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With portal technology, how important is it that the gates be opened? I can imagine an ellipse opened up on either side of the gate, of sufficient size that it might as well be open, and with humans already inside the city, accomplishing this shouldn't be too difficult.

If we open a portal right into the EC, we run the risk of opening a path right to our army's staging ground. Going through the gates negates that chance, plus it's symbolic.

Also, you can't do a point-to-point portal inside Heaven or hell without going through an intermediary point on earth. Getting the gates actually opened is much easier for logistics.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Also, you can't do a point-to-point portal inside Heaven or hell without going through an intermediary point on earth. Getting the gates actually opened is much easier for logistics.

Easier long-term logistics maybe. Short term, portals would be much easier than trying to get those giant fuckers open.

Erra wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Also, you can't do a point-to-point portal inside Heaven or hell without going through an intermediary point on earth. Getting the gates actually opened is much easier for logistics.

Easier long-term logistics maybe. Short term, portals would be much easier than trying to get those giant fuckers open.

Long-term, I do have to wonder how the gates would be opened. It'd be interesting to introduce the Angels (and possibly the Daemons as well?) to the concept of controlled demolition. Even so, it'd take months of planning and setting up the exact explosive charges. Actually that could be amusing; the angels might complaint he humans aren't just blowing it down with tanks and seem to be doing next to nothing for months/years and then they flip a set of switches to set off the charges and the whole thing comes down in seconds.

Shorter-term than that one of the gates may need to be just shot to pieces anyway, though.

The Angels will see us as weaklings that couldn't get the doors open and had to use shenanigans to get in.

No, symbolism is everything. We have to get through there.

Like I said, one of the gates may need to be shot to pieces anyway. I agree that for symbolism purposes, we should blast one of the gates open and ride right in.

I'd be a little disappointed if that happened with all of the gates, though. For one, regardless of anything else I think with the war at last coming to a close I think we'd want to minimise any unnecessary collateral damage. After all, munitions are meant to destroy whatever they hit and as far as I know, they're not really meant for controlled demolition. I'd imagine opening up on one of the gates would cause a fair bit of damage to the surrounding wall/towers and buildings further inside the Eternal City if/when munitions are shot through holes in the gate that we put there and hits something we didn't mean to. That or simply chunks of the gates flying off and wrecking whatever they happen to land on.

Of course, this only really matters if we're intending to bust all of the gates open eventually.

Actually, with regards to that, I forget it if was ever explicitly mentioned, but what is the distance between the gates/walls of the Eternal City and the first buildings of the city?

Why do the gates need to be destroyed? They're enormous, and I imagine that once open they will tend to STAY open if you park a tank in front of one half as a doorstop. If the angels will open them, by all means preserve their integrity.

I'm rereading Armageddon now, and now that I've stopped lurking I figured I might ask; how was The Message originally delivered? I don't think I've seen mention of a mechanism so far.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Why do the gates need to be destroyed? They're enormous, and I imagine that once open they will tend to STAY open if you park a tank in front of one half as a doorstop. If the angels will open them, by all means preserve their integrity.

Yeah, that's a good point. If they actually manage to get those massive things open, I don't see a reason to destroy them at all.

Arachnidus wrote:I'm rereading Armageddon now, and now that I've stopped lurking I figured I might ask; how was The Message originally delivered? I don't think I've seen mention of a mechanism so far.

I think it was mentioned that it was a humanity-wide psychic message. I could be mistaken, though.

Arachnidus wrote:I'm rereading Armageddon now, and now that I've stopped lurking I figured I might ask; how was The Message originally delivered? I don't think I've seen mention of a mechanism so far.

The exact mechanics and wording of The Message aren't clear. Partly because its better if the reader IMAGINES a devastating message, and partly because if it were possible to write something so devastating that 20% of those who heard it died, it would have been done already.

