Project: "EU-fic"

[Ender]

Just to point out, I'm not saying that starfighters can't be used to support in atmosphere, just not the way I'm sure he's thinking if he's talking about aerodynamics. The kind of light air support close to light infantry (I imagine he's thinking TESB esque) is to be handled by speeders and the like.

I presume you mean in the EUAU. In which case it poses 2 questions:
1) How do you get the speeders from ship to atmosphere (remember the difficulty fitting AT-AT barges in the ISD, now you need to wedge something else in there)

2) Why the fuck bother building bombers?

Starfighters burning drives and throwing around their firepower is bad for everyone's day if its only that level of engagement.

Yes, if they are making use of their primary drives. But light repulsors match or exceed speeder performance and allow deployment from space. It is a problem you guys will have to work out.

Secondly, aerodynamics matter, but that doesn't mean the TIE is useless. I'm aware that there are greater issues, but I was generalizing. I think it was clear that he thought TIEs are shitty because Stackpole says so, and they can't fight in atmospheres like Stackpole says fighters should and how he shows it (weak sauce, unrealistic). Plus, why get into details when you'll appear anyway?

You got lucky this time, I'm in the middle of moving

[Galvatron]

I say fuck the EU.

Can I sig that?

[Czechmate]

Just to point out, I'm not saying that starfighters can't be used to support in atmosphere, just not the way I'm sure he's thinking if he's talking about aerodynamics. The kind of light air support close to light infantry (I imagine he's thinking TESB esque) is to be handled by speeders and the like. Starfighters burning drives and throwing around their firepower is bad for everyone's day if its only that level of engagement. Secondly, aerodynamics matter, but that doesn't mean the TIE is useless. I'm aware that there are greater issues, but I was generalizing. I think it was clear that he thought TIEs are shitty because Stackpole says so, and they can't fight in atmospheres like Stackpole says fighters should and how he shows it (weak sauce, unrealistic). Plus, why get into details when you'll appear anyway? The big thing with some of the power output on drives and speed in atmosphere, these things moving risks collateral damage. Stackpole combat is completely without basis. And of course the bog-standard reasons why the TIE isn't its video game counterpart.

Stackpole had nothing to do with it. WRT aerodynamics and air support, actually supporting ground targets had nothing to do with what I was saying; you will need fighters to conduct transatmospheric air/space superiority operations in order to clear a corridor for your landing craft and possibly bombers. Establishing air superiority is an important phase of securing a planet, and if the Empire or Rebellion are relying primarily on TIE Fighters, this may not be quite as easy as you think.

The TIE, a very efficient (probably, anyways, i'll let Ender play with numbers) space fighter, by its' own intended use cannot something designed to be particularly effective in atmosphere. It is an Imperial Navy space fighter and is designed for operations in vacuum, and as such will not likely perform well in atmosphere. As far as I can tell, it was not intended to; its' solar-array wings and its' small, mass-efficient engines are perfect for airless space, but I doubt a TIE Fighter has a particularly robust repulsorlift system. After all, they're just supposed to launch from racks, perform a mission, and then be tractored back into storage racks. No landing gear, no real provision for air combat.

As an aside, do we ever actually see TIE Fighters in an atmosphere in the movies? All I can seem to recall is space patrols and engagements. And various EU things (like the prefabricated Imperial base) make the assumption that TIE Fighters will be particularly efficient as a base's airwing, but if we're outright fucking the EU we may as well work out these little issues.

[Galvatron]

As an aside, do we ever actually see TIE Fighters in an atmosphere in the movies?

Yeah, Bespin's.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Stackpole had nothing to do with it. WRT aerodynamics and air support, actually supporting ground targets had nothing to do with what I was saying; you will need fighters to conduct transatmospheric air/space superiority operations in order to clear a corridor for your landing craft and possibly bombers. Establishing air superiority is an important phase of securing a planet, and if the Empire or Rebellion are relying primarily on TIE Fighters, this may not be quite as easy as you think.

The TIE, a very efficient (probably, anyways, i'll let Ender play with numbers) space fighter, by its' own intended use cannot something designed to be particularly effective in atmosphere.

How does this not apply equally to the X-Wing?

It is an Imperial Navy space fighter and is designed for operations in vacuum,

So are the Rebel fighters.

and as such will not likely perform well in atmosphere.

Like the Rebel fighters?

As far as I can tell, it was not intended to; its' solar-array wings and its' small, mass-efficient engines are perfect for airless space, but I doubt a TIE Fighter has a particularly robust repulsorlift system.

