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Jason L. Miles wrote:Exactly where was the ref that would make that look like anything other than bad acting?

He was watching the ball, which was on the other side of the penalty area. Spain actually scored a beautiful goal while this was going on--you can see it in the rest of the clip (very poor marking by Chile), but then the referee came back, saw that Torres was unconscious (or whatever), and about 18 players from various teams came over to yell at him and explain what they thought happened, so finally he cautioned the Chilean, and it was his second yellow of the match, so that was it.

Yep, that was a dive. Funny, I didn't notice that watching it on my T.V. Shame on him, injured knee or not, there was no need for that.

Edit: it doesn't excuse the dive, but I was just watching the replay and I notice Torres was blatantly fouled just a couple minutes before that, but the ref missed it; so it sort of works out. The second goal didn't come as a result of the red card, anyway.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Crown wrote:I'm happy Spain are winning, but I hope that Chile go through, this is a great football match!

EDIT :: Chile are excellent, but in-disciplined! Estrada got hard done by with that send off, but then again he was lucky to not get his second yellow for the tackle against Ineista. So far, if they can take the slightly late tackles out of their game, they would have Spain on the ropes, who for large periods of the first half looked shell shocked that they didn't have possession of the ball.

Fuck Spain.

Fernando Torres, you are a Keita-class pussy.

You can't see it in this video, but that fall severed his brain stem. Fortunately, he was able to heal in about 45 seconds and finish the match.

Don't cry for Torres, though: I'm sure Sanchez the Failer will be by to defend his manliness any second, now.

Were you molested as a child or raped in prison or something? This whole machismo thing seems to be really, really important to you, if you feel you have to take shots at people who kicked your teeth in in another thread.

Master of Ossus wrote:Fuck Spain.

Fernando Torres, you are a Keita-class pussy.

You can't see it in this video, but that fall severed his brain stem. Fortunately, he was able to heal in about 45 seconds and finish the match.

Don't cry for Torres, though: I'm sure Sanchez the Failer will be by to defend his manliness any second, now.

I'm sorry but are you retarded? Torres DID. NOT. DIVE.

My god, the lad get's kicked in the shin by Ponce (a red card incident ala Beckhem on Simeone) he does nothing other than doing up his sock. He then get's barged off the ball in the penalty area (that was not a hip 'n shoulder) he doesn't scream for anything, he just gets on with it. But the horror, HORROR I tells you, when he gets clipped from behind running at full pelt and landing awkwardly he's a villain now?

Get some perspective. Chile were lucky to still have Estrada on (he should have been off 10 mins ago), and were even more lucky for Ponce to stay on after he tried his best to cripple Xabi Alonso.

Crown wrote:I'm sorry but are you retarded? Torres DID. NOT. DIVE.

Erm, are you sure about that? From looking at the play in slow motion in Ossus' clip, it seems doubtful that the Chilean player touched him at all there. If it wasn't a dive, all I can think of is he must have managed to trip over his own bootlace somehow. Whatever. It doesn't matter in the scheme of things; this sort of thing happens all the time and the only ones who know for certain are the players involved.

Modax wrote:

Crown wrote:I'm sorry but are you retarded? Torres DID. NOT. DIVE.

Erm, are you sure about that? From looking at the play in slow motion in Ossus' clip, it seems doubtful that the Chilean player touched him at all there. If it wasn't a dive, all I can think of is he must have managed to trip over his own bootlace somehow. Whatever. It doesn't matter in the scheme of things; this sort of thing happens all the time and the only ones who know for certain are the players involved.

He got clipped. You can see it; Estrada's right knee clips Torres right heel (watch how Estrada's stride shortens and he half stumbles), which makes Torres trip*.

Was it a soft sending off? Absolutely. Was accidental? Absolutely. Did Torres go down with zero contact like Keita for the sole purpose of getting another player sent off? Fuck no.

EDIT :: *Pause the clip at 12s if you want to see it.

Crown is right. He did not dive. Before you judge this scene from a grainy youtube video you should see it from another camera viewpoint and in slowmotion. There is contact, Estrada knee hits Torres right foot so unfortunately that Torres trips over himself as a consequence. Having said that, it wasn't on purpose as Estrada was looking at the ball and he shouldn't receive a yellow card for this incident. Estrada should have been send of on two instances before this scene and the referee knew it, so he send him off on this instance, where he actually didn't deserve it.

Never mind, I see it now.

