Avatar review thread

[Sarevok]

The Colonels plan was a good one. He was forcing the Naavi to all show up in a nice set piece battle where RDAs powered battle armor and gunships would have a field day killing the Naavi warriors. The gunships floundered a bit first but once they recovered they were killing the Naavi by the dozens. The powered armor and infantry did far better. Not a single naavi reached their positions. Had the planetmind not awakened the Naavi would have been completely crushed that day. The colonels main fault was not taking the suggestion the planet was sentient seriously and preparing for that.

[Serafina]

Actually, why did he not use the capability of the shuttle to go into orbit?

Fly reaaaaly high, testdrop a package of bombs, adjust, drop another one - boom!

(Yes, of course, thats not dramatic - tough you could have a neat chase-szene while the shutle ascends or something like that - but perhaps there is a good reason.)

[Zor]

Actually, why did he not use the capability of the shuttle to go into orbit?

Fly reaaaaly high, testdrop a package of bombs, adjust, drop another one - boom!

Probably because there was stuff floating overhead of the tree itself.

Zor

[PeZook]

Fly reaaaaly high, testdrop a package of bombs, adjust, drop another one - boom!

Again, it's not easy to bomb point targets from orbit. Or even from pretty low height like a kilometer.

From orbit, you can blow up a continent easily enough, striking a precision target is something which requires billion-dollar electronic suites and ordnance machined to ridiculously tight tolerances. Probably made specifically for the Pandoran atmosphere, too, if it has different aerodynamic properties from Earth. Or even something as simple as different ablation scenarios during re-entry.

Bombing from a couple kilometers up requires merely dedicated bombing suites coupled with terrain-imaging radars with the right software. And ordnance that has actually predictable aerodynamics, too. And someone who is, you know, trained in bombing shit.

This is ignoring the difficult terrain which forced the slow bombing run in the first place.

The Colonels plan was a good one. He was forcing the Naavi to all show up in a nice set piece battle where RDAs powered battle armor and gunships would have a field day killing the Naavi warriors.

Oh, yeah. Let's all go into terrain that's completely unknown to us yet perfectly natural for the enemy (and one that denies us use of some of our main advantages, too!), using the entirety of our (not easily replaceable) forces against an opponent we know next to nothing about, yet who knows everything there is to know about us! Also, our mission is to blow up an important religious site in a hope the enemy will just keel over and weep, and stop bothering us! What could possibly go wrong?

[Shroom Man 777]

This is because conventional combat and conventional bombing has done so wonderfully to stop resistance movements and insurgent groups throughout the history of modern 20th century warfare from Vietnam to Afghanistan to Afghanistan again and Iraq, am i rite?

[Serafina]

Well, they would not need to go into orbit, but yes - it is propably really hard to do a precise drop with those improvised charges, especially if they do not have a bombin system and are just hauling it out off the ramp.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Bear hunters don't hunt with .22 long rifles or even .30 caliber weapons.

Have you ever been bear hunting? We even hunt the fuckers with a bow and arrow and the .308 Winchester is a popular round for anything smaller than a rhino.

[SylasGaunt]

Sorry, but if he just blew up the tree and went home, all it would do would piss the natives off. They needed to kill as many of their warriors (and civilians, too, but there's probably not much of a distinction) as possible, otherwise the natives would just want revenge.

Except that they make it abundantly clear in the movie that this isn't case. In fact I believe it's specifically stated that taking out the tree would have destroyed the Na'vi as a people.

You said the Dragon could do it just fine, so why use daisy cutters or nukes? The only explanation is that the gunships and ground troops wouldn't be able to hunt down and kill off the Na'Vi before they all scattered throughout the woods using the sensor-blind area as cover.

The point was a shock and awe attack. A single strike that would obliterate the tree and anything around it with a level of firepower the Na'vi probably have never seen before. The dragon would reduce it to a blasted heap of rubble, those daisy cutters would probably leave absolutely nothing of the Na'vi's most sacred place but a crater.

Hell, I think that the moment Sully's spy warned him of the attack, the mission became impossible to accomplish, since all the warriors left the camp anyway, so all he'd do was blow up an important religious site and kill lots of defenceless civilians. I don't really think it would break the Na'Vi will to fight. It certainly never worked in history.

Except that it's stated outright in the film that if that tree gets blown up then the Na'vi resistance to the RDA is effectively finished. It would shatter them irreparably since Quaritch will have proven his ability to utterly bitchslap their tangibly real Great Mother.