They're not solar panels (they couldn't hope to have the wattage to do anywhere or shoot anything). They're radiator panels. And if they have the drive output to outfly X-Wings, they can go 10s of thousands of km/hour in the atmosphere. The shape of the shield is what matters, and AOTC ICS states shields can be configured to give better drag ratios in air. But as Ender pointed out, even if they were bricks they could still be agile with their drives. And they need shields because ANH shows them dispersing blasterfire and they need to not get incinerated by their own drive wash.

As an aside, do we ever actually see TIE Fighters in an atmosphere in the movies?

Do we see X-Wings and Y-Wings fighting in the atmosphere?

And various EU things (like the prefabricated Imperial base) make the assumption that TIE Fighters will be particularly efficient as a base's airwing, but if we're outright fucking the EU we may as well work out these little issues.

We're fucking the EU where it doesn't make sense. Anyway, what I'm getting at is fighter combat as depicted in the movies is really chancey in the atmosphere due to the yields and drives being thrown around, and likewise duplicating the air support and air combat in the EU. Nuclear weapon-esque energy density is child's play to them.

[Czechmate]

We see X- and Y-wings launching from a surface base for a spaceborne attack operation in Ep. IV, we see Luke's X-wing enter and exit various atmospheres with some manueverability. Most of what were (until now) mostly 'Rebel' fighters are all reasonably transatmospheric designs (in that they are, apparently, equipped for combat maneuvers in space and atmosphere with the correct aerodynamics or sufficient repulsorlift suites required). Possibly because the Rebellion could not afford separate craft for air and space operations?

As a note, the B-wing is a terrible design for atmosphere and I suggest it never be depicted in one in this setting. Wing placement is all wrong for lift. The s-foils would snap clean off, I think.

And no, we do not see atmospheric fighter combat in the original trilogy; we do, however, see a glimpse of it during the Order 66 sequence of Ep. III, in which an ARC-170 fires upon and critically damages Plo Koon's Aethersprite without setting the atmosphere of Cato Neimoidia on fire. This being our only example of fighter combat in atmosphere depicted in the movies, I would presume the precedent set by it is that they can, in fact, fire upon one another without causing extinction-level events.

[Illuminatus Primus]

We see X- and Y-wings launching from a surface base for a spaceborne attack operation in Ep. IV, we see Luke's X-wing enter and exit various atmospheres with some manueverability. Most of what were (until now) mostly 'Rebel' fighters are all reasonably transatmospheric designs (in that they are, apparently, equipped for combat maneuvers in space and atmosphere with the correct aerodynamics or sufficient repulsorlift suites required). Possibly because the Rebellion could not afford separate craft for air and space operations?

As a note, the B-wing is a terrible design for atmosphere and I suggest it never be depicted in one in this setting. Wing placement is all wrong for lift. The s-foils would snap clean off, I think.

Why are you clinging to this idea of lift? Ender just explained how SW drive output in watts will achieve hypersonic flight with literally the aerodynamics of a brick. And I don't see why repulsorlifts couldn't be easily added, given the simple set on the Actis are all in all, smaller than a large TV in two narrow skiis, and don't require anything close to continuous power input. As for the B-Wing, if this craft are manuevering at 1000s of G acceleration, stresses from atmospheric flight are literally meaningless.

And no, we do not see atmospheric fighter combat in the original trilogy; we do, however, see a glimpse of it during the Order 66 sequence of Ep. III, in which an ARC-170 fires upon and critically damages Plo Koon's Aethersprite without setting the atmosphere of Cato Neimoidia on fire. This being our only example of fighter combat in atmosphere depicted in the movies, I would presume the precedent set by it is that they can, in fact, fire upon one another without causing extinction-level events.

We're abandoning the PT, so nothing in it is necessarily authoritative. Even so, that's not realistic. And I never said it would set the atmosphere on fire or cause extinctions. I just think them trading fire will be very violent to the neighboring atmosphere and other scenery. The shock and blast of a nuclear initiation is caused by the atmosphere absorbing the radiation emitted in such a small area. Any comparable amount of heat in the same area, with similar atmospheric composition, pressure, and density will cause the same effects.

[Czechmate]

We're abandoning the PT, so nothing in it is necessarily authoritative. Even so, that's not realistic. And I never said it would set the atmosphere on fire or cause extinctions. I just think them trading fire will be very violent to the neighboring atmosphere and other scenery. The shock and blast of a nuclear initiation is caused by the atmosphere absorbing the radiation emitted in such a small area. Any comparable amount of heat in the same area, with similar atmospheric composition, pressure, and density will cause the same effects.

Tell me something. Are you trying to make an EU storyline that is a functional, accurately-interlinked story, or are you trying to make a detailed, annotated, exhaustive tech manual? I'd suggest you make up your mind now, because the two are mutually exclusive. I was under the impression that we're making a detailed, interconnected storyline. We do not need to haggle over thermodynamics to ensure that tripe like the Glove Of Darth Vader actually makes sense in our new EU.

