So... many... errorsOk you guys are missing the main problem here. Even with all the advantages that the Empire could possibly have. The Defiant alone could completely shatter any hope that the Empire would have.
All the Federation would have to do is sneak a cloaked Defiant past the Imperial ships, launch a quantum torpedo into the mouth of the wormhol and collapse it using the blast.
Then the Empire is totally cut off from the Federation. After that target every ISD, SSD, or other major warship with a Constitution class ship loaded with Antimatter explosives....and you have one big mass of wrecked Imperial ships. They Empire would never have a chance in hell against that.
Its just like the Dominion, if they could have successfully launched a massive assault with their full fleet, they would have decimated the Federation and penetrated at least as deeply as Earth before any kind of resistance could have been mounted. But the logistics prevented this.
Not only that, a single weapon could totally decimate the Imperial Fleet, build a couple ships loaded with a few thousand transphasic torpedos, and the Empire goes bye bye.
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Another half-baked abortion of an argument:

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It seems to be greater than that of many Trek capital ships, that's very dense, given the ship is only several meters long. And it seems it has a mass of 2.5 million tons, not 5 million. My badBatman wrote:What has the mass got to do with the size of the crew?EnterpriseSovereign wrote:That the one with the insanely high mass? Something like five million tons for a ship that only has a handful of drones?Bounty wrote: It could even be accidental continuity with I, Borg's scout ship.
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I hear the Dominion could take over the Federation with it's wormhole fleet, and this proves that the Empire couldn't! The Feds used all those nerdwank tactics against the Dominion as well, which proves they work.
I love the 'Constitution packed with bombs = defeat ISD' thing, though. How's it going to get anywhere fucking near one? At worst, after the first loss they'll just start jumping away and back again.
I love the 'Constitution packed with bombs = defeat ISD' thing, though. How's it going to get anywhere fucking near one? At worst, after the first loss they'll just start jumping away and back again.
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I told the guy that even if it worked, because the Empire outnumbers the Federation a hundred to one, guess who'll run out of ships first?Stark wrote:I hear the Dominion could take over the Federation with it's wormhole fleet, and this proves that the Empire couldn't! The Feds used all those nerdwank tactics against the Dominion as well, which proves they work.
I love the 'Constitution packed with bombs = defeat ISD' thing, though. How's it going to get anywhere fucking near one? At worst, after the first loss they'll just start jumping away and back again.
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Apparently JM brought up the single A-Wing incident and Aratech wanted to refute him with a picture he knew I could find, but it also fits this scenario very well.Stark wrote:I love the 'Constitution packed with bombs = defeat ISD' thing, though. How's it going to get anywhere fucking near one? At worst, after the first loss they'll just start jumping away and back again.

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Valen this i getting boring to me and I've only been involved in the vs debate here and for less than five years.
Is it just that there's so MANY of them or are Trek fans really that stupid generally?
Is it just that there's so MANY of them or are Trek fans really that stupid generally?
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
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'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
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Stupidity, really I think the majority of Star Trek fans have an overinflated ego of just how smart they are simply because they watch a show associated with nerdom that uses scientific sounding phrases that when you actually look at their meaning it comes out as rediculous babble.Batman wrote:Valen this i getting boring to me and I've only been involved in the vs debate here and for less than five years.
Is it just that there's so MANY of them or are Trek fans really that stupid generally?
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Oh, but the Feds closed the worm hole, so only a few dozen Imperial ships will need to be destroyed; maybe a hundred tops.EnterpriseSovereign wrote:I told the guy that even if it worked, because the Empire outnumbers the Federation a hundred to one, guess who'll run out of ships first?Stark wrote:I hear the Dominion could take over the Federation with it's wormhole fleet, and this proves that the Empire couldn't! The Feds used all those nerdwank tactics against the Dominion as well, which proves they work.
I love the 'Constitution packed with bombs = defeat ISD' thing, though. How's it going to get anywhere fucking near one? At worst, after the first loss they'll just start jumping away and back again.
