came back in spite of this astounding military advantage. Therefore, they are cowards.
2) They have tactical limitations and cannot do as you say, so the appearance of weaponry which can damage their ships brings them down to Earth, so to speak. They must fight using conventional tactics, hence they no longer have an advantage over the Borg, hence stalemate.

the retreat was if not the correct stratedgy it was at least an understandable one.

Sure, if you choose option #2. Your problem is (as I have stated repeatedly) that you want to have your cake and eat it too.

Lord_Vader · Post by **Lord_Vader** » 2002-07-28 08:21pm

Ladies and gentlemen...Lord Wong has essentially delivered a 'smackdown'.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-28 08:30pm

Borg < Trained Monkey - you have watched the show right?

There entire war with the Borg was based upon one fact - they can defeat the Borg with no problem.

Once this was eliminated they were in a bad sitaution (especially since the Borg had at least equal numbers and fire power(probably alot more from the battles we saw)).

However their entire war with the empire would be based upon another fact - Imps cant attack them at home thus they can pick and choose their targets.

That being said the Borg seemingly out numbered them and suddenly a new alien race with advanced technology (yeah right) shows up working in concert with the Borg - I would pull back and try to figure out what was going on.
Anyone who wouldnt is a complete fool.

The reason they didnt return? all I can assume is that they learnt that our realm wasnt a threat (prehaps after they pulled out the Borg didnt re enter fluidic space thus 8472 finding their mission a sucess ceased operations.)

Against 8472 Imps < Borg simply because while the Imps can do more damage they cant attack 8472 at home like the Borg could if they had the nanoprobe weapons.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-28 08:31pm

Lord_Vader: You sad little fellow.

That doesnt even resemble a Imperial smackdown TM.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-07-28 08:42pm

TheDarkling wrote:You claim the Borg no nothing about their own technology - I rather desperate and stupid claim.

One which is mysteriously backed up with a clear example (7 of 9's statement), simple logic, and hard numbers. You deny it because you find it subjectively annoying, even though you can't actually find anything logically wrong with it, or even make the slightest attempt to rationalize 7 of 9's ridiculous statement.

If you're going to disprove my claim that the Borg are morons who barely understand their own technology (not surprising, since they assimilate it without analyzing it, and the entire Collective was unable to perform simple modifications to their nanoprobes that Voyager's Holo-doc performed in a couple of hours), you're going to need to come up with something better than your emotional denials.

There tactic is too bunch up and remember the Borg have more torp launchers etc and once again even ship for ship its likely the Borg would win to seemingly superiour numbers.

ROTFLMAO!! Their tactic is to bunch up, hence they have no way of reducing the casualties from proximity-effect torpedoes? Ah, I see. So you're saying that they're indescribably stupid instead of cowardly. Thanks for the clarification.

Chakotay quote is obvious hyperbole - yet more desperation, you say hes inventing huge numbers to put Janeway off the idea of going into Borg space yet his systems figure stays close to reality. You claim its hyperbole because?????

Because the number of ships does not match with observation. It requires thousands of ships per system, and we see no such thing. I have said this over and over and over, and so has every other person in this thread, and you have consistently ignored it. "Fess up; you are desperately trying to ignore objective evidence in favour of subjective evidence, by elevating a preferred interpretation of Chakotay's dialogue over our observations of the numbers of ships the Borg had available for their crucial rendezvous with Janeway (not to mention the 15-ship "armada" at the beginning, or Janeway's briefing).

Are you now saying that Chakotay had scanned the entirety of Borg space and counted all the ships? What makes you think he knows any more about the number of ships than you or I do? We can see the number of ships in a battle group (15), and we can see the number of ships for the crucial rendezvous around a Borg system (3). Neither supports your speculation about Chakotay's statement being an accurate, literal ship count.

I was mistaken on the & of 9 quote I believed she said it in prey but when I checked it again she only mentioned "100's of worlds".

Which is what we find in the "passage".

The Borg hit and had near misses against a bioship in Scorp[ion part 1 with torps so it could easily happen again, if you watch 8472 tactics they close to near distances and I would admit that their targetting isnt great by any means (they only got off glancing blows against voyager however its possible they wanted to disable them.)

