StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Gogolu wrote:But you do that when better plane is one third cheaper.

If I remember from documentary correctly that was main selling point to get plane for 83 million when F22 cost is 137.5 million each.

That means every 4th plane made is free(relatively speaking).

Except the F-35 isn't a better plane.

Valiran wrote:Well there's always the possibility that a group of super/hypersonic aircraft could hit afterburners and just roar by a group of angels, letting the shockwaves do their work for them.

There are a fairly limited number of aircraft in the world that could reasonably expect to do that, and it would be a dangerous tactic if the target happened to be looking in your direction (or was part of a group that was keeping a 360-degree watch). To get an assured kill you'd have to close to dogfighting range coming in more or less head on, and I suspect that angelic trumpeting could hit even a high-supersonic aircraft boring in that way.

Better to stay farther out, I'd think.
________

Stuart wrote:I very much doubt it. The rule of mobilization is that one mass produces what one has. Pretty much all new ideas and projects get back-burnered at best and cancelled outright at worst. Even in WW2 aircraft were hit by this; for example the only new US aircraft program initiated after December 1941 to see production was the P-63 Kingcobra.

That's true to an extent, but a lot of programs already underway that would take years to see completion were driven through at great expense during the mobilization years- with reason. Consider the B-29. In late 1941, the B-29 was about as far from completion and series production than the F-35 was in late 2007. But the Army Air Corps kept funding development, and it paid off. The B-29's superior range and payload made it quite effective in the Pacific theater, and in 1945 it was the only aircraft the Army had that could deliver the new atomic bombs.

In the throes of mobilization, R&D is definitely a secondary priority. But that doesn't mean it stops entirely. To commit a rather atrocious mixed metaphor, a wise military-industrial complex doesn't burn its seed corn to help fuel the milling of today's harvest.
_______

Lonestar wrote:

Gogolu wrote:But you do that when better plane is one third cheaper.

If I remember from documentary correctly that was main selling point to get plane for 83 million when F22 cost is 137.5 million each.

That means every 4th plane made is free(relatively speaking).

Except the F-35 isn't a better plane.

Well, for some purposes it's better. For instance, it can carry more munitions, so it's better suited than the F-22 to replacing a multirole aircraft like the F-16. In a lot of other ways it's worse (no thrust vectoring, no supercruise, and the single engine makes it less reliable, for starters).

You could probably modify an F-22 to do everything the land-based F-35A could do; the real trick would be to adapt the external hardpoints to carry bombs. [No comment on trying to design an F-22 variant suitable for carrier or VTOL operations.] I'm not saying the F-35 should replace the F-22, or that it is somehow objectively superior. Or, in the specific context of the Salvation War, that it's worth mass-producing F-35s when the first ones didn't even roll off the production lines before mobilization started.

But the Raptor and the Lightning II are designed to do different things, and in a really big war the fact that the F-22 isn't designed to do certain things is going to show.

I think it's like the difference between a Spitfire and a Mustang. Assuming we compare aircraft from the same year of the war, the Spitfire was a superior dogfighter... but for quite a few purposes that's going to matter a lot less than the Mustang's exceptional range. So they're both good, but it's very easy to set up the terms of comparison such that you end up calling one better than the other. And that says more about what you came to the table looking for than it does about the aircraft.

why were most of the fighters going in subsonic? I'm assume these were not patrolling fighters just noticing an angel, and were directed onto it. shouldn't they all be on full afterburn trying to intercept the targets ASAP? even the older MiG-21s and F-16s should have been closing at nearly Mach 2.0.

or were they assuming it would just be like the baldricks and didn't expect an unknown opponent to have a few tricks up it's sleeve?

Simon_Jester wrote: I think it's like the difference between a Spitfire and a Mustang. Assuming we compare aircraft from the same year of the war, the Spitfire was a superior dogfighter... but for quite a few purposes that's going to matter a lot less than the Mustang's exceptional range. So they're both good, but it's very easy to set up the terms of comparison such that you end up calling one better than the other. And that says more about what you came to the table looking for than it does about the aircraft.

That's fair enough. There's another piont to remember though; the U.S. is mobilizing for the first time in almost 70 years. There is nobody in the United States Government who had ever mobilized an economy - they have absolutely no experience in the practicalities of it. So, they are going by the book, looking back, seeing what was done in 1940 and repeating it. In fact, I'd say the average member of government knows less about mobilizing the economy than the aveage member of SDN - remember, we've got some pretty slick historians here, Governments are mostly lawyers. So, they'll make a lot of mistakes, some important, some not. They made a big one at Whiteman, they left the bombers out on the parking apron. Saint Curtis would have things to say about that.

