StarDestroyer.Net BBS

They made him call this particluar ship a fleet killer, implying this ship is better at fleet killing that other ships, and the movie devotes most of its screentime to a task force which can't kill a fleet.

He couldn't have predicted that, sure, so at the moment that might have seem reckless and stupid, depending on how strong is the first order. But in hindsight he made the right call.

He is not only a main character, but also a hero figure within the universe, very influential and important for morale. Pink lady has no charisma, doesn't inspire trust (and yes, her special snowflake attire is a problem if it makes her look unprofessional), doesn't understand the concept of morale. She is a terrible commander.

On top of that she is petty and extremely conceited, to the point of being ready to sacrifice the entire resistance just to show everyone how right she was.

How would you defend her behaviour after the mutiny?

Two things bugging me since seeing it.

Why didn't any of the First Order Star Destroyers just jump ahead of the cruiser in system? Their hyperdrive is accurate enough to come out right on top of the cruiser, should be able to manage a tactical jump for a pincer maneuver.

Why didn't they swarm the cruiser with fighters once its escort ships were destroyed? Their hangars were well stocked and they'd taken out the Resistance's fighter wings.

There's just so many flaws with each side's course of action here, and no good explanations for why.

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 03:02pm The fact that the transports are being fueled is plainly visible to the whole bridge crew, and literally none of them are surprised when Poe treats it as a major revelation.

Remember, the audience has followed Poe's perspective, we only know what he knows. So yes, most of the bridge officers do know what's going on and despite some of them joining the mutiny, swayed by him alleging Holdo of cowardice, Poe still can't actually hold the ship. Only two people actually join him on the bridge so he can execute his plan and as soon as Holdo is free the mutiny crumbles immediately, implying that it really isn't very big at all.

We also know that they could have jumped immediately straight to a safer system instead of traveling for at least a day receiving potshots from the enemy until they're on vapors. It's just as arguable that the fuel they burned running away could have been used for the transports. It's just as possible that they could have used the ram tactic immediately while the transports run away instead of being destroyed while Holdo looks on in blind horror. And without sacrificing her two support ships. Again, this is not a valid tactic.

She just got lucky that the First Order were just as idiotic about not using a Pincer tactic with other ships, as again, the Resistance flotilla was going in a straight line. That's it, she got lucky, and it cost plenty of Resistance fighters their lives, and less importantly, ships and material.

eMeM wrote: 2017-12-25 03:07pm They made him call this particluar ship a fleet killer, implying this ship is better at fleet killing that other ships, and the movie devotes most of its screentime to a task force which can't kill a fleet.

The Resistance doesn't have a fucking fleet. They have one cruiser. You can count their ships on the fingers of the average Skywalker. The Dreadnought being a "fleet killer" is only relevant to Poe because he's a dipshit who's fighting the wrong kind of war, one where blowing up an enemy ship is a "win" no matter how much of your force it cost.

In hindsight he did not make the right call, hell for all you know if they'd aborted the attack and broken off before the rest of the First Order ships arrived they may not even have been tracked because it was Snoke's ship doing that and the First Order commanders have all the initiative of a sack of potatoes.

FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-12-25 03:21pm

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 03:02pm The fact that the transports are being fueled is plainly visible to the whole bridge crew, and literally none of them are surprised when Poe treats it as a major revelation.

Remember, the audience has followed Poe's perspective, we only know what he knows. So yes, most of the bridge officers do know what's going on and despite some of them joining the mutiny, swayed by him alleging Holdo of cowardice, Poe still can't actually hold the ship. Only two people actually join him on the bridge so he can execute his plan and as soon as Holdo is free the mutiny crumbles immediately, implying that it really isn't very big at all.

We also know that they could have jumped immediately straight to a safer system instead of traveling for at least a day receiving potshots from the enemy until they're on vapors.

They know they've been tracked through Hyperspace, there are no safer systems. They can jump once more and then they're caught immediately with no fuel to prolong the chase.

You're starting to make Poe look clever now.

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 03:23pm

FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-12-25 03:21pm

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 03:02pm The fact that the transports are being fueled is plainly visible to the whole bridge crew, and literally none of them are surprised when Poe treats it as a major revelation.

Remember, the audience has followed Poe's perspective, we only know what he knows. So yes, most of the bridge officers do know what's going on and despite some of them joining the mutiny, swayed by him alleging Holdo of cowardice, Poe still can't actually hold the ship. Only two people actually join him on the bridge so he can execute his plan and as soon as Holdo is free the mutiny crumbles immediately, implying that it really isn't very big at all.

We also know that they could have jumped immediately straight to a safer system instead of traveling for at least a day receiving potshots from the enemy until they're on vapors.

They know they've been tracked through Hyperspace, there are no safer systems. They can jump once more and then they're caught immediately with no fuel to prolong the chase.