So they'll be easy for Imperial Star Destroyers to kill. Concession accepted.

Just because they dont go around attacking people doesnt mean they are peace loving - their realm and its purity seems to be all that concerns them(prehaps the normal universe has little use to them).

Yes it does. That is what it means to be peace loving; you don't start a war unless you're defending yourself, and you don't continue one if there is no persistent threat to your own safety.

They continuing attacking the Borg because they aint all that bright you admit yourself the Borg are dumb - the Borg would probably have attacked them again (and may have).

So they did have a motive to return and finish off the Borg, despite your claims to the contrary. Therefore, the fact that they did not return is due to intimidation. Concession accepted.

After they hammered the Borg im sure the queen would have stopped any further assaults into fluidic space so as not to further anger them.

You said previously that they came back and attacked again in Unimatrix Zero. Now, you're saying that they don't attack unless attacked, and the Borg won't attack any more because they suddenly grew a brain. Make up your mind.

You are saying they are cowards yet the Borg cant injure them still - if they are the war mongers you paint them to be why not come out of fluidic space and finish off the borg afterall the Borg cant hurt them so even cowards would dare to fight - thus this doesnt support your "conclusion".

I answered this point last time. It is extremely bad form to repeat a point without alteration rather than addressing a rebuttal.

The Borg dont develope add this to the fact that Voyager gave 8472 the nanotech all but urging them to come up with a defence against it shows that the Borg still cant hurt them.

Sure they can hurt them. Just ram them. Even the moronic Borg are likely to be able to refine this tactic sooner or later.

If theyt were that affraid of their own mortality why risk the covert war against the Feds.

What's the risk? They're sneaking around and camouflaging themselves as Feddies because they're worried the pathetic little Federation will destroy them? That's cowardice if i ever saw it, particularly if they are as powerful as you say.

You assume that everyone was just giving it a go and no one really knew if it would work? - flimsy

You can't deny theories simply with one-word rebuttals like "flimsy" or "desperate". I have explained exactly why you have made a leap in logic, and your only response is "flimsy". Starfleet's technological recklessness and incompetence is well documented. Does "soliton wave" sound familiar to you? How about nearly destroying their starship with a transwarp experiment?

and the fact that they make the Starfleet mock up well outside Borg space is another pointer that they can open up portals where they like, or would you have us believe they shipped it from Borg space in those little ships of theirs and no one noticed this?

I don't have to. You said yourself that there were skirmishes alluded to in Unimatrix Zero. They're sneaking in and then trying to run far away from Borg territory so they can conduct their spying operations. They don't have the balls to destroy the Federation so they're spying on them, and they don't have the balls to take on the Borg just in case they figured out how to hurt them too. They're feeble.

Janeway may or maynot know the limitations of entering 8472s realm but im sure seven and the 8472 know and 8472 was trying to do it before he fainted and 7 refused - thats enought to show that 2 people with knowledge of fluidic space were willing to try it (but you would have us believe that they werent sure).

I already addressed this last time. Again, you try to refute it by simply ridiculing it, without finding a hole in my logic. It is obvious you have no logical rebuttal, hence you are tacitly acknowledging that your subjective resistance is all that you have to offer. Concesson accepted.

I have stated they may not have partical shields but they have some resistance to physical impact - I even say this in the part you quoted, so what gives?

You had previously demanded "evidence they have no particle shielding". You have now quietly backed off without admitting you were wrong. I was just trying to get you to admit it openly, without these evasions.

Negotiate - with the Borg, a race who had just arrived attacked them and said they would enslave them?

No, negotiation after they have the Borg on their knees, if they are the pacifists you make them out to be.

Hell no the Borg shouldnt be negotiated with they should be destroyed, they cant be trusted anyone who has had any dealings with them knows this.

Good. Now explain why Species 8472 didn't finish them off despite your claims of vast galaxy-spanning planet-destroying capability. You keep shifting your claims: first S8472 stayed away because their realm was not in danger any more, and now you acknowledge that their realm was very much in danger. How many times can you contradict yourself before you hurt yourself badly?