And I refuse to continue this atmospheric-combat debate with you for several reasons. It's gone on long enough; I concede, if only to get you to stop fixating and talk about something else. Whether or not a TIE or X-wing can realistically fight in an atmosphere is irrelevant. Let's just agree they BOTH can, simplify things, and move on.

EDIT: and if you really do want to continue talking about this, make a non-EUfic thread for it in Pure Star Wars and I'm sure someone will take you up on it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Tell me something. Are you trying to make an EU storyline that is a functional, accurately-interlinked story, or are you trying to make a detailed, annotated, exhaustive tech manual? I'd suggest you make up your mind now, because the two are mutually exclusive. I was under the impression that we're making a detailed, interconnected storyline. We do not need to haggle over thermodynamics to ensure that tripe like the Glove Of Darth Vader actually makes sense in our new EU.

And I refuse to continue this atmospheric-combat debate with you for several reasons. It's gone on long enough; I concede, if only to get you to stop fixating and talk about something else. Whether or not a TIE or X-wing can realistically fight in an atmosphere is irrelevant. Let's just agree they BOTH can, simplify things, and move on.

EDIT: and if you really do want to continue talking about this, make a non-EUfic thread for it in Pure Star Wars and I'm sure someone will take you up on it.

Excuse me. This thread was fashioned into an organizational and recruiting thread, until you walked in and started a tech/combat discussion ex nihilo. Now you want to accuse me of being a meaniehead or something who wants to talk physics instead of writing stories when I've been talking plot, theme, and setting in Fanfics for a week, and you brought yourself in as a "fleet consultant" or something and started a fleet equipment focused discussion in the wrong thread? That means its my fault for having the discussion? I am understanding you correctly?

[Czechmate]

I came in here because I wish to participate in assembling a storyline and assuring the technology used within it is within reason and ration, because I agree with your reasoning for it.

We've been arguing over the same topic for two days, just because I had the gall to question your judgement over the TIE seeing long NR service. I conceded the point. I have been attempting to contribute to both the prequel and post-ROTJ threads as well, but I am quite tired of discussing fightercraft with you when there are better things to be done.

May I suggest we discuss which map we should use for EUfic? there is a decently exhaustive top-down map floating around on the internet somewhere. if I can find it, i'll gladly cut the relevant portions into the sub-clusters you were referring to in the general backstory thread.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I came in here because I wish to participate in assembling a storyline and assuring the technology used within it is within reason and ration, because I agree with your reasoning for it.

So you brought up a tech-fleet focused discussion, and then tried to pull a sanctimonious hissy fit when it didn't go where you wanted to.

We've been arguing over the same topic for two days, just because I had the gall to question your judgement over the TIE seeing long NR service. I conceded the point.

Yeah you conceded it on the square. Clue: when you spend half a post decrying the behavior and attitude of you opponent, and three words "conceding"; that's called being backhanded and insincere.

I disagreed with you because I thought your premises were factually suspect or based on original-EU statements which this project was in part founded to rectify.

You need to take your ego out of the equation, you react very personally and irritatingly to disagreement or if you feel other participants do not feel swayed by your opinions or concepts. No one is under any obligation to compromise with anyone's idea just because they said it. Everyone should at least read it and give it consideration on its merits.

I have been attempting to contribute to both the prequel and post-ROTJ threads as well, but I am quite tired of discussing fightercraft with you when there are better things to be done.

Then don't be a condescending dick about it. Say you agree or just give up. The fact is that many of the contributors have been debating these issues and realism for years or over a decade in some cases. We've worked a lot of stuff out before even starting. Your modus operandi when you're proven wrong seems to be, "well, analyzing things is dumb anyway!" Curious, when the issue in question was brought up by you in the first place. If the movies are supreme and science is valid, why should I not go by the logical outcome of the observed acceleration of starfighters?

May I suggest we discuss which map we should use for EUfic? there is a decently exhaustive top-down map floating around on the internet somewhere. if I can find it, i'll gladly cut the relevant portions into the sub-clusters you were referring to in the general backstory thread.

I don't think we'll use any of the official maps as-is, because they're inconsistent with galactic morphology and full of physical impossibilities like a discrete "Unknown Regions" ensconced on the side of the galaxy. Its a cartoon map. Certainly as a guideline, it'll be useful.

[Ghost Rider]

One thing of note. We do see TIE's dogfight in an atmosphere. We see it in ESB, when Leia and the Falcon are running away from the TIEs.

Take that how you will since both parties are ignoring that Galvatron made the point above.

[Illuminatus Primus]

One thing of note. We do see TIE's dogfight in an atmosphere. We see it in ESB, when Leia and the Falcon are running away from the TIEs.