You can see his left foot stutter in the clip, then - for whatever reason - he does not regain his balance.

It looks really awkward, and if you don't notice the left foot catching on something, then it looks like he threw himself forward. For a minute I was thinking it looked like when a Gridiron QB gets hit in the back.

Jason L. Miles wrote:Never mind, I see it now.

You can see his left foot stutter in the clip, then - for whatever reason - he does not regain his balance.

He's right boot get's whacked and crosses into his left calf just as he starts lifting his left foot. There's no way for him to regain balance, he's going down there. Ergo, not a dive.

Crown wrote:

Jason L. Miles wrote:Never mind, I see it now.

You can see his left foot stutter in the clip, then - for whatever reason - he does not regain his balance.

He's right boot get's whacked and crosses into his left calf just as he starts lifting his left foot. There's no way for him to regain balance, he's going down there. Ergo, not a dive.

I couldn't get the youtube to stop on the relevant frames, so I wasn't sure why.

I was agreeing with you.

Jason L. Miles wrote:I was agreeing with you.

I know, you seemed unsure about what happened is all.

Lusankya wrote:It's worth noting that when they removed offside from hockey, they added a goal circle, and goals can only be scored from within there. Sort of the equivalent of saying that soccer goals could only be scored from within the penalty zone.

Minor quibble, but the goal circle had existed for a long while in field hockey, even before offside disappeared.

Crown wrote:I'm sorry but are you retarded? Torres DID. NOT. DIVE.

Yes. He did. I've seen the replay 8-10 times on my DVR. From the replay angle shown on television, it's unclear if Estrada's knee makes any contact at all with Torres' foot. From this angle, though, despite the low-resolution, it's clear that it doesn't. Moreover, Torres' response to this (e.g., throwing his head back and ultimately laying motionless for 45 seconds while his team scores) is completely inappropriate regardless of whether or not there was contact.

My god, the lad get's kicked in the shin by Ponce (a red card incident ala Beckhem on Simeone) he does nothing other than doing up his sock. He then get's barged off the ball in the penalty area (that was not a hip 'n shoulder) he doesn't scream for anything, he just gets on with it. But the horror, HORROR I tells you, when he gets clipped from behind running at full pelt and landing awkwardly he's a villain now?

He threw his head back, and lay motionless after this for 45 seconds (hence my comments about the fall severing his brain stem or knocking him unconscious). He dove. He may not be a diver, in general, but that was a dive.

Get some perspective. Chile were lucky to still have Estrada on (he should have been off 10 mins ago), and were even more lucky for Ponce to stay on after he tried his best to cripple Xabi Alonso.

True. It's hard to feel sorry for Chile, given that Estrada should have been sent off earlier, but Torres dove.

World Cup: S. Korea vs. Uruguay-- I have to ask, jeezus, how can there be so many Koreans when their guys can't even get it in? That was, what, 6 or 8 good clear line-ups they had for shots that missed?

Korea had a good aggressive offense but they weren't well-coordinated. Still, Uruguay is a tough team and the fact nearly the whole thing was played in their defensive zone meant they had to work for it.

Dang-Korea's out. Hopefully the US will manage to beat Ghana.

Coyote wrote:World Cup: S. Korea vs. Uruguay-- I have to ask, jeezus, how can there be so many Koreans when their guys can't even get it in? That was, what, 6 or 8 good clear line-ups they had for shots that missed?

Korea had a good aggressive offense but they weren't well-coordinated. Still, Uruguay is a tough team and the fact nearly the whole thing was played in their defensive zone meant they had to work for it.

My impression was actually that Uruguay was by far better, but they decided that their first goal (a truly terrible defensive showing by Korea, in which any of four players might've been able to handle it if they had not stopped moving entirely) would hold up. Then, they sort of packed it in to play defensively, while Korea was allowed to play nothing but offense until they finally capitalized on an opportunity and Uruguay realized they had to start playing, again. Good effort by Korea, but the better team won.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Crown wrote:I'm sorry but are you retarded? Torres DID. NOT. DIVE.

Yes. He did. I've seen the replay 8-10 times on my DVR. From the replay angle shown on television, it's unclear if Estrada's knee makes any contact at all with Torres' foot. From this angle, though, despite the low-resolution, it's clear that it doesn't.

