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Formless wrote: 2023-05-04 09:08pm

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2023-04-29 12:07pmYou do realise you can say the exact same thing about Memory Alpha, right? Besides, the passage I quoted actually does cite the relevant episodes which you'd have noticed had you bothered to read never mind address it.

Again, not true. Memory Alpha requires citations; TVTropes explicitly says in their policies that they do not. They also have a history of users making overly broad statements that have required them to redefine tropes over time as their utility was called into question, or to rope off an entire category of "tropes" as related more to an audience's reactions than what is actually in the text, and therefore need to be listed on the YMMV part of a show's page rather than the general Trope page, etc. The problem I'm trying to highlight is the community, not just the site.

I was obviously referring to the ability of anyone to edit both sites, but any issues of the community are ultimately irrelevant to this discussion because in this specific instance it does cite the relevant sources. And I already gave my reasoning for using it.

To quote the Borg, this is irrelevant. Her ass was never chewed out by Necheyev, so she doesn't have Picard's specific orders to harm the Borg; and the fact that the war could be beneficial to the Federation was brought up in an argument with Chakotay, so it isn't like the writers forgot. They just really, really wanted to sell Species 8472 as the greater threat in that episode, because of the show's overall "Janeway is always right" syndrome that only lessened when they had Seven of Nine there as a counterbalance, a member of the crew who isn't completely pussy whipped like Chakotay (remember, he essentially apologizes to Janeway at the end of Scorpion!). After Scorpion, Janeway goes right back to being a stickler for Starfleet regulation. Thus, you can't cherry pick this episode as a sign of character development. With the exceptions of the Doctor and Seven, Voyager was where character development went to die.

Nechayev chewed out Picard for having the opportunity to cripple the Borg in "I, Borg" (by using Hugh) and not using it. Whether ultimately the effects of Hugh's individuality (which led to the events of "Descent" where Lore took over) were more damaging to the collective as Picard had hoped than that stupid unsolvable geometric shape idea, was never explored.

That was future Janeway. Our Janeway actually managed to convince her to compromise with her on destroying the Transwarp hub and sacrifice herself to deliver that stupid Borg virus. If anything, Future Janeway is proof that Voyager is where character development goes to die and that our Janeway remains a stickler for Starfleet protocol. This, remember, is after that one guy with the ship disguised as a Starfleet ship showed her the consequences of helping the Borg defeat Species 8472, so there is in-universe reason to think she changed her mind about that being a good idea.

That one guy was named Arturis from species 116, and the ship was the USS Dauntless. Incidentally Hope and Fear does go some way to developing both Janeway and Seven's relationship.

If you had watched the episode in question, and I have, you would know the conflict between her and Ransom started because she used a technicality in Starfleet protocol concerning her ship being tactically superior and not beat to crap as a way of pulling rank on someone who has the same rank as her. Yes, she is a douche, but she's a douche within the rules of Starfleet. It isn't until she attempts to torture one of his crewmembers in that episode that it becomes clear she's made it a personal vendetta and is willing to break the rules to follow it. And after this two-parter, everything is forgotten because Voyager... say it with me... is where character development goes to die.

The episode's novelization reveals that Janeway only quotes half the regulation, and it doesn't actually allow her to order Ransom and his crew to abandon ship.
Dude, I can't say that. Not with a straight face anyway! The Voyager-sized caveat "the exceptions of the Doctor and Seven" contradicts your later statement.

For what it's worth you are right about one thing, there is no lingering problem with Janeway; there is no deeper issue coming to the fore and it all gets forgotten the next episode. And that's not the only time it happens, the ultimate example is The Voyager Conspiracy and how easily Seven turns Janeway and Chakotay against one another, and is never addressed again. Voyager... is where continuity goes to die

Apparently so is Picard.

This Janeway discussion seems to have gotten along way from the original point about Crusher Jnr.

Crazedwraith wrote: 2023-05-05 03:54pm Apparently so is Picard.

This Janeway discussion seems to have gotten along way from the original point about Crusher Jnr.

Indeed, if nothing else I can see that pissing off a lot of the Titan's regular personnel that some outsider should just come in like that to become the captain's right hand man regardless of who his parents happen to be.

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2023-05-05 05:29pm

Crazedwraith wrote: 2023-05-05 03:54pm Apparently so is Picard.