You're starting to make Poe look clever now.

They can track the main ship, not the support vessels.

EDIT: She also wasted at least a day not calling for help, when she could have.

Imperial528 wrote: 2017-12-25 03:16pm Two things bugging me since seeing it.

Why didn't any of the First Order Star Destroyers just jump ahead of the cruiser in system? Their hyperdrive is accurate enough to come out right on top of the cruiser, should be able to manage a tactical jump for a pincer maneuver.

Why didn't they swarm the cruiser with fighters once its escort ships were destroyed? Their hangars were well stocked and they'd taken out the Resistance's fighter wings.

There's just so many flaws with each side's course of action here, and no good explanations for why.

Hux is also an idiot. Even Snoke thinks he's an idiot. Snoke keeps him in his position because he's an idiot with the right ideology (a common failure mode of totalitarian states, ideology often trumps competence). The First Order's command structure is paralysed by overcentralisation led by someone who is explicitly not good at his job. Also they know the Resistance can't escape because they're able to track wherever they go and will run out of fuel, they're not in a hurry.

FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-12-25 03:24pm

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 03:23pm

FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-12-25 03:21pm

We also know that they could have jumped immediately straight to a safer system instead of traveling for at least a day receiving potshots from the enemy until they're on vapors.

They know they've been tracked through Hyperspace, there are no safer systems. They can jump once more and then they're caught immediately with no fuel to prolong the chase.

You're starting to make Poe look clever now.

They can track the main ship, not the support vessels.

EDIT: She also wasted at least a day not calling for help, when she could have.

The Resistance don't know that. They don't know how they're being tracked, but they know they are. If the First Order has managed to plant homing devices on them (the normal way of tracking a ship through hyperspace) they could easily be tracking all three ships and the support ships would be easy prey if a Star Destroyer broke off to follow them.

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 03:26pm

Imperial528 wrote: 2017-12-25 03:16pm Two things bugging me since seeing it.

Why didn't any of the First Order Star Destroyers just jump ahead of the cruiser in system? Their hyperdrive is accurate enough to come out right on top of the cruiser, should be able to manage a tactical jump for a pincer maneuver.

Why didn't they swarm the cruiser with fighters once its escort ships were destroyed? Their hangars were well stocked and they'd taken out the Resistance's fighter wings.

There's just so many flaws with each side's course of action here, and no good explanations for why.

Hux is also an idiot. Even Snoke thinks he's an idiot. Snoke keeps him in his position because he's an idiot with the right ideology (a common failure mode of totalitarian states, ideology often trumps competence). The First Order's command structure is paralysed by overcentralisation led by someone who is explicitly not good at his job. Also they know the Resistance can't escape because they're able to track wherever they go and will run out of fuel, they're not in a hurry.

Then the Resistance needs to make one target into many. Scatter and divide the First Order forces. Enough decoys and the Resistance can regroup later when they're not dealing with a fuel crisis. Anything is better than a slow, morale killing, assured death as you watch your friends die on the other ships and know that the same will happen to you, and your leader won't call for help, and just have hope.

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 03:28pm

FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-12-25 03:24pm

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 03:23pm They know they've been tracked through Hyperspace, there are no safer systems. They can jump once more and then they're caught immediately with no fuel to prolong the chase.

You're starting to make Poe look clever now.

They can track the main ship, not the support vessels.

EDIT: She also wasted at least a day not calling for help, when she could have.

The Resistance don't know that. They don't know how they're being tracked, but they know they are. If the First Order has managed to plant homing devices on them (the normal way of tracking a ship through hyperspace) they could easily be tracking all three ships and the support ships would be easy prey if a Star Destroyer broke off to follow them.

Again, scatter. Give the enemy various directions to go, and meet elsewhere once there ships have been checked. They were already easy prey as is, and weren't even calling for help as they ran. Poe did, but Holdo is too good a commander to call for help, apparently.

Remember, things were so bad after Holdo's little speech that Rose had to stun three people before Finn at the escape pods. That's pretty bad morale there.

Again though, the support ships were also out of fuel, and they would be easily caught and killed if they were being tracked.

"Scatter" is only a good plan if you aren't outnumbered and exhausted to the point that you can all be trivially chased. The Resistance was badly outnumbered and if their support ships were caught by litearlly any single First Order warship they would have been killed immediately.

Also, you are assuming that because the ship could manage point to point communication it could manage a galaxy wide broadcast to reach enough allies in time. (Which given that they are going to Crait specifically because it has equipment that can do that it almost certainly doesn't).

FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-12-25 03:31pm
Again, scatter. Give the enemy various directions to go, and meet elsewhere once there ships have been checked. They were already easy prey as is, and weren't even calling for help as they ran. Poe did, but Holdo is too good a commander to call for help, apparently.