Quaritch was worried that the army would soon be big enough to overrun the perimeter with a high probability of success.
Worried enough he decided on that crazy plan in the first place, rather than sitting behind the defences with his troops, slaughtering the natives and then going to blow up the soul tree.

He was worried that they would overrun the perimeter if they sat back and just allowed the Na'vi to continue gathering forces until they were ready to attack. That was why he decided to go and blow the fuck out of the place before they had the opportunity to gather those numbers since he knew that blowing the tree up would nip the whole thing in the bud and end it right there. Sully had roughly 1/10th the numbers Quaritch thought would be necessary to overrun the base.

[Enosh]

This is because conventional combat and conventional bombing has done so wonderfully to stop resistance movements and insurgent groups throughout the history of modern 20th century warfare from Vietnam to Afghanistan to Afghanistan again and Iraq, am i rite?

yes obviously a compleatly alien species with difrent cultural values and world view will have the exact same response to the destruction of a holy site as human would, am i rite?

the na'vi were preaty much paralysed after the RDA destroyed the home tree and didn't do shit out of fear, it needed Jake (someone with the above mentioned cultural values and worldview) taming the dragon thing to give them the figthing spirit to cary on

[adam_grif]

I was disappointed when Colonel Macho got killed. I was hoping he'd be one of the survivors so he could come back and twirl his mustache some more in the sequels.

When he runs out of the room and everybody else is scrambling for their masks, I got this mental image of Blaine from Predator shouting "I AIN'T GOT TIME TO BREATHE!"

In the theater, as soon as the furry sex scene happened people started cat calling. Sigh.

[Bluewolf]

furry sex scene happened people started cat calling. Sigh.

Lol, I love that anything anthropomorphic which is gets into anything remotely sexual is furry. I mean we all know that anthropomorphic=furry now.

Gods, you remind me of SA's goons mewing about how this was "a furfag film". You probably meant this as an off joke but still, it's a laugh to see people say such things when by their own reasoning, Tony the Tiger is a down right furry.

Anyway I am hoping to see this film. Hopefully on the Imax as I want to get the most out of the films visuals. The comments here aside from the miliwanking tangent make the film sound good and I really need to get to the cinema more. I am optimistic about in general really.

[adam_grif]

furry sex scene happened people started cat calling. Sigh.

Lol, I love that anything anthropomorphic which is gets into anything remotely sexual is furry. I mean we all know that anthropomorphic=furry now.

That'd be because anthropomorphic does = furry, and has since the inception of the term.

I know people around here hate it, but this is the opening paragraph from Wikipedia's "Furry fandom" page, emphasis added:

Furry fandom (also known as furrydom, fur fandom or furdom) refers to the fandom for fictional anthropomorphic animal characters with human personalities and characteristics.[1] Examples of anthropomorphic attributes include exhibiting human intelligence and facial expressions, the ability to speak, walk on two legs, and wear clothes. Furry fandom is also used to refer to the community of artists, writers, role players and general fans of the furry art forms who gather on the Internet and at conventions.[2][3]

[Bluewolf]

So you are going by a very loosely defined term that even the the fandom cannot agree on while at the same time using a website that anyone can edit? Ehh...

Furry can mean fursuit or furry can mean anthropomorphic and the the term is so damned loose and unofficial that you really cannot just go by Wikipedia. It is not a thing set in stone.

Also again, many people here would not consider werewolves, sports mascots, advertising mascots, certain aliens etc furry either. From a common sense view you would not say they were. Plus, in the end, furry as a word does not have that meaning in proper dictionaries.

[Samuel]

Besides, they don't have fur and aren't anthromorphic animals. Aliens don't count as furries unless they are borrowed from ones on Earth.

Is furry considered something bad? I thought it was a implicationless classification.

[adam_grif]

Is furry considered something bad? I thought it was a implicationless classification.

Can be an insult ("You're a furfag") or neutral.

Besides, they don't have fur and aren't anthromorphic animals. Aliens don't count as furries unless they are borrowed from ones on Earth.

Fur is optional. The Na'Vi have a lot in common with Cat People. They're definately anthropomorfic, and if the only distinction you're going to make is that it has to be an "animal" in the taxonomic sense instead of the colloquial sense, then you've won a very hollow victory indeed.

So you are going by a very loosely defined term that even the the fandom cannot agree on while at the same time using a website that anyone can edit? Ehh...