This Janeway discussion seems to have gotten along way from the original point about Crusher Jnr.

Indeed, if nothing else I can see that pissing off a lot of the Titan's regular personnel that some outsider should just come in like that to become the captain's right hand man regardless of who his parents happen to be.

Considering Jack is someone who a lot of their colleagues died to protect in the name of starfleet principles. And then he ran off and joined up with the person they were dying to protect him from, and then he assimilated them and forced them to do terrible things to their friends/superior officers and Earth, there should be a lot of resentment there I should think.

There didn't seem to be all that much resentment against Picard when he came back from a similar experience (if on a smaller scale) from being Locutus of Borg. And so far, there hasn't been any time to SHOW whatever resentment may be there.

Batman wrote: 2023-05-05 06:01pm There didn't seem to be all that much resentment against Picard when he came back from a similar experience (if on a smaller scale) from being Locutus of Borg. And so far, there hasn't been any time to SHOW whatever resentment may be there.

Yes, apart from at least two canonical examples of officers that were extremely resentful plus the fact that Picard was obviously and undeniable kidnapped and forced into being Locutus whereas Jack broke out of quarters, hijacked and a ship and flew off to the queen apparently willingly.

And no shit there hasn't been time to, we were speculating about the crews reaction.

Two officers...which isn't exactly much given how many people Locutus got killed at Wolf 359 (however unvoluntarily), and maybe the high and mighty and oh so evolved Federation recognized that he did so because that was the least immidiately shitty solution availabe to him (even if long term it turned out to be disastrous one),but yes if the series continues, I'd expect to see a lot of resenment against Picard jr.

Crazedwraith wrote: 2023-05-05 06:34pm

Batman wrote: 2023-05-05 06:01pm There didn't seem to be all that much resentment against Picard when he came back from a similar experience (if on a smaller scale) from being Locutus of Borg. And so far, there hasn't been any time to SHOW whatever resentment may be there.

Yes, apart from at least two canonical examples of officers that were extremely resentful plus the fact that Picard was obviously and undeniable kidnapped and forced into being Locutus whereas Jack broke out of quarters, hijacked and a ship and flew off to the queen apparently willingly.

And no shit there hasn't been time to, we were speculating about the crews reaction.

While the crews might not KNOW or even believe it, Jack clearly didn't just... decide to go. We was being coerced, the Queen had been in his head quite literally his entire life. He was forced to participate just as much as Picard was... just in a different way.

A FOUR HOUR LONG REVIEW!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdLHKdn0JTY

By a theoretical physicist, if that matters.

"How Star Trek: Picard Ruins Star Trek" Yeah, nah, not spending four hours on that.

Does that review contain any interesting points ?

Yes a lot actually. I watched the entire thing over several days.

Crazedwraith wrote: 2024-08-28 11:27am "How Star Trek: Picard Ruins Star Trek" Yeah, nah, not spending four hours on that.

Sorry it sucks though. Does anyone like it? I personally think it's like being slapped in the face and called names. This show ruined so much for me, it also ruined my perception and respect for Patrick Stewart himself.

His Divine Shadow wrote: 2024-08-29 04:31am

Crazedwraith wrote: 2024-08-28 11:27am "How Star Trek: Picard Ruins Star Trek" Yeah, nah, not spending four hours on that.

Sorry it sucks though. Does anyone like it? I personally think it's like being slapped in the face and called names. This show ruined so much for me, it also ruined my perception and respect for Patrick Stewart himself.

Lol. Try not to take your TV so personally.

Picard has got its strengths and weakness, a lot of weaknesses certainly and never really lived up to its potential. Especially when it stopped trying and became TNG 8 in it's final season.

It doesn't ruin TNG for me and it certainly doesn't run Star Trek as a whole. all they have to do is start making good shows in new time periods and nothing in Picard prevents that.

But regardless of whether I agree or disagree I'm not watching four hours about it. Does the review actually make any cogent, interesting points for us to base a discussion on? Would you summarise them so we can have that discussion?

His Divine Shadow wrote: 2024-08-29 04:30am Yes a lot actually. I watched the entire thing over several days.

What are those points ?

Not gonna summarize it either watch it or don't.

His Divine Shadow wrote: 2024-08-29 02:26pm Not gonna summarize it either watch it or don't.