Someone could say the transports didn't have hyperdrives.

A. The transports in Empire that looked almost exactly the same had hyperdrives.

B. Every random ass xwing has a hyperdrive. Luke sold his landspeeder in ANH and seemed to say he could almost afford his own ship with a hyperdrives using his earnings. Hyperdrives are cheap.

C. Finn and Rose flew away on a tiny 2 person smart car with a hyperdrive and nobody noticed. Not even Holdo's ship detected it.

As for Holdo. She could have just told Poe her plan. She came across as a crazy person just saying "let's just keep going until we're killed" like she just wanted to go out pretending everything was fine.

It's like if she was sitting at the bar on the sinking titanic and was going "let's just have some drinks and just ride it out."

We were supposed to think she was wrong, and then the director went "ha, fooled you" and then put a planet in the movie conveniently that no one detected even though you could look out a window and see it with the naked eye. We're not even shown the sun to let us know we were in a solar system.

The director just wrote himself out of a corner with that planet conveniently showing up.

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 03:22pm

eMeM wrote: 2017-12-25 03:07pm They made him call this particluar ship a fleet killer, implying this ship is better at fleet killing that other ships, and the movie devotes most of its screentime to a task force which can't kill a fleet.

The Resistance doesn't have a fucking fleet. They have one cruiser. You can count their ships on the fingers of the average Skywalker. The Dreadnought being a "fleet killer" is only relevant to Poe because he's a dipshit who's fighting the wrong kind of war, one where blowing up an enemy ship is a "win" no matter how much of your force it cost.

In hindsight he did not make the right call, hell for all you know if they'd aborted the attack and broken off before the rest of the First Order ships arrived they may not even have been tracked because it was Snoke's ship doing that and the First Order commanders have all the initiative of a sack of potatoes.

Snoke's ship wasn't present over Crait. EDIT sorry, not Crait, I mean the planet with the rebel base from tfa, forgot the name

If a ship is capable of killing fleets, it's also capable of killing ships by definition, as fleet is what you call a group of ships.

Of course unless the cannons are opeated by an AI that agrees to fire only at fleets with more than one heavy cruiser, or it kills fleets in the formal sense, by reorganizing them into smaller, independent formations.


@up the director didn't write himself in to a corner, it was all deliberate, this whole damn movie is one terrible bait and switch after another.

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 03:23pm

FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-12-25 03:21pm

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 03:02pm The fact that the transports are being fueled is plainly visible to the whole bridge crew, and literally none of them are surprised when Poe treats it as a major revelation.

Remember, the audience has followed Poe's perspective, we only know what he knows. So yes, most of the bridge officers do know what's going on and despite some of them joining the mutiny, swayed by him alleging Holdo of cowardice, Poe still can't actually hold the ship. Only two people actually join him on the bridge so he can execute his plan and as soon as Holdo is free the mutiny crumbles immediately, implying that it really isn't very big at all.

We also know that they could have jumped immediately straight to a safer system instead of traveling for at least a day receiving potshots from the enemy until they're on vapors.

They know they've been tracked through Hyperspace, there are no safer systems. They can jump once more and then they're caught immediately with no fuel to prolong the chase.

You're starting to make Poe look clever now.

Why are there no safer systems? This movie is immediately after TFA, after the FO nuked the Republics capital and main fleet. No where in the fucking galaxy was there either a Republic system or Republic friendly system that would look friendly towards the lone cruiser and have some ass big enough to deter that fleet after them?

Because if so, that's a huge plot hole.

Who were they trying to contact anyway? The Hutt cartell? The Mon Calamari? The Yhuzang Vong? The Trade Federation? The Imperial Remnant?

Of course rebels teaming up with any of those would be too cool.

Unless the thing Finn and Rose took was the only surviving hyperspace capable ship, they could even send couriers to their allies. If it was the last one, I think Finn and Rose would use their time better visiting a few key systems and leaving a message than doing what they did.

Also I guess Kylie blew up ALL the fighters in their docking bay but dozens of transports were left untouched.

Otherwise you could just send Poe in 1 xwing to shoot all the guns off the first order ships.

eMeM wrote: 2017-12-25 03:57pm

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 03:22pm

eMeM wrote: 2017-12-25 03:07pm They made him call this particluar ship a fleet killer, implying this ship is better at fleet killing that other ships, and the movie devotes most of its screentime to a task force which can't kill a fleet.

The Resistance doesn't have a fucking fleet. They have one cruiser. You can count their ships on the fingers of the average Skywalker. The Dreadnought being a "fleet killer" is only relevant to Poe because he's a dipshit who's fighting the wrong kind of war, one where blowing up an enemy ship is a "win" no matter how much of your force it cost.

