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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:And if the beach has coastal artillery....

This is Frequesue we're talking about here. It's not a place where Normandy-style assaults will be conducted with any kind of regularity.

EDIT:

Oh ok. I thought you are going to land heck of a lot of men in the form of light infantry, minus the vehicles...

Well, I certainly would like to (if I had a RO/RO ship to ferry the vehicles, that is), but that's obviously not a realistic scenario at this point in time, so for now I'm settling for the next best thing. Of course, in conjunction with FTO partners we might be able to pull more impressive landings.

I doubt he's gonna be waging conventional war. Frequesue is like Pseudo Africa, with South East Asian shitholes (Burma) and South-Central American holes mixed in. His LHD is probably just to transport a handful of tanks and troopers somewhere to give someone the militaristic equivalent of a stick-beating.

Like:

"Bad Robert Mugabe!" *M1s roll into Mogadishu and blow shit up*

More to the point you don't need Normandy style defenses in the modern world, you just do as Iran does, coat the water in mines, line the shore-line with anti-shipping missiles and AA assets and your good to go against everything but a giant rubber raft rush, in which case keep a Regiment of tanks and self propelled artillery in the area to rush forward to throw them back into the sea.

Unrelated to the LHD discussion, I'd just like to mention that the PRSF is probably a Principality in population and military but a Duchy in budget, thus its' troubles.

Mr Bean wrote:More to the point you don't need Normandy style defenses in the modern world, you just do as Iran does, coat the water in mines, line the shore-line with anti-shipping missiles and AA assets and your good to go against everything but a giant rubber raft rush, in which case keep a Regiment of tanks and self propelled artillery in the area to rush forward to throw them back into the sea.

Coastal defence artillery includes anti-ship missiles.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I could help you out with Super Chechnya, PeZook. A forward Shroomanian AF airbase?

Can't see why not

And as for integrating air defence networks, hell yeah. Common data-sharing standards, proper and redundant communications lines and a good chain of command will be necessary, though. And that means...costs.

SiegeTank wrote: FTO guys: Assuming for a minute that we're interested in running joint naval taskforces, we might want to look into what each of us is getting in terms of naval goodies?

My navy is pretty small. Right now I have 6 frigates, 4 modern subs, 3 destroyers, 6 sea capable corvettes, 1 LHA and two LST's for marine ops as well as a couple of support ships. I'm saying my nation's history is that when the MDC coalition took power, they cut defense budgets big time (which were bloated) and the navy suffered the most. I am likely to expand it some when I ramp up the budget to 5% GDP at the start of the game, especially if the FTO wants to form joint task forces.

Interestingly, when I compared my budget of $40 billion a year to real nations, my army turned out to be almost exactly the same size as Italy's, which has 11 brigades and around a $40 billion a year budget. Their navy is quite a bit larger though, while the air forces are about the same.

Raj Ahten wrote:My navy is pretty small. Right now I have 6 frigates, 4 modern subs, 3 destroyers, 6 sea capable corvettes, 1 LHA and two LST's for marine ops as well as a couple of support ships.

Interestingly, the LHA and LSTs are exactly what we need to (with the aid of my LHD) pull of the aforementioned more impressive landing ops. So that's one problem solved .

I am likely to expand it some when I ramp up the budget to 5% GDP at the start of the game, especially if the FTO wants to form joint task forces.

I think that would be a good thing to do. A good set of naval patrols around the coastlines sounds like the best way to (A) keep other people off our shores and (B) interdict against such nuisances as pirates etc, which we've apparently got our fair share of.

SiegeTank wrote:FTO guys: Assuming for a minute that we're interested in running joint naval taskforces, we might want to look into what each of us is getting in terms of naval goodies?

My Navy is mostly made up of corvettes (9), with one destroyer and two frigates, 2 LPDs, 2 LHDs, and an LST.

How in the world do you defend your landing ships, KK?

Holy shit, Indophal is spending 40 bil on defence?

And I thought I was overdoing it a little with 39 (2.94% GDP)

Czechmate wrote:How in the world do you defend your landing ships, KK?

Yea-ah I was wondering the same thing -- if you're going to have landing ships, you have to have a destroyer screen to guard them against attack, really...

That aside, if I tally up the forces of Indhopal, Coilerburg, San Dorado and the Vineyards I count (unless I'm totally mistaken):

3x LHD (large)
2x LHD (small)
2x LPD
1x LST
16x DDG
11x FFG
25x Corvette
10x SSK
2x SSN
5x AO
5x AKE
6x AOE

Which is a fairly respectable force; we ought to be able to establish a few taskforces with that...

Czechmate wrote:How in the world do you defend your landing ships, KK?

By joining with the FTO, and providing the corvettes and landing ships to the greater fleet.

Hm. the FTO lacks a real carrier. HIMS Admiral Sussex (non-nuclear full carrier) will do as a flagship. >:3

Karmic Knight wrote:By joining with the FTO, and providing the corvettes and landing ships to the greater fleet.