His Divine Shadow wrote: 2024-08-29 04:31am it also ruined my perception and respect for Patrick Stewart himself.

There's a reason why "Watch this hour+ long video that explains it" is mocked when Jordan Peterson fans or various other choads do it. If you're going to drop comments like this you really should be ready to give some sort of elaboration. It makes you look like a jerk.

I think the most rewatchable part of Picard has to be this where they rip off ROTJ hard.

Though IMO they missed a trick, by not modifying the D into the Galaxy-X model seen in All Good Things.

Though shit like Data finally realising his lifelong goal of being human, and they treat it like it's no big deal

Modifying the D wasn't in the cards within the premise of the show- this is supposed to be the actual salvaged saucer from the E-D we saw crash in Generations, mated with a leftover Galaxy engineering hull/warp nacelles. Nobody's going to upgun what was basically Geordi's hobby project like the Galaxy X was.

His Divine Shadow wrote: 2024-08-29 04:31amSorry it sucks though. Does anyone like it? I personally think it's like being slapped in the face and called names. This show ruined so much for me, it also ruined my perception and respect for Patrick Stewart himself.

How did it ruin Patrick Stewart?

His Divine Shadow wrote: 2024-08-29 02:26pm Not gonna summarize it either watch it or don't.

So we have a 4 hour "review" posted months after the show aired. With you refusing to provide any specifics about the content.

Are you even trying to make the video sound interesting enough to be worth our time ?

It doesn't help that the last time I had any engagement with a long review posted well after the content it was reviewing, it was the gish gallop of hate that was the RLM TPM review.

Batman wrote: 2024-08-29 08:30pm Modifying the D wasn't in the cards within the premise of the show- this is supposed to be the actual salvaged saucer from the E-D we saw crash in Generations, mated with a leftover Galaxy engineering hull/warp nacelles. Nobody's going to upgun what was basically Geordi's hobby project like the Galaxy X was.

True, though if he can recover the previously "unsalvageable" saucer and scrounge up an entire Galaxy-class stardrive section, adding the third nacelle should be child's play. It's the sort of thing the Starfleet Corps of Engineers would have taken on, perhaps they did but Geordi failed to mention their efforts behind the scenes, being a Chief Engineer himself.

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-09-02 04:18pm

Batman wrote: 2024-08-29 08:30pm Modifying the D wasn't in the cards within the premise of the show- this is supposed to be the actual salvaged saucer from the E-D we saw crash in Generations, mated with a leftover Galaxy engineering hull/warp nacelles. Nobody's going to upgun what was basically Geordi's hobby project like the Galaxy X was.

True, though if he can recover the previously "unsalvageable" saucer and scrounge up an entire Galaxy-class stardrive section, adding the third nacelle should be child's play. It's the sort of thing the Starfleet Corps of Engineers would have taken on, perhaps they did but Geordi failed to mention their efforts behind the scenes, being a Chief Engineer himself.

It wasn't meant to be battlefield ready, more like a museum ship working enough for that, not something meant to be taken to a fight.

Think about what museums do when they restore a historical artifact. They don't improve it with modern advances, instead they try to make as close to what it was like in its day as possible. With the only exceptions being to comply with modern regulations, which probably don't do much to a ship intended to remain in a museum.

One you start talking about retrofitting the Enterprise with more modern tech, where do you stop ?

Because if someone had upgraded the Enterprise to the latest in Starfleet automation, that would mean including the very system that allowed the borg to take over the entire fleet.

Lord Revan wrote: 2024-09-03 12:22am

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-09-02 04:18pm

Batman wrote: 2024-08-29 08:30pm Modifying the D wasn't in the cards within the premise of the show- this is supposed to be the actual salvaged saucer from the E-D we saw crash in Generations, mated with a leftover Galaxy engineering hull/warp nacelles. Nobody's going to upgun what was basically Geordi's hobby project like the Galaxy X was.

True, though if he can recover the previously "unsalvageable" saucer and scrounge up an entire Galaxy-class stardrive section, adding the third nacelle should be child's play. It's the sort of thing the Starfleet Corps of Engineers would have taken on, perhaps they did but Geordi failed to mention their efforts behind the scenes, being a Chief Engineer himself.

It wasn't meant to be battlefield ready, more like a museum ship working enough for that, not something meant to be taken to a fight.

Yet it still had its complement of live photon torpedoes.