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Something funny: Almost every power has spent significant points on Internal Security. This is funny, because NO power has spent points on buffing up their foreign intelligence service

InnocentBystander wrote:

SirNitram wrote:As I already said: No tech points spent on defense or offense. It makes the Mod's head hurt. This includes shields for the obvious reason that shields keep you from dying.

Okay, but doesn't it work the same way for say FTL speed, anti-interdiction, etc. As seen in your OOB? ( I picked shields, as in defense, just for the hell of it). Or am I not fully understanding technology?

Yes, for those things I'll allow, it works like described(+10 spent to tech is like +1 for specialization for all ships). It's not quite a perfect match, but.

Thirdfain wrote:Something funny: Almost every power has spent significant points on Internal Security. This is funny, because NO power has spent points on buffing up their foreign intelligence service

I ain't complaining; it means less irritating 'My super spies decapitate Empire X!' claims which I have to then explain that espionage doesn't DO that.

SirNitram wrote:A 'fighter' would be something launched from a carrier; I know at least one power was -planning- carriers. Don't know if those made it all the way. If not, we can mod it to 'point defense'. +10 against cap or fighter is basically that the ship is lopsided; it's better trained against one or the other. Generally, if you had two 10 point capital ships slugging it out, and one was straight 10 pts, and the other was 8 + 2 anti-cap, the anti-cap will win. But have a nasty time against a carrier.

For what it's worth, the Gungnir class of ship from my faction is a carrier ship, berthing 10,000 drone Crow parasite fighters. However, I deliberately didn't spend the points on specialization for this ship, as that was contrary to it's purpose.

Thirdfain wrote:Something funny: Almost every power has spent significant points on Internal Security. This is funny, because NO power has spent points on buffing up their foreign intelligence service

It is rather amusing that some powers have spent 50+ points on internal security as they are supposed to be autocratic or even police states, yet these paranoid groups are apparently far more worried about their own people than outsiders.

Academia Nut wrote: It is rather amusing that some powers have spent 50+ points on internal security as they are supposed to be autocratic or even police states, yet these paranoid groups are apparently far more worried about their own people than outsiders.

I'm pretty confident that my points will be just as effective against enemy agents as they will be against Hungarian nationalists

SirNitram wrote:

Academia Nut wrote:I believe White Haven's Gag Order class ships would beg to differ with you there Nitram, what with their 30 points of specialization in EW. And on that note, are you treating EW and ECM differently in this game?

I saw others doing it differently, and went with the flow. If there's dissent, I can order it being streamlined together.

Consider there to be dissent. ECM is one type of EW, along with regular sensors, and ECCM.

I'm with Beo. ECM, ECCM, and improved sensors should all fall under the general shroud of EW.

I was also wondering, how much would large-scale instantaneous transporation cost in tech points? Say ship-sized transportation?

Alright, collapse all ship-based electronic war into EW, guys.

And ship-teleporters? Infinity points. Denied.

I have updated the summary again. Trying to parse Redleader's ship descriptions gave me a headache. I have attempted to sanitise them.

Academia Nut wrote:It is rather amusing that some powers have spent 50+ points on internal security as they are supposed to be autocratic or even police states, yet these paranoid groups are apparently far more worried about their own people than outsiders.

It is interesting that lots of people have excellent internal security but no-one seems to have a strong offensive intelligence service.

EDIT: Gah, didn't spot Thirdfain's post. Note though Thirdfain that I have spent 10 points on improved offensive intelligence - and this seems to be enough to put me in the lead.

And yet another me too with Beo. Got my OOB up, no fluff as of yet, Just wanted the gritty numbers out of the way first before I get to the fun part.

Yeah, if more people could have point summaries, that would be fantastic.

Well I'd like to register my interest in this also. I have not got as far as a OOB or anything yet, I'm mostly just trying to get a draft for what sort civilization I've created. Some flat out stealing from Greg Egan's Diaspora, with a splash of Cylon, and a dash of culture.

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The Nephilim are a collection of supercomputers that house billions of intelligent software entities. While the oldest Nephilim claim to be direct copies of biological lifeforms, new minds are created by merging a copy of two existing minds, and the addition of countless random mutations.

First Contact

The Nephilim were traditionally an introverted race, while many citizens embarked on scientific or exploratory missions in the physical world the Nephilim made no attempt to contact other intelligent lifeforms. It wasn't until the discovery of a promising young culture on a neighbouring star system by Holybe, a citizen less than 2 Gigatau old, that the Nephilim took an interest in other species. Holybe's imagination was captured by the Aora, and his passion soon infected the rest of the Nephilim. Much effort was spent on documenting the Aora and their culture, first contact was made shortly after.