Someone please explain the basics of nuclear explosions to Spock. He just keeps making excuse after excuse after excuse to ignore the blatent problems with his 'Skin of Evil' gigaton yield torp.
No crater, fireball lasting minutes? Simple. Its all covered by the "light scattering" atmosphere of the planet. No ejecta? The little flash we see is clearly moving beyond escape velocity so it MUST be ejecta, even though we see NONE of it clear the planet.
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This idiot claims to have a solid understanding of Star Wars technology, but he's never heard of CGT arrays.Ok you guys are missing the main problem here. Even with all the advantages that the Empire could possibly have. The Defiant alone could completely shatter any hope that the Empire would have.
All the Federation would have to do is sneak a cloaked Defiant past the Imperial ships, launch a quantum torpedo into the mouth of the wormhol and collapse it using the blast.
More importantly, who's to say that this wormhole is the exact same as the one the Defiant collapsed? Even more importantly, if the wormhole is located any distance from Fed space, its going to take them weeks, months, or years to get the Defiant there, and by that time the war is over. And even then, the Imperial shps could simply sit on the far side of the galaxy, hyperdrive over to Federation territory at will, and hit their facilities and planets without fear of repercussion.
JMSpock has no grasp of basic military strategy whatsoever.
Too bad that with hyperdrive the Imperial fleet that magically gets cut off can simply sit a galaxy away and jump in to Fed space, hit them, and retreat with impunity, rendering this kamikaze strategy useless.Then the Empire is totally cut off from the Federation. After that target every ISD, SSD, or other major warship with a Constitution class ship loaded with Antimatter explosives....and you have one big mass of wrecked Imperial ships. They Empire would never have a chance in hell against that.
Besides, how exactly are exploding ships with bombs with yields in the megaton range even going to hurt ships which are designed to eat teraton barrages and smile?
The logistics prevented them from pulling it off because of the limited nature of their propulsion, something which will not hurt the Empire in any way. They needed the wormhole, and controlling it was a vital strategic objective to winning the war; an Imperial fleet in their galaxy needs no wormhole and can hit and run without any trouble at all.Its just like the Dominion, if they could have successfully launched a massive assault with their full fleet, they would have decimated the Federation and penetrated at least as deeply as Earth before any kind of resistance could have been mounted. But the logistics prevented this.
Even if the theoretical wormhole on the Trek galaxy side was collapsed, Imperial garrison fleets would still be able to kill and destroy with no trouble at all, and would have little difficulty getting assistance from local AQ or other powers, either through normal or gunboat diplomacy.
JMSpock does not seem to understand that hyperdrive is the single most pwoerful weapon the Empire can bring to bear; forget insane firepower or industrial capability, their FTL manueverability is far beyond anything the Federation can dream of acheiving and gives them the mobility they need to hit when and where they want to.
Just because transphasic torps are dangerous against the Borg does not mean that they are dangerous against a much more competent, better armed, and better-protected enemy like the Empire.Not only that, a single weapon could totally decimate the Imperial Fleet, build a couple ships loaded with a few thousand transphasic torpedos, and the Empire goes bye bye.
Besides, the Empire's massive speed advantage gives them the ability to hit any torpedo manufacturing facilities and shipyards with impunity, meaning that the capacity to construct transphasic torpedoes and load ships with them is irrelevant. And more importantly, the Empire's speed advantage means they would have no problem simply avoiding such Federation ships if they were a threat.
X-COM: Defending Earth by blasting the shit out of it.
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Haven't you been following things over there? According to the trekkies, the Skin of Evil torp was easily a gigaton-level banger. Some DS9 facility showed teraton level energy as a "conservative" estimate.Peptuck wrote:Besides, how exactly are exploding ships with bombs with yields in the megaton range even going to hurt ships which are designed to eat teraton barrages and smile?
Spock insists they can easily make one million c but fuel limits them doing so over a long period of time, hence Voyager's taking years to get home.The logistics prevented them from pulling it off because of the limited nature of their propulsion, something which will not hurt the Empire in any way. They needed the wormhole, and controlling it was a vital strategic objective to winning the war; an Imperial fleet in their galaxy needs no wormhole and can hit and run without any trouble at all.