Take that how you will since both parties are ignoring that Galvatron made the point above.

I don't think they can't fight in the atmosphere. I was arguing that it was silly to say X-Wings can and TIEs can't (especially, as you and Galvy added, we ONLY ever see TIEs fight in the atmosphere).

[Ghost Rider]

One thing of note. We do see TIE's dogfight in an atmosphere. We see it in ESB, when Leia and the Falcon are running away from the TIEs.

Take that how you will since both parties are ignoring that Galvatron made the point above.

I don't think they can't fight in the atmosphere. I was arguing that it was silly to say X-Wings can and TIEs can't (especially, as you and Galvy added, we ONLY ever see TIEs fight in the atmosphere).

Granted, but it would've shut the his whole "We don't see atmospheric combat."...which is an outright lie. So, I don't place anything on you in the regard of ignoring it.

And you are correct, it is silly given that there has never been shown in canon any difference of drive or such not between the two vessels. Nonetheless continue with the ideas. I just brought the notion because that particular irked me.

[Czechmate]

entirely unrelated to the last two days;

Are we including canon engagements of the Clone Wars and simply editing the numbers and dates, or are we completely redoing them? I refer specifically to the big sieges; Saleucami, Felucia, Mygeeto, etc.

Also, are we writing the Yuuzhan Vong off entirely or no? opinion seems to be divided on the matter of NJO.

[Karmic Knight]

Also, are we writing the Yuuzhan Vong off entirely or no? opinion seems to be divided on the matter of NJO.

The NJO is getting completely rewritten, or at least that was the idea at the beginning of the project.

[Czechmate]

Oh, good. A lot of it was tripe anyhow. Especially Zonama Zekot; somehow a seed of the original YV homeworld ended up in our galaxy, is sentient, and has a hyperdrive? AND is willing to cooperate?

Anyway. The Vong as a whole felt less like extragalactic invaders and more like plot-of-the-week villains. Come to think of it, that's how most of the villains in the EU have seemed. Mask-of-the-week villains.

[Illuminatus Primus]

This is not the place for this discussion. To Fanfics, you must go.

[Illuminatus Primus]

PROJECT STAFF:

Editorial Committee:

Darth Raptor
Darth Hoth
Illuminatus Primus

Technical Consultant:

Ender

Conceptual Consultant:

Galvatron

This has been unanamously decided by Hoth, Raptor, and myself. As the project matures, this system will be done away with. But for now, the three of us have editorial control.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Recommended reading (please do so, and if we direct you to it in an argument, please heed our advice or concede the issue):

The New Order in Power (in-house canon) - found on this page

The Domus Publica (Publius' site, and much better a documented and professional source than Wookiee tripe)

The articles "Something Wicked This Way Comes," "Sic Transit Gloria," "Leviathan," "All the Emperor's Men," and "Rattling the Saber."

[Czechmate]

PROJECT STAFF:

Editorial Committee:

Darth Raptor
Darth Hoth
Illuminatus Primus

Technical Consultant:

Ender

Conceptual Consultant:

Galvatron

This has been unanamously decided by Hoth, Raptor, and myself. As the project matures, this system will be done away with. But for now, the three of us have editorial control.

I'm not sure...how am I supposed to interpret this? No sarcasm.

[Darth Raptor]

I'm not sure...how am I supposed to interpret this? No sarcasm.

Certainly not as some personal sleight. It's a listing of the organizational staff, not everyone who's contributing. It's become clear that some semblance of top-down coordination is needed. Also, as the three of us have been heavily involved since before the beginning and will be doing most (all?) of the actual writing, it's only reasonable that we have final say on what gets written. This allows us to avoid retreads of issues that have been discussed for literally years in this forum and elsewhere.

[Czechmate]

Very well. I will continue to put out material and edit it as is mutually seen fit by myself and those who wish to contribute on a given matter.

[Darth Hoth]

PROJECT STAFF:

Editorial Committee:

Darth Raptor
Darth Hoth
Illuminatus Primus

Technical Consultant:

Ender

Conceptual Consultant:

Galvatron

This has been unanamously decided by Hoth, Raptor, and myself. As the project matures, this system will be done away with. But for now, the three of us have editorial control.

I'm not sure...how am I supposed to interpret this? No sarcasm.

That we are, somewhat belatedly, formalising and clarifying the project's structure. This was discussed earlier in this thread - deciding upon a mechanism to ensure cohesion and quality control. The purpose of the editorial committee is to formally establish and maintain overall creative control over EU-Fic and its various subdivisions; it does not mean that those not listed are to be excluded from contributing.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Certainly not, and as Hoth and I stressed before, EUFic is still in its infancy. Once we've began publishing and recruited more in earnest and have a more systematic (DrakaFic esque) approach, we'll probably revise this.