STGOD 4 OOC Thread (part 2)

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-08-17 12:46am

Alyrium, let's continue the whole Talys situation. You haven't responded to my latest post. This isn't an open-shut case. You arrested the guy before he had the opportunity to do anything illegal, so I want to see this trial through and get him off. You should let him go, or, if you think there is enough evidence to get him executed, bring him to court.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-08-17 12:49am

Sweet shit, Spyder. Nice to meet a player who doesn't half-ass it

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2004-08-17 01:39am

Thank you.

This is starting to shape up nicely.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-08-17 01:41am

The sad thing is, 'tis the sideshow. This is just keeping me amused while the Big One brews.

All this toying about with assassins and spies is pretty much just filler. Soon enough, the guns will start to sound.

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2004-08-17 01:54am

It's a good opportunity for stage setting though.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-08-17 01:56am

Heh heh. The stage's been set, good sir. We're in the off-broadway theater running "One Minute Shakespeare" while the Valkyrie puts of her bronze brassiere and funny hat for "Ring of the Nibelungen" at the Opera House.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-08-17 02:39am

Straha wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:out of a military core of over 10 billion people,
Wait a second... you're talking about a whole friggin planet worth of soldiers. With the U.S. ratio (1 Million fighting men/women to 300 million people) to armed forces 100 Billion people (~top pop of any nation in the STGOD, a lot larger then you) there would be ~33 million people total in your armed forces. Some nations would have larger ones (Hajr) some would have smaller ones (Gladshiemm,) and the proportional deployment of troops for most nations (some exceptions, like Monacora) would heavilly favor the Navy with their numbers.

Or to put it bluntly, THAT'S WAY TO FRIGGIN LARGE FOR A NATION'S ARMED FORCES! (Especially for a supposedly 'libertarian' nations Armed forces.)

He wrote 10 billion? what? He did write 10 billion! I read that as million the first time through. Ain't gonna happen in this game. That's at least 2 orders of magnitude too high for this game.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-08-17 03:09am

Beowulf wrote:
Straha wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:out of a military core of over 10 billion people,
Wait a second... you're talking about a whole friggin planet worth of soldiers. With the U.S. ratio (1 Million fighting men/women to 300 million people) to armed forces 100 Billion people (~top pop of any nation in the STGOD, a lot larger then you) there would be ~33 million people total in your armed forces. Some nations would have larger ones (Hajr) some would have smaller ones (Gladshiemm,) and the proportional deployment of troops for most nations (some exceptions, like Monacora) would heavilly favor the Navy with their numbers.

Or to put it bluntly, THAT'S WAY TO FRIGGIN LARGE FOR A NATION'S ARMED FORCES! (Especially for a supposedly 'libertarian' nations Armed forces.)
He wrote 10 billion? what? He did write 10 billion! I read that as million the first time through. Ain't gonna happen in this game. That's at least 2 orders of magnitude too high for this game.

Bullshit it is. Core worlds I expect to have between 12-20 billion, not enough to completely overrun the world, but plenty of megacities. The population is rather patriotic, and the culture revolves around freedom and defending said freedoms. I estimated roughly 5% of the population would be in the military in one form or another(Army, Navy, Marines, Air force, Space navy, part time reserves)

Libertarian does not mean Liberal. We maintain a sizeable military budget because the military is one of the express purposes of government.

beowulf, you do realize that two orders of magnitude would place the number at 100 million, which is frankly a little low for a space fairing nation with control over 10-15 major worlds and colonies

Now, the numbers arent set in stone. It was just an estimate that I thought would be, you know, reasonable.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-08-17 03:12am

Bugsby wrote:Alyrium, let's continue the whole Talys situation. You haven't responded to my latest post. This isn't an open-shut case. You arrested the guy before he had the opportunity to do anything illegal, so I want to see this trial through and get him off. You should let him go, or, if you think there is enough evidence to get him executed, bring him to court.

I can get the bail hearing done early tomorrow

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-08-17 03:52am

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Bugsby wrote:Alyrium, let's continue the whole Talys situation. You haven't responded to my latest post. This isn't an open-shut case. You arrested the guy before he had the opportunity to do anything illegal, so I want to see this trial through and get him off. You should let him go, or, if you think there is enough evidence to get him executed, bring him to court.
I can get the bail hearing done early tomorrow

Most satisfactory.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-08-17 10:17am

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Bullshit it is. Core worlds I expect to have between 12-20 billion, not enough to completely overrun the world, but plenty of megacities. The population is rather patriotic, and the culture revolves around freedom and defending said freedoms. I estimated roughly 5% of the population would be in the military in one form or another(Army, Navy, Marines, Air force, Space navy, part time reserves)

Libertarian does not mean Liberal. We maintain a sizeable military budget because the military is one of the express purposes of government.

beowulf, you do realize that two orders of magnitude would place the number at 100 million, which is frankly a little low for a space fairing nation with control over 10-15 major worlds and colonies

Now, the numbers arent set in stone. It was just an estimate that I thought would be, you know, reasonable.