Gleisner's Vase

Aora culture and art became very popular among the Nephilim. Art was scanned and it's digital information was sent back for citizens to enjoy. For one citizen, Gleisner, Aora art became an obsession. There was one piece in particular; a vase, the first piece of art that was scanned. Gleisner had a copy; every citizen had a copy of the vase, but for Gleisner this wasn't enough. He transferred himself to an exploratory ship and headed to the Aora home world to retrieve the original vase. The Aora were amused by his interest in what was a rather poor example of an artists otherwise exceptional work, and loaded the vase into his cargo hold.

Upon his return Gleisner found that observing the Vase with optics was unsatisfying; he wanted to touch it. It was Gleisner who constructed the first “Avatar”, a remotely controlled robot. Several of Gleisner's contemporary's, who refused to be outdone, set about on similar projects themselves.

While this interest has permeated all Nephilim society on some level, some have taken it further. “Shells” were soon developed, a robotic body that contained the computing power to run a citizen locally. Gleisner's started a new cultural movement that places great importance to the act of interacting physically, they are referred to as Gleisners.

The Fate of the Aora

The Nephilim have not been forthcoming with information about what happened to the Aora, but what is known is thus:

The Aora world was attacked by another civilization, perhaps a pirate fleet. The Aora had no space fleet to speak of, only a simple missile defence system. Caught by suprise, the hostile fleet retreated out of effective missile range and proceeded with a systematic bombardment over the coarse of several days. Many of the Nephilim felt that to assist the Aora would lead them too far into the realm of the physical. The younger Nephilim, who were most involved with the Aora, and the eldest Nephilim, who could still remember their (presumably) biological roots demanded intervention. The Nephilim debated for 1 week (11.4 realtime minutes). They spent a subjective year (10 realtime hours) designing simplest weapon system they could. The jury-rigged these weapons onto the few ships they had and sent them immediately towards the Aora home world. The ships they sent were defeated, and the Aora were enslaved or wiped out. For the first time in their history the Nephilim found themselves powerless.

The Oraphim

The Oraphim began an immediate process of militarisation, and began exploring nearby systems; they did not intend another species meet the fate of the Aora. In their search many forms of life were found, but only one was intelligent.

More advanced than the Aora were, but considerably less advanced than themselves, these humanoids had colonized the moons surrounding their planet and were exploring the reaches of their solar system at slower-than light speeds. They had no name for themselves: they Nephilim named them the Oraphim.

The Oraphim were no less fascinated with the Nephilim than the Nephilim were with them. Despite the changes in Nephilim culture the Oraphims inability to interact with the virtual world places a huge divide between them. Nephilim/Oraphim friendships are extremely rare and difficult.

The Nephilim manufacture FTL drives for the Oraphim, and give them technological assistance. Devlopment can only proceed so fast, and the Oraphim and lag behind technologically by almost an order of magnitude. The Oraphim space fleet has demanded to be involved in military maneuvers, regardless of Nephilim's best efforts to convince them otherwise. While the Nephilim view the Oraphim as under their care, they are officially treated as allies.

Military

The Nephilim military is completely volunteer based. Any citizen joining the military has regular backups created (termed snapshots). Snapshots are created before joining any military battle.

Space Force

Most military ships are controlled by a single citizen. While such ships have the processing capacity to run at speeds greater than standard tau, almost all citizens stay on standard time, and most of the basic tasks are delegated to non-concious software that mediates between the ship and the citizen. A citizen is no more aware of the minutiae of the ship than an organic lifeform is aware of the activities of his own body.

Notes:

Tau: a unit of internal time. The equivalent in realtime initially declined as hardware improved, but has stabilised as technology hit fundamental physical constraints. Subjective time varies depending on the architecture of a citizen's mind. Rough equivalents:

Internal Time----Subjective Time-----Realtime
1 tau-------------1 second--------------1 millisecond
1 kilotau---------15 minutes------------1 second
1 megatau-------10 days----------------16 min 40 sec
1 gigatau---------27 years---------------11 days 14 hours

Avatar: A robotic body that is controlled remotely by a citizen

Shell: A robotic body that is controlled locally by a citizen


For discussion

I'm not quite sure how to handle the possibility that 27 years of research could be carried out in 11 days. I would propose that the effective points value of their ships be doubled to reflect advanced technology and considerable tactical ability offered by 1000x thought speed. Since then their rate of research has been retarded by material and physical restraints to a level comparable with the rest of the galaxy. This would rate a battleship at 60 points, which is hopefully acceptable.