Once they realised tHumans could be trusted that was it there was peace - they could have blown Voyager out of the sky if they were the madmen you paint them to be.

Oh, right. "The weak shall perish" is not the sentiment of a madman.

Boothby wasnt afraid he even say to voyager that he can kill them in one shot - yeah hes quaking in his boots.

You've never heard of the term "bluff"?

Every one of your arguments is based on preferred interpretations of dialogue and motivations behind dialogue, rather than objective data such as visible number of ships around Borg systems, visible range at which nanoprobe torpedo was effective, lack of follow-up attack from S8472, etc. You try to counter events and visuals with "he said this, so he must have been thinking that". That's subjective bullshit and you know it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-07-28 08:58pm

TheDarkling wrote:Borg < Trained Monkey - you have watched the show right?

Humourous, but in all seriousness, I would say that the Borg Collective has the intellect of a typical 10-12 year old human child. They cannot analyze or draw logical conclusions very well, but they can understand language and operate certain kinds of machinery. While not particularly impressive, this is still well above that of a trained monkey. More than enough to figure out that S8472 bioships can be hurt or killed when you hit them with a physical object, since they already did it once.

There entire war with the Borg was based upon one fact - they can defeat the Borg with no problem.

Once this was eliminated they were in a bad sitaution (especially since the Borg had at least equal numbers and fire power(probably alot more from the battles we saw)).

If they had the galaxy-spanning planet-destroying power you described, they would still be able to defeat the Borg with no problem, nanoprobe torpedo or no nanoprobe torpedo. I have made this point repeatedly, and you have consistently ignored it.

However their entire war with the empire would be based upon another fact - Imps cant attack them at home thus they can pick and choose their targets.

Nonsense. Even if the Imperials can't figure out a way to open a breach (which seems highly unlikely once they make it a priority), they can simply wound a bioship instead of vapouring it, and then follow it into fluidic space when it runs. Even one ISD in fluidic space would cause untold havoc.

That being said the Borg seemingly out numbered them and suddenly a new alien race with advanced technology (yeah right) shows up working in concert with the Borg - I would pull back and try to figure out what was going on.

Not if you had all this strategic power you keep alluding to. No, then you would simply destroy their planets and avoid ship-to-ship confrontations. The fact that they could not do this despite the continuing threat (which you have quietly acknowledged despite past denials) indicates that they do not have the strategic power you attribute to them.

Anyone who wouldnt is a complete fool.

Or someone who has the kind of awesome strategic power you attribute to Species 8472 whenever you're not talking about the Borg.

The reason they didnt return? all I can assume is that they learnt that our realm wasnt a threat (prehaps after they pulled out the Borg didnt re enter fluidic space thus 8472 finding their mission a sucess ceased operations.)

Here comes the pacifist S8472 interpretation again ... kumbaya ...

Against 8472 Imps < Borg simply because while the Imps can do more damage they cant attack 8472 at home like the Borg could if they had the nanoprobe weapons.

Even if you're right, they can annihilate their ships, including their precious planet-killer, thus ruining their army. If they start getting frustrated, they can wound their bioships, extract the pilot, and then start torturing them with various medical experiments. That could be a lot of fun when dealing with a telepathic species.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-28 09:00pm

OK the borg get 400 ships disabled with 8 planets.

Thus 3 ship per planets doesnt seem to fit , the fact that the Borg lost 100's of planets points to this not being a huge engagement so why have a huge group there?.

You state the Borg are idiots - how can they make a KE weapon then?

I never said ISDs couldnt kill them easily - nor am I saying they could its not relevant to issue of 8472s nature.

No peace-loving doesnt mean that at all - 8472 had nothing to gain b y war so why continue it, making peace at the expense of advantages is peace loving.

Gathering Intel is cowardly??? no its stupid to not study a new and dangerous enemy - HOW MANY TIMES?

You are possing a theory against the more reasonable conclusion simply because it supports your theory - all evidence points to their ability to open portals where ever - you "maybe seven" or "maybe 8472 didnt". you say everyone is just stupid and has no knowledge instead of concluding that these people know whats going on and that 8472 can infact open up portals everywhere.