You're blind. Estrada makes contact, you can see it at 12s into the clip you posted, moreover you can see Estrada stumble short after his knee sends Torres' right foot into the back of his left calf;

Master of Ossus wrote:Moreover, Torres' response to this (e.g., throwing his head back and ultimately laying motionless for 45 seconds while his team scores) is completely inappropriate regardless of whether or not there was contact.

Fuck you Mr Self Appointed Arbitrator of what is and isn't acceptable. The lad was running full pelt in to the penalty box to get on the end of a possible square ball, he gets clipped has zero fucking chance of not falling, so he goes down and lands awkwardly on a knee that hasn't played 90mins of competitive football since April when he had an op on it.

Master of Ossus wrote:He threw his head back, and lay motionless after this for 45 seconds (hence my comments about the fall severing his brain stem or knocking him unconscious). He dove. He may not be a diver, in general, but that was a dive.

It was not a dive for anyone with eyes, excluding you it seems. Pro tip; look at the gif I just posted with only the legs showing, it's plain as day that contact was made.

Master of Ossus wrote:True. It's hard to feel sorry for Chile, given that Estrada should have been sent off earlier, but Torres dove.

Actually it is easy to feel sorry for Chile, because with the possible exception of Ponce kicking Torres like a mule for no reason, and then trying to detach Xabi's ankle from the rest of his leg, Chile's fouls seem to be more of a product of over exuberance and enthusiasm rather than malicious intent.

Crown, I concede that there was contact, but I still argue that Torres' staying down was what drew the second caution and thus the send-off, and that this was completely unreasonable of him. Just like with Keita, where there was contact but the player's reaction was utterly inappropriate, Torres here was touched but was not injured by what occurred, and his apparent inability to move for 45 seconds is what convinced the official to send off Torres.

Master of Ossus wrote:Crown, I concede that there was contact, but I still argue that Torres' staying down was what drew the second caution and thus the send-off, and that this was completely unreasonable of him. Just like with Keita, where there was contact but the player's reaction was utterly inappropriate, Torres here was touched but was not injured by what occurred, and his apparent inability to move for 45 seconds is what convinced the official to send off Torres.

Bzzzt! Completely wrong. It was the ref who got Estrada sent off, not Torres (who you have no way of knowing what he was feeling) not even Pique who ran 60 yards waving an imaginary card (which is cuntish thing to do on most - but not all - occasions). The ref who had a split second to make a decision, me, you, the entire watching world will agree that it was accidental and if looking at that decision in isolation which every decision should be looked at, it was a soft foul and a harsh sending off.

But, why is this Torres' fault? Let us play an imaginary game of what I like to call; what if? What if Torres did 'fake' the extent of the pain he felt. Further, what if the contact was not imaginary. Then, wouldn't Estrada be committing an unsportsmanlike foul, with the intent to stop - quite arguably - the worlds finest centre forward from getting into the Chile penalty box for the the eventual square ball that was about to be played.

The by the rules of this sport, is that not a yellow card offense? Why yes it is.

Estrada got hard done by, no doubt, but with the amount of fouls Chile were on already (and he was on a few of them), it's not at all beyond the realm of reason to suggest that that's exactly what the ref though when he showed the second yellow when he only had a moment to decide.

You on the other hand, had 20 odd hours, a YouTube clip and DVD R and still got it wrong, how about that for a comeuppance eh?

Crown wrote:But, why is this Torres' fault? Let us play an imaginary game of what I like to call; what if? What if Torres did 'fake' the extent of the pain he felt. Further, what if the contact was not imaginary. Then, wouldn't Estrada be committing an unsportsmanlike foul, with the intent to stop - quite arguably - the worlds finest centre forward from getting into the Chile penalty box for the the eventual square ball that was about to be played.

The by the rules of this sport, is that not a yellow card offense? Why yes it is.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Had Estrada actually hit Torres, here (e.g., by tripping him or elbowing him or otherwise playing him when the ball was absent), then it would almost certainly have been a reckless challenge at least and would have deserved a booking. As it was, Torres' response was the unsportsmanlike aspect of the play, and deserved a caution.

Estrada got hard done by, no doubt, but with the amount of fouls Chile were on already (and he was on a few of them), it's not at all beyond the realm of reason to suggest that that's exactly what the ref though when he showed the second yellow when he only had a moment to decide.

You on the other hand, had 20 odd hours, a YouTube clip and DVD R and still got it wrong, how about that for a comeuppance eh?