5% military is very close to being unsustainable, because of the simple fact that the othe 95% has to sustain them completely. I do realize that my estimate is 100 million, but then again, Straha had it estimated at 33 million for a good maximum. Do also note that a modern military has a rather extensive tail. You'd be lucky if 10% of your military actually fights. I'm fairly certain you could completely man a space navy's ships with less than a million men.

Admittedly, a good sized reserve force would be feasible, if they aren't very mobile. A reserve force would take time to mobilize, so aren't going to be as effect as a regular unit.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-08-17 11:09am

I figure the Hajr's total number of invasion troops is around 16 million (4 million per War Cluster,) with maybe twice that number of reserve soldiers on rear-area duty protecting my Clusters and conquered worlds. Total military personelle numbers are probably in the billions, but that's because almost every Ouster in Known Space right now is a Hajr member, from the Speaker to the waste recycling technicians.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-08-17 11:33am

If we'd go by this 1 for every 300 million people military percentage I'd have over 1,16 billion people in my armed forces. Which might just be a wee b it too large.
The ships are of course highly automated, and thusly not heavily manned.
As I don't have a need for a full-blown ground army (without any ground to fight on...) the army consists of glorified marines (though quite competant), I'd be hard pressed to get that many people reasonably into the military.

And should someone be stupid enough to try to invade, there are other methods to instantly raise the numbers of willing soldiers...

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2004-08-17 11:40am

Dahak wrote:And should someone be stupid enough to try to invade, there are other methods to instantly raise the numbers of willing soldiers...

Patriotism circuts *on*

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2004-08-17 11:47am

Don't Libertarians believe in peace and non-intervention, or some crap like that?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-08-17 12:04pm

Straha wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:out of a military core of over 10 billion people,
Wait a second... you're talking about a whole friggin planet worth of soldiers. With the U.S. ratio (1 Million fighting men/women to 300 million people) to armed forces 100 Billion people (~top pop of any nation in the STGOD, a lot larger then you) there would be ~33 million people total in your armed forces. Some nations would have larger ones (Hajr) some would have smaller ones (Gladshiemm,) and the proportional deployment of troops for most nations (some exceptions, like Monacora) would heavilly favor the Navy with their numbers.

Or to put it bluntly, THAT'S WAY TO FRIGGIN LARGE FOR A NATION'S ARMED FORCES! (Especially for a supposedly 'libertarian' nations Armed forces.)

Erm... The Army of the Republic is 8 billion men by itself (including reserve formations and noncombat personnel), and has been posted as such in my OOB for quite some time. 100,000,000,000 people on 17 worlds (for me, not Alyrium; I don't know what his population is) puts that only a little higher than the U.S. proportion of military to civilian unless my numbers were way off. And I think my statement that this is smaller than your average military for similarly sized nations would be accurate, given that in the current galactic state of affairs, it would be more likely for most nations to have a military at Cold War or maybe even World War 2 ratios rather than a ratio like the current U.S. military.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-08-17 12:08pm

If we'd go by this 1 for every 300 million people military percentage I'd have over 1,16 billion people in my armed forces. Which might just be a wee b it too large.

By the ratio of 1 per 300 million, the U.S. would currently have approximately one soldier.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-08-17 12:08pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote: Core worlds I expect to have between 12-20 billion, not enough to completely overrun the world, but plenty of megacities.

Yes, but with the example of all the first world Nations in population DECLINE right now I'd expect no more then 10 billion people on any planet, tops (taking into account extended life,) because people just will not have kids.

The population is rather patriotic, and the culture revolves around freedom and defending said freedoms. I estimated roughly 5% of the population would be in the military in one form or another(Army, Navy, Marines, Air force, Space navy, part time reserves)

Our population in the United States is relativley patriotic, and we've got the biggest military of all the non-communist governments, yet we have a 000.4% enlistment rate (One million divided by two hundred and fifty mil, thought I'd throw a small bone to the Aly.) So why in all the fucking hells should your nation have something ten times that size?

Libertarian does not mean Liberal. We maintain a sizeable military budget because the military is one of the express purposes of government.