You have no rebuttal but to say "they are all wrong" - I ask why? because it fits your theory better - ah I see

I already stated the partical shielding three posts ago unlike you I do know how to read and understand so I can clearly see this.

THEY ARENT PACIFISTS.
You got that?

THEY ARENT PACIFISTS

How about now?

Yeah he was bluffing - all your claims distort what people are saying because if anyone is taken at face value you theory falls apart.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-28 09:09pm

Darth Wong: Now I Know in your world a single ISD can take the entire Culture on but in actual reasonable land things are a bit different.

The Borg couldnt modify hteir technology because they arent creative yet you expect them to invent an entire new weapon?

BORG ATTACK THEM - they destroy borg
BORG DESTROY THEM - MAD isnt a solution either wants.

I now see where we are going wrong.
I say that 8472 would actually be able to injure the empire yet I claim they arent godlike in power and have to actually be intelligent and not rush in.

However since in you eyes the Imps are godlike you can wrap your mind around the concept.

8472 still need to be intelligent and when a New Species and weapon appears they pause - thats called using you brain.

They have several planet killers (100s of planets remember oh I forgot 7 once said something that didnt make sense so everything she says is wrong).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-07-28 09:48pm

TheDarkling wrote:OK the borg get 400 ships disabled with 8 planets.

Right. If we assume 3 ships per planet and 15 ships per mobile battle group (as per "Scorpion"), that's 24 ships destroyed in orbit around 8 planets and 276 ships destroyed in open-space engagements. This would make sense, given that the Borg are presumably moving all of their forces to engage S8472. There would obviously be an unusual concentration of mobile Borg fleets in the area (unless you believe that the Borg would not increase fleet concentrations at the point of conflict; even they aren't that stupid).

Thus 3 ship per planets doesnt seem to fit , the fact that the Borg lost 100's of planets points to this not being a huge engagement so why have a huge group there?

Yes, of course. They would rather keep all of their ships in their normal locations, and make no effort whatsoever to concentrate force at the point of attack, because the attackers destroyed only 8 planets instead of 50.

You state the Borg are idiots - how can they make a KE weapon then?

Cavemen were idiots, and they made primitive KE weapons. Europeans were using projectile weapons when they were still throwing shit out the window for lack of a running-water system. Even the moronic Borg can make a KE weapon if they want to.

I never said ISDs couldnt kill them easily - nor am I saying they could its not relevant to issue of 8472s nature.

But is is relevant to the question of whether S8472 is going to attack the Empire. To put it simply, they have never demonstrated the will to attack anyone who could hurt them in return. The Empire can hurt them (and make them feel it; what effect would ruthless, methodical torture of captured pilots have on a species which shares its thoughts?)

No peace-loving doesnt mean that at all - 8472 had nothing to gain b y war so why continue it, making peace at the expense of advantages is peace loving.

S8472 has a lot to gain by war. They were facing an enemy who could not be bargained with, and who had demonstrated a history of aggression and ruthlessness. This enemy could not be trusted to leave them alone. You said so yourself, remember?

Gathering Intel is cowardly??? no its stupid to not study a new and dangerous enemy - HOW MANY TIMES?

Halting your entire war campaign to gather intel on a puny organization with weak ships because of a half-dozen casualties is cowardly. Running away and leaving a wounded comrade behind after a half-dozen casualties is cowardly (see "Prey"). It might be perfectly reasonable if this organization were actually capable of destroying you, but you don't want to admit that S8472 is so weak that the Federation could destroy them, do you? They already knew so much about the Federation that they could simulate Starfleet Academy; they obviously knew their capabilites, yet they still saw them as a serious threat. How can this be, if they are as powerful as you surmise?

Face it; they're simply not as powerful as you surmise. The level of destruction they caused in Borg space was all out of proportion to their real power, and it was due to the fact that they were completely invulnerable to Borg weapons. Take that away, and they fall to Earth.