Question regarding FTL communications, as I've seen some spending points on it - what is the 0 point standard for FTL communications right now? Are we capable of real-time communications with distant ships, and monitoring distant fleet movements real-time, or is it more limited?

rhoenix wrote:Question regarding FTL communications, as I've seen some spending points on it - what is the 0 point standard for FTL communications right now? Are we capable of real-time communications with distant ships, and monitoring distant fleet movements real-time, or is it more limited?

Couple of hours between distant points, with realtime being largely in-system.

Acidburns: I like your nation idea, but there's no effective doubling of anything. If you want to have really badass high-tech ships, spend 60 points on each one you can explain it as "super speed thought process high tech" or "Highly trained monkey-gunners who never miss," it doesn't matter.

SirNitram wrote:Couple of hours between distant points, with realtime being largely in-system.

Aha - thank you.

EDIT: I've also edited my OOB with a few minor changes - after looking through my OOB again when I wasn't tired, I discovered that I'd spent only 1390 points before. I've edited my numbers and fleet totals, and placed a point total at the bottom of my OOB.

SirNitram wrote:

InnocentBystander wrote:

SirNitram wrote:As I already said: No tech points spent on defense or offense. It makes the Mod's head hurt. This includes shields for the obvious reason that shields keep you from dying.

Okay, but doesn't it work the same way for say FTL speed, anti-interdiction, etc. As seen in your OOB? ( I picked shields, as in defense, just for the hell of it). Or am I not fully understanding technology?

Yes, for those things I'll allow, it works like described(+10 spent to tech is like +1 for specialization for all ships). It's not quite a perfect match, but.

So all of your ships can defeat interdiction < 5?

InnocentBystander wrote:

SirNitram wrote:

InnocentBystander wrote: Okay, but doesn't it work the same way for say FTL speed, anti-interdiction, etc. As seen in your OOB? ( I picked shields, as in defense, just for the hell of it). Or am I not fully understanding technology?

Yes, for those things I'll allow, it works like described(+10 spent to tech is like +1 for specialization for all ships). It's not quite a perfect match, but.

So all of your ships can defeat interdiction < 5?

And can escape heavier interdiction with enough time. Of course, this assumes we don't say 'For Ares!' and rip your entrails out.

Wait- so why would anyone want to commit points to individual ships, when those same points, put into national advantages, confer a much larger point bonus in total?

For instance, if I had 10 points it would be a waste to spend 1 each on 10 ships to make those ten ships better at avoiding interdiction, when I could just spend those 10 points into a racial advantage? The same goes for EW. Did I waste the points I spent on EW ships?

Thirdfain wrote:Wait- so why would anyone want to commit points to individual ships, when those same points, put into national advantages, confer a much larger point bonus in total?

For instance, if I had 10 points it would be a waste to spend 1 each on 10 ships to make those ten ships better at avoiding interdiction, when I could just spend those 10 points into a racial advantage? The same goes for EW. Did I waste the points I spent on EW ships?

Well... I suppose if you have 10 or less of a given class, it's more advantageous to pay the points on the ship. I wonder if it's possible to get a racial interdiction of 10 points...

No, apparantly Racial Advantage points in interdiction avoidance apply to ALL ships of the fleet, not just of one class.

Thirdfain wrote:For instance, if I had 10 points it would be a waste to spend 1 each on 10 ships to make those ten ships better at avoiding interdiction, when I could just spend those 10 points into a racial advantage? The same goes for EW. Did I waste the points I spent on EW ships?

Ditto, if this isn't fixed ASAP I and probably lots of other people will shift a whole load of points to tech. Which sucks, because dealing with long lists of tech advantages on top of ship specialisations is much harder work than just the latter.

Points should be spent on ships or tangible stuff. Meaning, if you have 10 points to spare you could buy a cruiser, some spies, internal security, a giant bomb, whatever else comes to mind. Buying a magical trait that suddenly makes every ship better is silly, unbalanced, and too dammed complicated. The only general improvement that you could spend points on would probably be the planet-side forces.

Thirdfain wrote:No, apparantly Racial Advantage points in interdiction avoidance apply to ALL ships of the fleet, not just of one class.

Right, but it's not necessarily useful for all ships of the fleet. Still, having every ship being an interdictor would be handy.