He falls in with the darkstar retards thinking the trip to Endor in ROTJ lasted over a day.JMSpock does not seem to understand that hyperdrive is the single most pwoerful weapon the Empire can bring to bear; forget insane firepower or industrial capability, their FTL manueverability is far beyond anything the Federation can dream of acheiving and gives them the mobility they need to hit when and where they want to.
Oh, but it MUST have been through sheer energy output, because, because, oh look, a three-headed monkey!!!Just because transphasic torps are dangerous against the Borg does not mean that they are dangerous against a much more competent, better armed, and better-protected enemy like the Empire.
</sarcasm>
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It's typical - discount a mountain of evidence showing far, far lower firepower, use a few outliers (that aren't even really outliers...) to justify insane levels of firepower, never seen on the show even when they would be sensible to use.Darth Servo wrote: Haven't you been following things over there? According to the trekkies, the Skin of Evil torp was easily a gigaton-level banger. Some DS9 facility showed teraton level energy as a "conservative" estimate.
Has he explained why it matters? They still take 80 years to cross the galaxy, while the Empire needs mere hours or days, depending on the route. It's like saying that, yeah, infantry really could cover as much ground as cavalry in a day, but endurance limits their ability to do so. In strategic terms, it means that infantry does not move as fast as cavalry. It doesn't matter why.Darth Servo wrote:Spock insists they can easily make one million c but fuel limits them doing so over a long period of time, hence Voyager's taking years to get home.
Besides, he's got no fucking proof for this assertion anyway.
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All trektard battle plans assume the enemy ship will just sit there taking whatever punishment the trekkies see fit to inflict upon it.Stark wrote:I love the 'Constitution packed with bombs = defeat ISD' thing, though. How's it going to get anywhere fucking near one? At worst, after the first loss they'll just start jumping away and back again.
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
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"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
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And again, they utterly fail at strategy.Darth Servo wrote: All trektard battle plans assume the enemy ship will just sit there taking whatever punishment the trekkies see fit to inflict upon it.
Where, pray tell, are they going to refit those constitutions with massive anti-matter bombs, if their shipyard infrastructure gets devastated in opening hours of the conflict?
Remember - the Empire can strike wherever it wants to. They can literally take out Earth at a whim, striking from the far reaches of the galaxy, and there's nothing the Federation can do about it. It would be like the Romans trying to defend against the US Army - Rome would be taken out in the first minutes. Any vs debator should hammer this point relentlessly, because a mobility gap of this size means victory, even if your ships are no better than the Federation's.
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But you're forgetting once again that according to the Trektards, it takes all day for SW ships to travel just over a parsec.
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Which is retarded, of course. I've never seen an idiot trekkie try to explain how rebel pilots were combat effective after an entire day of being stuck inside their cockpits.Darth Servo wrote:But you're forgetting once again that according to the Trektards, it takes all day for SW ships to travel just over a parsec.
If they had to wait that long before entering combat, they would've been fucking murdered by fresh Imperial pilots.
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The "Rebel fleet took days to get to Endor" argument is easily the biggest indicator of collective mental illness in the history of the vs debate. You don't even need to bother to rebut it. It's so transparently insane and flies in the face of what anyone can see with their own two eyes as to be equivalent to committing debate suicide.
Don't even worry about Rebel pilots being stuck in their cockpits for that long. Ask yourself how much Luke's legs would've been hurt standing in front of Palpatine for that long (and my, doesn't he look well rested!), or why anyone would be such a retard as to watch RotJ and believe it took over a day for the Imperials to lead the Rebel squad into the bunker clearing.
Don't even worry about Rebel pilots being stuck in their cockpits for that long. Ask yourself how much Luke's legs would've been hurt standing in front of Palpatine for that long (and my, doesn't he look well rested!), or why anyone would be such a retard as to watch RotJ and believe it took over a day for the Imperials to lead the Rebel squad into the bunker clearing.