No, but Libertarian means you cut the budget wherever possible, and you only leave enough for whatever section of government to do it efficently and well, not so that you have the biggest best and brightest military of all (unless of course you're Libertarian in some ways, but not in others.) It also means that your citizens embrace, love, and cherish freedom, something the military doesn't exactly let them do.

Now, the numbers arent set in stone. It was just an estimate that I thought would be, you know, reasonable.

Well they're not. Deal with it.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-08-17 12:11pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
If we'd go by this 1 for every 300 million people military percentage I'd have over 1,16 billion people in my armed forces. Which might just be a wee b it too large.
By the ratio of 1 per 300 million, the U.S. would currently have approximately one soldier.

The million was implied for the 1, as well.
Or: (1/300) million

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-08-17 12:15pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
Straha wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:out of a military core of over 10 billion people,
Wait a second... you're talking about a whole friggin planet worth of soldiers. With the U.S. ratio (1 Million fighting men/women to 300 million people) to armed forces 100 Billion people (~top pop of any nation in the STGOD, a lot larger then you) there would be ~33 million people total in your armed forces. Some nations would have larger ones (Hajr) some would have smaller ones (Gladshiemm,) and the proportional deployment of troops for most nations (some exceptions, like Monacora) would heavilly favor the Navy with their numbers.

Or to put it bluntly, THAT'S WAY TO FRIGGIN LARGE FOR A NATION'S ARMED FORCES! (Especially for a supposedly 'libertarian' nations Armed forces.)
Erm... The Army of the Republic is 8 billion men by itself (including reserve formations and noncombat personnel), and has been posted as such in my OOB for quite some time. 100,000,000,000 people on 17 worlds (for me, not Alyrium; I don't know what his population is) puts that only a little higher than the U.S. proportion of military to civilian unless my numbers were way off. And I think my statement that this is smaller than your average military for similarly sized nations would be accurate, given that in the current galactic state of affairs, it would be more likely for most nations to have a military at Cold War or maybe even World War 2 ratios rather than a ratio like the current U.S. military.

They are. 1 million soldiers per every 300 million people in the population center would give you 333,333,333.3 soldiers (really sucks to be a third of a guy don't it.) What you have there is ~10% of your population being in one branch of the military alone. Further more for a long period of time during the cold war we had no large active military, and worked on a draft system (Just look at Vietnam,) and you can't really sustain the military outputs of WWII without blowing your Economy to shit. These militaries are way too large, and it's good that we caught this now, before we actually had some real inter planetary fighting.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-08-17 12:15pm

Our population in the United States is relativley patriotic, and we've got the biggest military of all the non-communist governments, yet we have a 000.4% enlistment rate (One million divided by two hundred and fifty mil, thought I'd throw a small bone to the Aly.)

Bleh. It seems my calculations were indeed off. Still, that puts me somewhere around 40,000,000... *Goes to recalculate.*

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-08-17 12:18pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
Our population in the United States is relativley patriotic, and we've got the biggest military of all the non-communist governments, yet we have a 000.4% enlistment rate (One million divided by two hundred and fifty mil, thought I'd throw a small bone to the Aly.)
Bleh. It seems my calculations were indeed off. Still, that puts me somewhere around 40,000,000... *Goes to recalculate.*

Check post above.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-08-17 12:22pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Erm... The Army of the Republic is 8 billion men by itself (including reserve formations and noncombat personnel), and has been posted as such in my OOB for quite some time. 100,000,000,000 people on 17 worlds (for me, not Alyrium; I don't know what his population is) puts that only a little higher than the U.S. proportion of military to civilian unless my numbers were way off. And I think my statement that this is smaller than your average military for similarly sized nations would be accurate, given that in the current galactic state of affairs, it would be more likely for most nations to have a military at Cold War or maybe even World War 2 ratios rather than a ratio like the current U.S. military.

That's a lot higher than the current US miltary. A similar ratio would be about 300 million in your military. It's .3% not 8%. Do note that that .3% of the population uses 3% of the GDP. Quite frankly, the trend is for more capable systems, but a smaller military because those systems are more costly. The vast majority of the 8 billion man army would have to be made up of light infantry if you seriously want to maintain it.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-08-17 12:26pm

I don't want to maintain it. I simply made a mathematical error, likely due to working on my OOB late at night. I'll change it as soon as I get my home computer on an Internet connection again.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-08-17 12:26pm

If your army is actuslly 8 billion men, I'll take your OOB for completely serious and actually treat your army's basic battle rifle as a 7.62 chemical projectile weapon- i.e, pretty much no good against the defenses of the comparatively extremely well equipped and trained 16-million man Hajr ground army.

40 million sounds about right, including reserves. The Hajr army weighs in at 48 million (16 million front line troops, 32 million reserves and occupation troops.)