When trying to reconstruct what people would do, there's always a deadly tendancy to make them take the right decisions. I fight against that, to the point where in Crusade I consciously made people take the wrong decisions to lead to a tragedy. I try to mix in some mistakes, small, large and utterly catastrophic whoppers. In Armageddon, it didn't matter because the disparity in military power was so great that the humans would have had to work very hard not to win. Here, as you must already be beginning to realize, things are different.

Well, they'd better start combing Hell for some old WW2 home front vets. They wouldn't get everything about modern technology, but they might be able to improve wartime ration schemes or factory output.

Stuart wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote: I think it's like the difference between a Spitfire and a Mustang. Assuming we compare aircraft from the same year of the war, the Spitfire was a superior dogfighter... but for quite a few purposes that's going to matter a lot less than the Mustang's exceptional range. So they're both good, but it's very easy to set up the terms of comparison such that you end up calling one better than the other. And that says more about what you came to the table looking for than it does about the aircraft.

That's fair enough. There's another piont to remember though; the U.S. is mobilizing for the first time in almost 70 years. There is nobody in the United States Government who had ever mobilized an economy - they have absolutely no experience in the practicalities of it. So, they are going by the book, looking back, seeing what was done in 1940 and repeating it. In fact, I'd say the average member of government knows less about mobilizing the economy than the aveage member of SDN - remember, we've got some pretty slick historians here, Governments are mostly lawyers. So, they'll make a lot of mistakes, some important, some not. They made a big one at Whiteman, they left the bombers out on the parking apron. Saint Curtis would have things to say about that.

When trying to reconstruct what people would do, there's always a deadly tendancy to make them take the right decisions. I fight against that, to the point where in Crusade I consciously made people take the wrong decisions to lead to a tragedy. I try to mix in some mistakes, small, large and utterly catastrophic whoppers. In Armageddon, it didn't matter because the disparity in military power was so great that the humans would have had to work very hard not to win. Here, as you must already be beginning to realize, things are different.

Firstly, I'd contend that the Government Lawyers aren't all of the problem ( I'm Govt and occasionally act as a lawyer ) but the policy dweebs are most of the problem.

Secondly, you've made, in my opinion at least, the far greater difficulty in dealing with the threat posed by Heaven very clear.

Yahweh has used storms. We know he did but have no idea how.

Yahweh has used Uriel. We suspect Uriel but have no idea what he is all about.

Yahweh has used BW. We don't really realise that yet.

Yahweh's more major angels use sonic weapons. We have not yet realised that.

Yahweh's people come and go without our awareness of that fact or how, if not portals, they do it.

And there are many in Heaven who know and understand much about Earth and humans, at least compared to Satan's crew.

Already Heaven is striking blows at humanity and we have no idea of how to make a robust and eventually meaningful response, let alone parry the blows at this point.

Simon_Jester wrote:

Pelranius wrote:Well, there is quite a difference between Mach 1.1 and whatever the Raptor and Foxhound can comfortably sustain (aren't the exact numbers classified)? Off the top of my head, I recall something in the range of 1.6 to 1.8 Mach, which is a 50% difference.

True.

The distance scale over which a plane needs supersonic flight for zoom-and-boom attacks against the angels depicted here shouldn't take more than about ten minutes to cover at the speeds involved, I'd think. Calling that a supersonic "dash" may not have been quite accurate, but we're not talking about supersonic flight over intercontinental ranges of the sort that the SR-71, the XB-70, and the Concorde were capable of.

Well there's always the possibility that a group of super/hypersonic aircraft could hit afterburners and just roar by a group of angels and let their shockwaves do the work for them.

JBG wrote:Yahweh's more major angels use sonic weapons. We have not yet realised that.

Actually, the angel we saw 'shout' down planes was a relatively minor angel.