As opposed to going with what? Whatever you say it does or does not mean?

[Bluewolf]

Is furry considered something bad? I thought it was a implicationless classification

Some stuff furries are into is pretty fucked up and the way a lot act (will jump on anyone who dares criticize them) has generated a lot of distaste to them. This has also made them the butt of jokes and generated some hate. By no means is furry=automatically bad though.

Oh and this is dragging the thread subject into different waters. I would not mind if we moved this elsewhere or if needed, went back on subject. I don't want to derail this thread on stuff no one cares about.

[PeZook]

Except that they make it abundantly clear in the movie that this isn't case. In fact I believe it's specifically stated that taking out the tree would have destroyed the Na'vi as a people.

It was stated first by a jerkoff merc colonel who doesn't know anything about Na'Vi culture, and then (with somewhat less gravity) by a bunch of humans who only really got to know the Na'Vi for a grand total of three months.

Yeah, that's really good authority on what they would do.

The point was a shock and awe attack. A single strike that would obliterate the tree and anything around it with a level of firepower the Na'vi probably have never seen before. The dragon would reduce it to a blasted heap of rubble, those daisy cutters would probably leave absolutely nothing of the Na'vi's most sacred place but a crater.

Yeah, and? If the warriors scattered, the "shock and awe attack" would've accomplished zilch. If the bomber was destroyed, there'd be no "shock and awe attack" at all, just a rehash of the Home Tree bombing, except this time the RDA would've taken losses.

Either way, shock and awe doesn't work. Especially against people with a highly martial culture like the Na'Vi.

Except that it's stated outright in the film that if that tree gets blown up then the Na'vi resistance to the RDA is effectively finished. It would shatter them irreparably since Quaritch will have proven his ability to utterly bitchslap their tangibly real Great Mother.

Yeah, just like countless times in history when empires proved the gods wouldn't protect their people, right? Faith is irrational. While Eywa was tangible, the Na'Vi faith in it wasn't scientific or rational, so they'd just make up an explanation and proceed with their vengeance.

He was worried that they would overrun the perimeter if they sat back and just allowed the Na'vi to continue gathering forces until they were ready to attack. That was why he decided to go and blow the fuck out of the place before they had the opportunity to gather those numbers since he knew that blowing the tree up would nip the whole thing in the bud and end it right there. Sully had roughly 1/10th the numbers Quaritch thought would be necessary to overrun the base.

How could he possibly know that's what would happen? He didn't know jack about Na'Vi culture, since the RDA leadership refused to listen to their experts. He didn't ask Sully even once about how the enemy thinks, all he was interested in was information with an immediate military use.

yes obviously a compleatly alien species with difrent cultural values and world view will have the exact same response to the destruction of a holy site as human would, am i rite?

Except their culture and worldview wasn't completely alien at all. It was no more different than what you can see between human cultures. They certainly reacted the same way as humans do to things like betrayal.

the na'vi were preaty much paralysed after the RDA destroyed the home tree and didn't do shit out of fear, it needed Jake (someone with the above mentioned cultural values and worldview) taming the dragon thing to give them the figthing spirit to cary on

They were paralyzed (more like disorganized) for a couple of days, then Sully came with the dragon, did a speech and organized the clans. What did you expect to happen after a major defeat like that? They just faced the sky people's heavy weapons for the first time, of course they'd need time to think about what they've seen, and for the rage to build up. Sully just made the process easier, since he knew exactly what the RDA could and could not do.

There's no reason to expect the Na'Vi would've stayed passive forever, even without someone like Sully. The fact Sully was there to lead them only made the whole "shock and awe" concept more, not less stupid. Especially since you now reminded me that it wouldn't have even destroyed most of the Na'Vi army, just a small part of it, so Sully would still have enough forces to overrun the perimeter even if he completely lost the engagement

Generally speaking, in order to destroy a people's will to resist, you need to crush their capability to offer resistance, not blow up religious symbols. Quaritch should've crushed the Na'Vi army when it was fully assembled and on the move, outside of the flux vortex, where he'd be able to use all of his weapons, sensors and speed to slaughter them at range.

[adam_grif]

I found it a little jarring that the arrows on their bows went from "lightly scratches the glass" to "totally over-penetrates the glass then goes through both sides of the pilot" with the added velocity of diving down.

It was also odd that everybody's communicators were working just fine, indicating radio signals worked, but computers were all screwy.