You are possing a theory against the more reasonable conclusion simply because it supports your theory - all evidence points to their ability to open portals where ever - you "maybe seven" or "maybe 8472 didnt". you say everyone is just stupid and has no knowledge instead of concluding that these people know whats going on and that 8472 can infact open up portals everywhere.

Then why didn't they open up portals everywhere? They left a wounded comrade behind; why didn't they pop open a portal and pick him up? He lost his communications gear and couldn't call for help? They're long-range telepathic, remember? Face it; they have never opened up a portal anywhere but one area of space, and your conjecture that they can do so is unsupported in logic, unsupported by their inability to rescue their wounded comrade, and supported only by bizarre subjective "evidence" in the form of "she said this, so she must have been thinking that, and she couldn't possibly be wrong despite the sordid history of Feddie technical blunders".

You have no rebuttal but to say "they are all wrong" - I ask why? because it fits your theory better - ah I see

I have many rebuttals. You have been fastidiously ignoring them.

I already stated the partical shielding three posts ago unlike you I do know how to read and understand so I can clearly see this.

Thank you for admitting that the almighty S8472 can be destroyed by any simple projectile weapon.

THEY ARENT PACIFISTS. You got that?

Then stop saying that they would refrain from attacking even when they have every reason to do so.

Yeah he was bluffing - all your claims distort what people are saying because if anyone is taken at face value you theory falls apart.

"Face value"? Face value is that you bluff when you're afraid, and you're obviously afraid if you've halted your entire war effort in order to conduct surveillance on one particular party because you're concerned that they might invade you. No, it is you who are denying the most obvious interpretation in favour of one that is convenient for you.

Moreover, that's all this is: interpretation. Subjective and unreliable. The hard objective facts all defy you.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-07-28 09:56pm

TheDarkling wrote:Darth Wong: Now I Know in your world a single ISD can take the entire Culture on but in actual reasonable land things are a bit different.

And now you're resorting to a fallacious attempt to impugn my character with implied bias. I see you've given up all pretense, and thrown logic to the winds. Read my lips: I don't give a shit if the Culture can beat up on Star Wars. It's a red herring, and you are simply making yourself look bad now.

The Borg couldnt modify hteir technology because they arent creative yet you expect them to invent an entire new weapon?

New? You think a simple slug-thrower is new? They've never assimilated a society in their entire existence which had slug-throwers at any point in their history? Correction: a simple projectile weapon is a very old weapon.

BORG ATTACK THEM - they destroy borg
BORG DESTROY THEM - MAD isnt a solution either wants.

MAD doesn't happen since they can still destroy Borg ships by ... oh, I dunno ... shooting at them? If they are anywhere near as dangerous as you claim, they can still annihilate the Borg. And since the Borg do not have the kind of galaxy-wide planet-killing ability you attribute to S8472, this is not a MAD situation. This is more of an "I can kill you, and you can cause minor casualties to me" situation.

I now see where we are going wrong.
I say that 8472 would actually be able to injure the empire yet I claim they arent godlike in power and have to actually be intelligent and not rush in.

Is that before or after the part where you claim they can range far and wide over Imperial space, popping into existence at will and blowing up planets left and right?

However since in you eyes the Imps are godlike you can wrap your mind around the concept.

More ad hominem; trying to paint me with bias using the "unknown warsie" attack (see the Timothy Jones FAQ).

8472 still need to be intelligent and when a New Species and weapon appears they pause - thats called using you brain.

Pause for years and never launch a major offensive ever again. That's not called "using your brain"; that's called "losing your balls".

They have several planet killers (100s of planets remember oh I forgot 7 once said something that didnt make sense so everything she says is wrong).

Proof through exclusive use of ridicule; I see. Your logical debating skills continue to deteriorate.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-28 09:58pm

If they consider the Federation too dangerous to attack, they must be -really- weak. Come on, Darkling, will you just accept that they're hopelessly outgunned?