Regardless, the known characteristics of The Message are:

1. It was universal. Everyone heard it in their native language.
2. It was undeniable. Nobody ever considered it might be a hoax.
3. It was instantatneous. Worldwide, everyone heard it at the same time.

Other than that, its whatever you think it was.

Remember, Michael wants to open the gates if they can figure out how, and plans to ask the humans to demolish them if they can't figure out how they work. I imagine Rafael will tell them all that, as it was part of the message to be delivered.

Regarding the idea of blasting into the Eternal City instead of letting the angels open the doors... I see it as akin to killing someone before they can commit suicide.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:

Arachnidus wrote:I'm rereading Armageddon now, and now that I've stopped lurking I figured I might ask; how was The Message originally delivered? I don't think I've seen mention of a mechanism so far.

I think it was mentioned that it was a humanity-wide psychic message. I could be mistaken, though.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:

Arachnidus wrote:I'm rereading Armageddon now, and now that I've stopped lurking I figured I might ask; how was The Message originally delivered? I don't think I've seen mention of a mechanism so far.

The exact mechanics and wording of The Message aren't clear. Partly because its better if the reader IMAGINES a devastating message, and partly because if it were possible to write something so devastating that 20% of those who heard it died, it would have been done already.

Regardless, the known characteristics of The Message are:

1. It was universal. Everyone heard it in their native language.
2. It was undeniable. Nobody ever considered it might be a hoax.
3. It was instantatneous. Worldwide, everyone heard it at the same time.

Other than that, its whatever you think it was.

Ah, thanks mates. It does make the conjecture far more fun, as one can only assume just how disturbingly worded the message actually was. Especially seeing as it turned most of the world's religions on their own core beliefs.

The density of concrete is 2371 kg/m^3, so a 100m x 50m x (making an assumption here) 50m wide gives us 592,750 metric tons of gate to move. (I know that it isn't made of concrete, but this gives us a good basis for a number.) Adjusting the width of the gate will have a large effect on the mass, so let's say that it's between 30m and 100m, giving us 355,650 tons at the low end to 1,185,500 tons at the high end. Fucking enormous masses.

I'm not an engineer, but I can think of some things that might be interesting. If we could core right through it in hundreds of places, placing large-diameter steel shafts straight through each of them, could a multitude of jacks be used to move this thing up slightly? It would have to be de-coupled from the wall, which is probably easy enough, and if it can be lifted then some sort of rollers could be installed underneath. But calculating bending moments of cylinders is so far back in my education that I'd rather just let someone else do it.

Also, can portals be opened up inside the gate? It seems to me an easy way to get explosives deep inside. I can imagine opening up that portal, drilling a little bit right through it, then tossing in the bomb and closing the portal. I just don't know if the portal mechanics support this.

Somehow... I don't think Yahweh or his spawn are out of it.

Remember, Da Jeezus made his rep with coming back from the dead. And the ability to die and come back is a great ability for anyone who's afraid of assassins. Not to mention that Yahweh has been top dog for so long that not even immortal angels remember when he wasn't in charge; he might have the ability to die and come back and everyone's forgotten about it (if they ever knew - I know I'd hide that ability if I was in His shoes).

So everyone relaxes, Michael-lan-Quisling settles in, the occupation troops are all set up. Then the big central lake begins frothing and boiling ... and suddenly out of the depths with a mighty roar erupts ... YAHWEH! And with a ear-splitting "GRONK!!" he begins stomping on buildings as helicopters and aircraft open fire ...

They needed someone to use as a target to create portals, so they would need to drill through it anyway if they wanted to put a portal inside the gate. Granted, I'm sure portal science has come a bit further from where it was when the story started; there was talk of portaling into random worlds before humanity had gotten a foothold in Heaven, so portaling inside the gate could be technically possible, but not likely something that can be done on demand.

EDIT: The Hellgate was said to have formed a large distance from the Nephillim that the demons used as a target, due to the size of the portal, so if it might actually be possible to aim a little off-target, or if aiming isn't possible, simply create a large number of off-target portals until one is where you want it. Although I don't know if putting one through solid matter is possible or not.