Touche, but I honestly can't see why you're defending Torres, here. Do you actually think he was knocked unconscious for 30 seconds? Do you actually think that he was so hurt by what occurred that he was unable to regain his feet for a minute? If not, then he was the player who deserved a caution for unsporting behavior, here, and his play-acting was doubtless intended to influence the officials' decision.

Coyote wrote:World Cup: S. Korea vs. Uruguay-- I have to ask, jeezus, how can there be so many Koreans when their guys can't even get it in? That was, what, 6 or 8 good clear line-ups they had for shots that missed?

Korea had a good aggressive offense but they weren't well-coordinated. Still, Uruguay is a tough team and the fact nearly the whole thing was played in their defensive zone meant they had to work for it.

While I want Spain to win - simply because they play the best type of one touch crisp clean passing type of football (but not so much in this tournament yet) - I would love to see Uruguay lift the world cup in colour!

Master of Ossus wrote:My impression was actually that Uruguay was by far better, but they decided that their first goal (a truly terrible defensive showing by Korea, in which any of four players might've been able to handle it if they had not stopped moving entirely) would hold up. Then, they sort of packed it in to play defensively, while Korea was allowed to play nothing but offense until they finally capitalized on an opportunity and Uruguay realized they had to start playing, again. Good effort by Korea, but the better team won.

Yeah, Uruguay was definitely the favorite, and for good reason. The Koreans were aggressive enough, but uncoordinated. That and they kept going for crazy money shots (long distance and overhead stuff) as a matter of regular strategy. Some of those dice-rolling shots I could see in the last 40 seconds of a game, but they're not something to rely on. All they really had going for them was aggro spirit and good possession.... at least in the second half.

Oh, well. US v. Ghana in a few minutes!

Master of Ossus wrote:I don't understand what you're saying here. Had Estrada actually hit Torres, here (e.g., by tripping him or elbowing him or otherwise playing him when the ball was absent), then it would almost certainly have been a reckless challenge at least and would have deserved a booking.

Two reasons;

1. To demonstrate what might have occurred to the match official when he issued the second yellow, thus somehow explaining his harsh decision.
2. To say this; Torres is quite literally one of the most gifted centre forwards in the world but even he doesn't have eyes at the back of his head! He doesn't know why he was tripped, only that he was.

Master of Ossus wrote:As it was, Torres' response was the unsportsmanlike aspect of the play, and deserved a caution.

Why was it unsportsmanlike? We have already established that it wasn't a dive. Unless you can diagnose what injuries or pain Torres may or may not have been feeling from your arm chair (a good trick since you couldn't even tell he was clipped to begin with), your opinion is speculative and worthless.

Master of Ossus wrote:Touche, but I honestly can't see why you're defending Torres, here.

I defend Torres because he's played with pain killer injections in his ankle end of 08/09 season. I defend Torres because despite being kicked from pillar to post by the yard dogs that play in England (Reading I'm looking at you) he doesn't do a Dropba Dogba. I defend Torres because despite having his shirt ripped by the centre backs of Aston Villa who were hanging onto him for dear life (no penalty given), or getting his eye cut open by the Stoke centre backs, he stays down a moment or two and then gets on with it. I defend him because despite tearing a knee ligament, he plays out the remainder of the 90 mins, bagging the two goals for Liverpool that put us into the semi final of the only cup we had a chance of winning in the 09/10 season.

But all that is immaterial. In this instance I defend him because he didn't do anything wrong.

Master of Ossus wrote:Do you actually think he was knocked unconscious for 30 seconds?

There you go again, diagnosing.

Master of Ossus wrote:Do you actually think that he was so hurt by what occurred that he was unable to regain his feet for a minute?

I've seen an adult stumble in front of me on their way to work, I've seen them take a while to get up. Who am I to judge how long it takes someone to get up after being tripped while running and landing on a knee that has just had an operation?

By the way, Del Bosque has confirmed that Torres picked up a muscle strain during the game which is why he was subed off (The Beeb).

Master of Ossus wrote:If not, then he was the player who deserved a caution for unsporting behavior, here, and his play-acting was doubtless intended to influence the officials' decision.

No. He. Does. NOT. Jesus fucking Christ on a pogo-stick; he did not dive, he was brought down. The most you could do him for is time wasting, learn the rules of the game and stop creating your own.

Any USA vs Ghana; I don't know who to hate here. One team has a Bitter and a rent-a-Bitter (USA) the other has a Rent boy (not playing) and a Skate ... decisions, decisions ...

Fucking hell! The Skate just scored!