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2002-07-28 10:00pm

What Mike is saying, that you don't seem to be getting, is that even with the Borg weapons that could destroy S8472 ships, S8472 had no reason to retreat or even significantly change their tactics. They still packed significantly more firepower than the Borg had and by virtue of their drive system, could deliver that fire with impunity to any point in Borg space without the Borg being able to stop them. Remember how Guinan said that no one could deal with the Borg? After just 8 lost planets and a few hundred cubes, they were already smarting enough that the Borg were willing to deal with Voyager. S8472 clearly had them on the ropes, all it had to do was press a bit harder and the Borg would have broke. Even with the new weapon, the Borg couldn't possibly prevent S8472 from burying them.
Considering the numbers they were supposed to have, the paltry few loses S8472 took were well within the bounds of acceptable loses. In fact, considering the amount of sorties they've undertook, they were way ahead of the game. And even if they somehow took major losses from the Borg, so what? Their industrial base is still completely intact and the only race that has access to it or even knows its there was destroyed. This gives them alot of breathing room and they have time to regroup and rebuild.

Yet they ran after a few dozen loses. Appearantly, whatever else S8472 has in terms of organs, testicles aren't one of them.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-07-28 10:02pm

SirNitram wrote:If they consider the Federation too dangerous to attack, they must be -really- weak. Come on, Darkling, will you just accept that they're hopelessly outgunned?

IIRC they consider the UFP to not be a threat to them, basically S8472 discovered that not all other lifeforms are an "infection" and deserve to be removed.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-28 10:04pm

I wont correct your math I will just allude to it as a slight.

For you theory to work we must assume the following:-

8472 are weak.
8472 are cowards.

To futher support this we must also assume the following :-

Members of species 8472 have no unde3rstanding of transit to or from their realm.
7 of 9 has no understanding of transit to or from 8472's realm.
Janeway and co have no understanding of transit to or from 8472s realm.
8472's telepathy works across the dimensional barrier.
8472 magically knew enough about the federation to judge their power - how, well they just did - somehow, justification - the two years they spent monitoring SF command couldnt possibly have give this knowledge so they simply magically obtained it from the ether as soon as they met the Federation.
Boothby was bluffing his way past Janeway - this one is possible, I will get the episode to judge it.
Not attacking everything in sight makes you either a coward or pacifist.
Trying to discover information about an enemy is cowardly, charging in without intel is the way all REAL MEN conduct war.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-07-28 10:05pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:What Mike is saying, that you don't seem to be getting, is that even with the Borg weapons that could destroy S8472 ships, S8472 had no reason to retreat or even significantly change their tactics. They still packed significantly more firepower than the Borg had and by virtue of their drive system, could deliver that fire with impunity to any point in Borg space without the Borg being able to stop them. Remember how Guinan said that no one could deal with the Borg? After just 8 lost planets and a few hundred cubes, they were already smarting enough that the Borg were willing to deal with Voyager. S8472 clearly had them on the ropes, all it had to do was press a bit harder and the Borg would have broke. Even with the new weapon, the Borg couldn't possibly prevent S8472 from burying them.
Considering the numbers they were supposed to have, the paltry few loses S8472 took were well within the bounds of acceptable loses. In fact, considering the amount of sorties they've undertook, they were way ahead of the game. And even if they somehow took major losses from the Borg, so what? Their industrial base is still completely intact and the only race that has access to it or even knows its there was destroyed. This gives them alot of breathing room and they have time to regroup and rebuild.

Yet they ran after a few dozen loses. Appearantly, whatever else S8472 has in terms of organs, testicles aren't one of them.

A weapon that delivers one hit kills is not enough reason to stop and look for another method?

IMO S8472 ran away because they were fighting an enemy which they were defeating easily......and then they turned around and started throwing one hit knock outs.

I don't think S8472 could deal with the Empire, simply because given the firepower ratio between ISD and Borg.....an ISD could deliver one hit knock outs against S8472 as well.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-28 10:11pm

A Reminder this thread is dedcate to the idea that 8472 for some crazy reason, Could be anything, Could be they think Vadars Voice is annoying, Well for some reason they have attacked the Empire how would the fighting work?

Lay assid would they ever attack to being with and instead consetrate on what the intial engament would look like and for the sake of aurgment assume that 8472 has a Hitler thinkalike in control(IE an idiot who attacks no matter how strong his enemy)

A call back on topic is nessary and I have made it

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2002-07-28 10:14pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:A weapon that delivers one hit kills is not enough reason to stop and look for another method?