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Oh, Spock-tard has a response for that one two, "you don't know Luke was with the Emperor the whole time!!! There could have been multiple visits to the throne room!!!"Vympel wrote:Ask yourself how much Luke's legs would've been hurt standing in front of Palpatine for that long (and my, doesn't he look well rested!),
How nice of Palpatine to give Luke a break every once in a while.
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[quoteAll the Federation would have to do is sneak a cloaked Defiant past the Imperial ships, launch a quantum torpedo into the mouth of the wormhol and collapse it using the blast.[/quote]
Uh... The only Defiant-class ship with a cloacking device was the prototype, for gentle concession by Romulan Star Empire, and that ship was destroyed. Someone told this to Spock?
Uh... The only Defiant-class ship with a cloacking device was the prototype, for gentle concession by Romulan Star Empire, and that ship was destroyed. Someone told this to Spock?
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Funny how that went by entirely without comment in any of the canon, whatsoever. I suppose he expects one to prove that such absurdity didn't happen.Darth Servo wrote: Oh, Spock-tard has a response for that one two, "you don't know Luke was with the Emperor the whole time!!! There could have been multiple visits to the throne room!!!"
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You're talking about someone who runs a board where they delude themselves into thinking the Federation can put phase cloaks on their ships en masse resulting in Trek defeating the Culture.lord Martiya wrote:Uh... The only Defiant-class ship with a cloacking device was the prototype, for gentle concession by Romulan Star Empire, and that ship was destroyed. Someone told this to Spock?All the Federation would have to do is sneak a cloaked Defiant past the Imperial ships, launch a quantum torpedo into the mouth of the wormhol and collapse it using the blast.
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"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
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"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
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See above about how much he squirms over the problems with his gigaton Skin of Evil numbers.Vympel wrote:Funny how that went by entirely without comment in any of the canon, whatsoever. I suppose he expects one to prove that such absurdity didn't happen.Darth Servo wrote: Oh, Spock-tard has a response for that one two, "you don't know Luke was with the Emperor the whole time!!! There could have been multiple visits to the throne room!!!"
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
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"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com
"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
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Yes, I know that they are stupid. But I don't understand exactly the meaning of 'Trek defeating the Culture' (unless you are saying that they say 'Federation don't use money, so it have infinite industrial capability').Darth Servo wrote:You're talking about someone who runs a board where they delude themselves into thinking the Federation can put phase cloaks on their ships en masse resulting in Trek defeating the Culture.lord Martiya wrote:Uh... The only Defiant-class ship with a cloacking device was the prototype, for gentle concession by Romulan Star Empire, and that ship was destroyed. Someone told this to Spock?All the Federation would have to do is sneak a cloaked Defiant past the Imperial ships, launch a quantum torpedo into the mouth of the wormhol and collapse it using the blast.
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Apperently in the mind of a trektard, you don't need to worry about your planetary infrastructure when they have ships that [they believe] can't be attacked.lord Martiya wrote:Yes, I know that they are stupid. But I don't understand exactly the meaning of 'Trek defeating the Culture' (unless you are saying that they say 'Federation don't use money, so it have infinite industrial capability').
Really, its once again the trekkie delusion that space combat will involve two ships duking it out in deep space having nothing what-so-ever to defend.
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
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"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
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"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
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And those never ending buzzword attacks...Darth Servo wrote: Really, its once again the trekkie delusion that space combat will involve two ships duking it out in deep space having nothing what-so-ever to defend.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: there is no difference between an idiot Trekkie fanboy, a WWII Wehrmacht fanboy and an idiot libertarian. Capability, strategy, yields, costs and time seem to be foreign concepts to all of them. Most capabilities they ascribe to their pet theory are completely arbitrary, and many presume some contrived way of doing things. It would be an interesting excercise to see a Trektard do even the simplest strategic analysis for a conflict like that, and to look for capabilities he invented out of thin air that are supposed to be war-winning.