Are you sure that it said the gates were concrete? They could just be like Dis's walls, which were just incredibly thick rock.

MysteriousDarkLordv3 wrote:Somehow... I don't think Yahweh or his spawn are out of it.

Remember, Da Jeezus made his rep with coming back from the dead. And the ability to die and come back is a great ability for anyone who's afraid of assassins. Not to mention that Yahweh has been top dog for so long that not even immortal angels remember when he wasn't in charge; he might have the ability to die and come back and everyone's forgotten about it (if they ever knew - I know I'd hide that ability if I was in His shoes).

Is this a good time to point out that Elhmas got that reputation because he was possessing the guy who actually died? He didn't actually come back from the dead, and it would probably been little effort to find another nephilim and project through them. Or maybe just show up and give a nice Jesus-illusion to show that he is still alive.

Night_stalker wrote:Are you sure that it said the gates were concrete? They could just be like Dis's walls, which were just incredibly thick rock.

No, and I said that the walls would certainly not be made from concrete, since that was invented long after this gate was constructed. But it's within a few percent of whatever the gate is made of. (If it's marble, by the way, that's about 8% denser, and granite is 13% denser.)

StarStorm wrote:

MysteriousDarkLordv3 wrote:Somehow... I don't think Yahweh or his spawn are out of it.

Remember, Da Jeezus made his rep with coming back from the dead. And the ability to die and come back is a great ability for anyone who's afraid of assassins. Not to mention that Yahweh has been top dog for so long that not even immortal angels remember when he wasn't in charge; he might have the ability to die and come back and everyone's forgotten about it (if they ever knew - I know I'd hide that ability if I was in His shoes).

Is this a good time to point out that Elhmas got that reputation because he was possessing the guy who actually died? He didn't actually come back from the dead, and it would probably been little effort to find another nephilim and project through them. Or maybe just show up and give a nice Jesus-illusion to show that he is still alive.

He also did the Lazarus bit. That could be why Yahweh had a kid in the first place - so one of them could resurrect the other Just In Case.

And frankly, I think that all of his Disciples would have been chosen because they were nephilim. They all had reps for miracle-slinging; if they tapped into Elhmas for juice, it would explain how they did it.

True, but regarding those cases of resurrection, there was a body left to resurrect. We haven't found it yet, so he either was unlucky enough to be at the epicenter of the blast, in which case we'll never find a corpse, or he got lucky and teleported away to some palce on Earth where he's healing.

Night_stalker wrote:True, but regarding those cases of resurrection, there was a body left to resurrect. We haven't found it yet, so he either was unlucky enough to be at the epicenter of the blast, in which case we'll never find a corpse, or he got lucky and teleported away to some palce on Earth where he's healing.

Unless he can port out in a few nanoseconds before he's vaporized by a nuclear blast, somehow I doubt it.

Nematocyst wrote:You know, I was thinking about Crowleigh and the B team of SAS since they killed the Gorgon. And my dream came true: they deserved the honor of doing that.

Pelranius wrote:And there we go again. I wonder why Raphael was chosen as the only messenger? It might have been more wise to send out several more angels each with a white flag.

One Angel? Parley.
Many Angels? A battlegroup.

Indeed. The tradition of sending one man to talk is obvious: one man is not generally a menace.

darksoul wrote:

Nematocyst wrote:You know, I was thinking about Crowleigh and the B team of SAS since they killed the Gorgon. And my dream came true: they deserved the honor of doing that.

Pelranius wrote:And there we go again. I wonder why Raphael was chosen as the only messenger? It might have been more wise to send out several more angels each with a white flag.

One Angel? Parley.
Many Angels? A battlegroup.

Indeed. The tradition of sending one man to talk is obvious: one man is not generally a menace.

No, but I think John Adams put it best: "One useless man is called a disgrace; two useless men are called a law firm; and three or more useless men are a congress."