[Sarevok]

The flux vortex did not affect computers. Grace's mobile research station was right on top of a floating mountain. Tiny radios, avatar links, powered armors, motion tracker etc all worked. The only thing that messed up was aircraft navigation. They probably fly using some compass derivative instead of gps so it does not work near strong magnetic fields.

[Serafina]

I found it a little jarring that the arrows on their bows went from "lightly scratches the glass" to "totally over-penetrates the glass then goes through both sides of the pilot" with the added velocity of diving down.

It was also odd that everybody's communicators were working just fine, indicating radio signals worked, but computers were all screwy.

They were fired at some distance and at a pretty bad angle the first time.
The second time, they were fired at point-blank range, at a straight angle and with the speed of a steep dive behind them.
Makes perfect sense to me.

[Darwin]

I found it a little jarring that the arrows on their bows went from "lightly scratches the glass" to "totally over-penetrates the glass then goes through both sides of the pilot" with the added velocity of diving down.

It was also odd that everybody's communicators were working just fine, indicating radio signals worked, but computers were all screwy.

They were fired at some distance and at a pretty bad angle the first time.
The second time, they were fired at point-blank range, at a straight angle and with the speed of a steep dive behind them.
Makes perfect sense to me.

and as I mentioned before, the dive about doubles the energy behind the arrow, plus being fired at point-blank range, and they may well have been using heavier, special-made arrows with coaching from Jakesully, maybe even with metal tips, in which case, even easier.

[Sarevok]

They were fired at some distance and at a pretty bad angle the first time.
The second time, they were fired at point-blank range, at a straight angle and with the speed of a steep dive behind them.
Makes perfect sense to me.

A more valid criticism might be that all RDA equipment was designed to be exploited by an enemy with arrows. There was no reason for that glass cockpit on the powered armor. The colonel would not have died if he ended up with a shattered glass canopy offering zero protection.

Similarly the VTOLs have convenient exposed gunners and side doors through which flying creatures can enter and massacre everyone. Even the mighty Dragon type flying fortress has people sitting on the roof shooting guns. The sole reliance on super complex VTOLs for everything stinks of inefficiency. A pair of simple 1950s A-1 Skyraider type planes would have been perfect for both clearing the sky and bombing the ground with impunity. They are too fast for aerial creatures and have no fancy electronics to be affected by "flux vortexes".

On the ground RDA soldiers wore clumsy body armor that did not stop arrows and left their muscular arms exposed so they can be stung by poisonous plants and insects. They carried futuristic automatic firearms yet no simple RPGs that could stop even those giant dinosaurs at the end.

RDA equipment was designed to get it's operators killed.

[Highlord Laan]

RDA equipment was designed to get it's operators killed.

RDA equipment was likely designed to not only be as light as possible, but modular, multi-purpose and easy to repair. It was all likely designed by corporate techs that were asked to design equipment that could be used for both military and mining/industrial work, with more emphasis on the latter.

RDA wasn't using top of the line military hardware. Thats the impression I got, anyway. If RDA had access to battle tested, properly trained, led and equipped Regulars that are more likely in standing military forces already and not corporate mercs, I'd bet Sully and the Na'vi would have been slapped down quite firmly very early on.

[Shroom Man 777]

Jesus Christ, you might as well whine about how Blackwater doesn't have M1 Abrams and instead has its guys in modified SUVs or, at best, in MRAPs which are their most heavily armed vehicles. You could go on about how their body armor is relatively light, how they don't come packing .50 caliber machine guns or missile-TOWs or grenade launchers. You could go on about how the best Blackwater has are helicopters, and how even ex-South African Defense Force mercenaries in Executive Outcomes don't have A-10 Warthogs and have to stick with "VTOL" helicopters and Hind Ds.

Geeze. Maybe someone should post a graph about how the RDA mercenaries could've killed more people if they used XB-70 Valkyries or had Nike-Hercules SAM batteries if it weren't for Robert Space McNamara limiting their arms and prohibiting Lightspeed LeMay from using strategic bombing on Hanoi!

[Crazedwraith]

Sarevok just a couple of points:
1) They needed the weaker transparent sections on the power armour so that they could see
2) RPGs wouldn't have saved them at the end. They maybe have been apply to blast one of the large animals dead and them they'd haven been scrabbling around trying to reload or pull out another and the mates of the one you just killed will be stomping on your face before you manage it. A few RPGs will not save you when the entire damn planet is actively trying to kill you