Fair enough, but I don't think we quite need 7 landing ships (3 large LHDs, 2 small LHDs, 2 LPDs). You might want to stick with 1 LPD, 1 LHD and your LST, and invest the 10 points you save in two destroyers and a frigate (or a cruiser and a destroyer).

Czechmate wrote:Hm. the FTO lacks a real carrier. HIMS Admiral Sussex (non-nuclear full carrier) will do as a flagship. >:3

Sweet .

Aw, what a cute little navy

SiegeTank wrote:Fair enough, but I don't think we quite need 7 landing ships (3 large LHDs, 2 small LHDs, 2 LPDs). You might want to stick with 1 LPD, 1 LHD and your LST, and invest the 10 points you save in two destroyers and a frigate (or a cruiser and a destroyer).

Alright,:

How's this for everyone? It is adapted from Beowulf's point system almost exactly:





CARRIERS and CARRIER-HYBRIDS:
Full-deck heavy CV......... 16 (Kitty Hawk; Nimitz w/"Nuclear" purchase)
Short-deck type............ 12 (Ark Royal; Clemenceau; Charles DeGaulle; Centaur)
Airplane-capable Cruisers.. 10 (Kiev)
VTOL/Helicarriers*......... 9 (Guiseppe Garibaldi; Hyuga; Chakri Naruebet)
Helicopter Cruisers........ 9 (Vittorio Veneto; Andrea Doria; R97/"Jeanne D'Arc")
(*CVS, or Sea Control Ships)

AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULT SHIPS:
Large LHA/LHD............. 8 (Wasp, Tarawa)
Small LHA/LHD............. 6 (Alligator; Dokdo; Ocean; Mistral)
LSD (Landing Ship Dock)... 4 (Harper's Ferry; Ouragan; Rotterdam/Galicia)
LPD (Amphib. Trans. Dock). 4 (San Antonio; Foudre)
LST (Landing Ship, Tank).. 2 (Ropucha; Ivan Rogov; General Frank S. Besson)
LST Light................. 1 (Polocny; BATRAL; Barbe)

SURFACE COMBATANTS, HEAVY:
Battleship............... 10 (Iowa; Bismarck; Yamato)[Obsolete; see MUSEUM SHIPS below]
Battlecruiser............. 8 (Kirov)
Cruisers.................. 6 (Ticonderoga; Slava)
Destroyer................. 4 (Arleigh-Burke; Asagiri; Iroquois; KDX-II; Kara; Luhai; Tourville)

SURFACE COMBATANTS, LIGHT:
Frigate................... 2 (Álvaro de Bazán/"F100"; Brandenburg; Halifax; Godivari; Neustrashimy)
Corvette.................. 1 (Braunschweig; Nanuchka)
Fast Attack Craft........ .5 (Gepard; Rauma; Tarantul; Pegasus)
Mine Warfare............. .5 (Frankenthal; Kulmbach; Pohjanmaa)

SUBMARINE WARFARE VESSELS:
Nuclear Attack............ 4 (Seawolf; Los Angeles; Akula; Han; Astute; Barracuda)
Closed-Cycle SSI.......... 3 (Type-212; Type-214)
Diesel-Electic SSK........ 2 (Victoria; Dolphin; Walrus; Collins; Song)
[SSBNs are currently unavailable]

LOGISTICS & SUPPORT VESSELS:
Command & Control Ship.... 4 (Blue Ridge; Zuiderkruis; Coronado)
Hospital Ship............. 4 (Mercy; Comfort)
Icebreakers............... 4 (Polar; Eisvogel; Svalbard)
Replenishment Ship, Heavy. 4 (Type-702/"Berlin"; Supply; Lewis and Clark; A620/"Jules Verne")
Spy/Surveillance/ELINT.... 3 (Stalwart; Type-423/"Oste"; Primor'ye; A759/Dupuy de Lôme)
Replenishment Ship, Light. 2 (Type-404/"Elbe")
Tankers & Oilers.......... 2 (Henry J. Kaiser; Durance; Type-704A/"Rhon"; Rover)
Sea Tugs/Recovery/Salvage. 2 (Type 720/"Helgoland"; Type 722/"Wangerooge"; Apache; Powhatan; Abeille Flandre)
Logistic Preposition/RO-RO 2 (T-AKR-300/"Bob Hope"; T-AK-3017/"Fred W. Stockham")




POINT MODIFIERS:
Nuclear Powerplant (Available for Cruiser classes and up).. x2 base cost
Hydrofoil (Available only for Fast Attack Craft)........... +.5 per ship
SpecOps Delivery & Support Modification (Submarines only).. +5 per sub
"Stealth" characteristics (Surface Combatants only)........ +2 per ship


BATTLESHIPS:
Battleships are expensive to build, operate, maintain, and sustain. For all the trouble they require, there is little that they can do that cannot be done better by smaller, more agile ships from farther away. A broadside of a dozen 16-inch guns a few miles off the coast that can level a grid square is impressive, but a single GPS-guided cruise missile from a Frigate 100 miles away gets the job done just as well- without the cost, both financial and political.