In hindsight he did not make the right call, hell for all you know if they'd aborted the attack and broken off before the rest of the First Order ships arrived they may not even have been tracked because it was Snoke's ship doing that and the First Order commanders have all the initiative of a sack of potatoes.

Snoke's ship wasn't present over Crait. EDIT sorry, not Crait, I mean the planet with the rebel base from tfa, forgot the name

If a ship is capable of killing fleets, it's also capable of killing ships by definition, as fleet is what you call a group of ships.

Snoke's ship arrives with its supports just as the Dreadnought is destroyed. It then tracks and follows the Resistance fleet through hyperspace.

Also, the point is that every other First Order warship is a "fleet killer" to the Resistance, so spending their entire bomber wing to destroy that one Dreadnought is of no strategic value. Its destruction is a phyrric victory.

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 06:21pm
Snoke's ship wasn't present over Crait. EDIT sorry, not Crait, I mean the planet with the rebel base from tfa, forgot the name

If a ship is capable of killing fleets, it's also capable of killing ships by definition, as fleet is what you call a group of ships.

Snoke's ship arrives with its supports just as the Dreadnought is destroyed. It then tracks and follows the Resistance fleet through hyperspace.

Also, the point is that every other First Order warship is a "fleet killer" to the Resistance, so spending their entire bomber wing to destroy that one Dreadnought is of no strategic value. Its destruction is a phyrric victory.
[/quote]

No, the 'fleet killer' was considerably larger than the rest of the First Order fleet.

FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-12-25 06:43pm No, the 'fleet killer' was considerably larger than the rest of the First Order fleet.

Yes, it was larger and more capable than the other First Order warships.

But that was completely irrelevant because the entire Resistance fleet was one heavy combatant, one small escort, and a hospital ship.

Any single Star Destroyer was a "fleet killer" to them.

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 07:05pm

FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-12-25 06:43pm No, the 'fleet killer' was considerably larger than the rest of the First Order fleet.

Yes, it was larger and more capable than the other First Order warships.

But that was completely irrelevant because the entire Resistance fleet was one heavy combatant, one small escort, and a hospital ship.

Any single Star Destroyer was a "fleet killer" to them.

Apparently not so long as the Resistance ships had enough fuel to maintain a distance out of the effective range of the First Order fleet's turbolasers. The dreadnought's cannons, however, were powerful enough to overwhelm the Resistance fleet's shields without closing that distance.

Which means Poe's recklessness saved their asses, even if they didn't know it at the time.

Galvatron wrote: 2017-12-25 07:17pm

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 07:05pm

FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-12-25 06:43pm No, the 'fleet killer' was considerably larger than the rest of the First Order fleet.

Yes, it was larger and more capable than the other First Order warships.

But that was completely irrelevant because the entire Resistance fleet was one heavy combatant, one small escort, and a hospital ship.

Any single Star Destroyer was a "fleet killer" to them.

Apparently not so long as the Resistance ships had enough fuel to maintain a distance out of the effective range of the First Order fleet's turbolasers. The dreadnought's cannons, however, were powerful enough to overwhelm the Resistance fleet's shields without closing that distance.

Which means Poe's recklessness saved their asses, even if they didn't know it at the time.

If they hadn't stopped to conduct a painfully slow bombing run on the Dreadnought, they could have been away clean before the ship with the tracking system active arrived.

Well, I'm still hazy on how the whole hyperspace tracking thing works so you may be right. Did the Supremacy have to be nearby when the Resistance fleet jumped in order to track them?

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 07:34pm

Galvatron wrote: 2017-12-25 07:17pm

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 07:05pm

Yes, it was larger and more capable than the other First Order warships.

But that was completely irrelevant because the entire Resistance fleet was one heavy combatant, one small escort, and a hospital ship.

Any single Star Destroyer was a "fleet killer" to them.

Apparently not so long as the Resistance ships had enough fuel to maintain a distance out of the effective range of the First Order fleet's turbolasers. The dreadnought's cannons, however, were powerful enough to overwhelm the Resistance fleet's shields without closing that distance.

Which means Poe's recklessness saved their asses, even if they didn't know it at the time.

If they hadn't stopped to conduct a painfully slow bombing run on the Dreadnought, they could have been away clean before the ship with the tracking system active arrived.

Finn stated that every ship in th FO fleet had the ability to track them in hyperspace. So the moment the FO fleet arrived over Da'q they were screwed.
The Supremacy was most likely given that job because it was the flag ship of the FO or their combat doctrine demands it.

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 07:34pm
If they hadn't stopped to conduct a painfully slow bombing run on the Dreadnought, they could have been away clean before the ship with the tracking system active arrived.

Yes, they could have done that, if they wanted to say goodbye to half their transports, if not their fleet, as the ship was targeting them with their heavy weapons.