IMO S8472 ran away because they were fighting an enemy which they were defeating easily......and then they turned around and started throwing one hit knock outs.

I don't think S8472 could deal with the Empire, simply because given the firepower ratio between ISD and Borg.....an ISD could deliver one hit knock outs against S8472 as well.

Machine guns frequently deliver one hit kills as well, does mean that we should not send troops into areas with MG encampments? Normandy wouldn't have happened if you were in charge. Just because something that can destroy your units in one shot exists does not mean that you should abandon your plans entirely. There is such things as acceptable causalities. Considering that S8472 had the strategic advantage of being able to strike at any point in Borg space, with as many ships as they want, without the Borg being able to do anything about it, and that supposedly S8472 had a vast fleet, taken even a loss of a thousand ships to completely destroy the only enemy that can threatening your home base is quite acceptable in my book. No one ever won a war by being unable to stomache causalties.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-07-28 10:20pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:A weapon that delivers one hit kills is not enough reason to stop and look for another method?

IMO S8472 ran away because they were fighting an enemy which they were defeating easily......and then they turned around and started throwing one hit knock outs.

I don't think S8472 could deal with the Empire, simply because given the firepower ratio between ISD and Borg.....an ISD could deliver one hit knock outs against S8472 as well.
Machine guns frequently deliver one hit kills as well, does mean that we should not send troops into areas with MG encampments? Normandy wouldn't have happened if you were in charge. Just because something that can destroy your units in one shot exists does not mean that you should abandon your plans entirely. There is such things as acceptable causalities. Considering that S8472 had the strategic advantage of being able to strike at any point in Borg space, with as many ships as they want, without the Borg being able to do anything about it, and that supposedly S8472 had a vast fleet, taken even a loss of a thousand ships to completely destroy the only enemy that can threatening your home base is quite acceptable in my book. No one ever won a war by being unable to stomache causalties.

No, that's not what I am saying. Lets imagine you are part of a unit...you walking through a city which may have enemy forces in it. A MG emplacement opens up on you kill several of your men

Do you;

A) Continue doing the same thing you were before the MG fired on you.

B) Find another way to bypass the MG, or find a way to take it out?

This is what I am saying....

When Voyager fired on S8472 with these new weapons....S8472 retreated and began planning.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-28 10:29pm

Except they never came back....

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2002-07-28 10:32pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:No, that's not what I am saying. Lets imagine you are part of a unit...you walking through a city which may have enemy forces in it. A MG emplacement opens up on you kill several of your men

Do you;

A) Continue doing the same thing you were before the MG fired on you.

B) Find another way to bypass the MG, or find a way to take it out?

This is what I am saying....

When Voyager fired on S8472 with these new weapons....S8472 retreated and began planning.

If we are using S8472/Borg as an analogy, use my vastly superior firepower to destroy the encampment. Just because several of your soldiers die is no excuse to order a full retreat and abandon the mission, which is exactly what S8472 did. They had a very easy way to combat the Borg, even with their new weapon. They already control when and where the battle is happening and by virtue of their drives will always have superior numbers, just because things are a little bit messier doesn't nullify these sizeable advantages. If anything, it should have spurred them to step up attacks, to break the Borg industrial base and choke their resources.
The problem is that you are buying into the one shot wonder idea. One shot wonders are hardly undefeatable, especially with the sizable advantages that S8472 had.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-07-28 10:36pm

Mr Bean wrote:Except they never came back....

They did though.....they came back to invade the UFP. This sense because it was a UFP ship that caused the destruction of those ships. They could have mistaken the UFP to be a larger threat based on the incident.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-28 10:38pm

Gil Hamilton: In an offensive war you are correct - even with the new super weapon 8472 could still beat the Borg because they could decide upon the place and time of engagements, apart from the fact that the Borg could go into Fluidic space in droves and attack them there.

You also discount the fact that a new player with seemingly advanced tech suddenly appeared on the field - thats going to give anyone pause.