Basically, Battleships are just big targets that can only reach as far as their guns-- unlike Aircraft Carriers, which can reach many hundreds of miles out. One big battleship can be in one place at one time; for the same cost numerous Destroyers can be in many places at once-- and if a Destroyer sinks, there's more left over. Build Battleships at your own risk.

MUSEUM SHIPS:
Any vessel can be a museum ship. A nation can maintain up to three museum ships (of any types or combinations of types) per country level. However, if those Museum Ships are going to be kept ready for possible action, then you have to add up the points for it like normal, divide by 4, and it is part of your "Semi-Retired Naval Reserve". It takes six months to re-activate.


TRAINING VESSELS:
Training vessels for Naval Academies can be any type. Add up their points and divide by 2, and if it ever goes into combat it becomes a regular combatant and is charged in full.

Sailing-type Tall Ship training vessels are traditionally a luxury of wealthy nations. However, the experience they add, and the sense of cameraderie, are frequently considered worth the expense. 3 Points for a Tall Ship Acadamy Vessel.

I am so taking a sailing ship academy vessel.

I can do without a couple stupid AOEs

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: Light raiding? How light do you want? At best hold the beach for a few hours, until the roving main army comes along.

And if the beach has coastal artillery....

…landing over a beach has always been highly suicidal, been proven over and over again since the US Civil War. Thankfully since the 1950s the option of landing inland with helicopters has been available, which is why a Wasp has that nice big flight deck that can launch 9 big choppers at once. Only follow on forces would come over the beach in a modern invasion, after helicopter borne troops have secured a chunk of shoreline, and they would employ amtracks and hovercraft so that they can cross virtually any piece of shoreline and move inland to unload.

WW2 style beaching landing craft need very specific beach conditions to beach themselves without being destroyed, or grounded far from shore and in general can only land on about 10% of typical coastlines. That makes it much easier for the enemy to defend against them. Since they can only unload right on the beach they also pin you to a fixed point which the enemy can easily target.

If you employ only light forces in an invasion, you gain an advantage to an extent, because light infantry with only light wheeled vehicles can be landed and supplied completely by helicopters. You need never present a fixed target like a beachhead to the enemy until you’ve already captured your objective. That’s good for avoiding the invasion being wiped out by multiple rocket launchers.

Since a few people have decided to post their nation's profiles on their Personal Wiki Pages, i decided that a Wiki article dedicated to the Nations might be apropriate.

Zor

Coyote wrote:How's this for everyone? It is adapted from Beowulf's point system almost exactly:

CARRIERS and CARRIER-HYBRIDS:
Airplane-capable Cruisers.. 10 (Kiev)
VTOL/Helicarriers*......... 9 (Guiseppe Garibaldi; Hyuga; Chakri Naruebet)
Helicopter Cruisers........ 9 (Vittorio Veneto; Andrea Doria; R97/"Jeanne D'Arc")
(*CVS, or Sea Control Ships)

AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULT SHIPS:
Large LHA/LHD............. 8 (Wasp, Tarawa)
Small LHA/LHD............. 6 (Alligator; Dokdo; Ocean; Mistral)

My only complaint here are the costs for the VTOL carriers or helo cruisers seem a bit high. I was assuming something like six points for such ships as they're roughly comparable to a small LHA/LHD in displacement (that, and I've already costed out my navy )

Nuclear Powerplant (Available for Cruiser classes and up).. x2 base cost
Hydrofoil (Available only for Fast Attack Craft)........... +.5 per ship
SpecOps Delivery & Support Modification (Submarines only).. +5 per sub
"Stealth" characteristics (Surface Combatants only)........ +2 per ship

I think I've noted that the nuclear power modifier seems inordinately expensive - 1.5-1.75X might be more realistic here.

Would things go better if we started an AIM chat to discuss setting things up while we wait for Stas to do the map?

SiegeTank wrote:

Czechmate wrote:I think he meant Marine Expeditionary Unit, which is a reinforced battallion.

As I understand it the Wasp can carry 1,871 embarked troops. My marine corps is composed of only roughly 2,500 soldiers. One LHD will do quite nicely for the sort of light raiding I expect to be doing with that ship.

The problem is that for 2,500 combatant personnel you will likely have between 3,000 and 8,000 supporting personnel. A BCT (which is the combat element of a MEU) runs just over 1,000 combatant personnel but still takes most available berthing space on an LHD, LPD, and at least one other landing ship.

Steve wrote:Would things go better if we started an AIM chat to discuss setting things up while we wait for Stas to do the map?

Most likely.