More then likely the technology behind the F-35, or more accurately, 'under the hood', will be kept at full readiness even if the actual fighter itself gets canceled. There -are- some notable improvements over the F-22 from a pilot's standpoint and I'm not talking about the Halo-ish Helmet w/ built-in HUDs. The radar that the USMC & British versions were to get was designed from the get-go as a dual role air/ground setup, where as the F-22's is 90% Air Superiority. It can do both, but its just not as good. Cockpit arrangement is also from what I understand far more pilot friendly/forgiving in that the pilot can actually concentrate on flying/fighting his fighter, rather then having to bounce his eyes from MFD to HUD, to HDD, to HUD, etc in a balancing act. Also while the F-35's stealth profile is, comparatively, weaker then the F-22's, it was designed later, and thus incorporates updated 2nd generational stealth that even the F-22 doesn't have. Due to certain factors it isn't able to use them as effectively as the F-22, but the tech stands for itself. Apply those new methods to say a F-22A or F-22B and you'd get it even better for stealth. Now of course whether or not stealth is effective against angels utilizing sonic weapons is something up for debate(*) but its a possibility. And so on. Or as some put it, the F-22 was designed in the 80s, incorporating lessons learned from all previous designs. The F-35 was designed in the 90s, and incorporates lessons learned from all previous designs, including the F-22. So if you're going to cancel the F-35, you might as well retroactively stick all those improvements (wherever feasibly possible that is) back into the F-22.


(*) - I'm currently going by the idea that Angels are modified human 'stock', just like the Demons were, and all three are descended from some common genetic ancestor. And we know Demons can build up & store an electric charge, so its possible Angels went a different method and worked out a dry/open air version of the electric sense that Sharks have. A kind of biological Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD), or even kind of true biological radar in that it picks up on electrical impulses. Or if its a kind of bio-MAD sensor, it can read electromagnetic waves and not just pick up on purely electrical stimulus in the region around it.

Yeah, for example I'm sure we'll actually, despite how unsatisfactory they are, simply be churning out huge numbers of Littoral Combatant Ships of both classes, as well as the Arleigh Burke class, and the Coastguard's Bertholf-class cutters. Also of course Virginia-class SSNs, and possibly Cyclone-class patrol craft. Lots of copies of the San Antonio and Wasp, too. Fortunately the miserable DDX appears to have been early enough in planning to be cancelled?

Probably not I would say, its been made clear in the last chapter that ships are WAY down the line of industrial projects right now, its all about land and air power for the moment. I *can* see Burkeswarm increasing as its a proven, battle tested and damn awesome design, but LCS and DDX are still really too much in the 'we'll make it work some day' stages, and not set up for mass production.

Back on the last few chapters.

The odd thing is that the Demons and Angels are clearly supposed to be roughly comparable in military power, hence the long term cold war with on-again, off-again raids back and forth which kept the status-quo intact. But the Angels we just saw in the Air look like they are a *heck* of a lot more effective then Harpies, if they are able to fight off the most advanced aircraft in the world like they were, even to the point of intercepting missiles! Even the finest Harpies we see at the start of Armagedon, who ranked as near Grand Duke level IRIC, were little more then target practice for the fighters.

I can't help but think we're missing something...

Chris OFarrell wrote: I can't help but think we're missing something...

I think we're underestimating where in the Hierachy these Angels came. I don't know about you, but I read it as if Michael was bumping off the direct underlings he trusted the least (from the fact that the Angel had Michael's name in his directly, which I think might mean "servant of"), rather than just using mooks. As a result, those Angels would have been really rather high up in the Heavenly chain of command, rather than just being the mass bred harpies who were slaughtered.

The one which was killed in Hell would be a more typical Angel, although still better than the average one, given it was sent on a diplomatic mission.

Chris OFarrell wrote:I can't help but think we're missing something...

The difference between ignorance and knowledge, I think. The angel knows what a deadly threat modern aircraft are, while the demon has no idea. The angel and demon probably have similar firepower, but the angel responds to the threat with alacrity and foresight while the demon assumes that there is no threat. (And it may also be that a sonic weapon is simply more of a threat to an aircraft than a flamethrower.)

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Yeah, for example I'm sure we'll actually, despite how unsatisfactory they are, simply be churning out huge numbers of Littoral Combatant Ships of both classes, as well as the Arleigh Burke class, and the Coastguard's Bertholf-class cutters. Also of course Virginia-class SSNs, and possibly Cyclone-class patrol craft. Lots of copies of the San Antonio and Wasp, too. Fortunately the miserable DDX appears to have been early enough in planning to be cancelled?

More and more I'm inclined to give the LCS a chance if the mission modules work out(as in, we can swap them out in a safe and timely manner), there seems to be a concentration less on the mission module capability and more on the "base" crew and equipment, which I think is an unfair assessment of the LCS capabilities.

DDX hasn't even been laid down yet(I don't even know if the steel has been cut for it) so I doubt we're going to be seeing any DDG-100s.

Stuart wrote:The tank case is perhaps the best, the US churning out M4s rather than switch the lines to a new type.

In John Birmingham's Axis of Time WWII alt-hist, America continues with the Sherman instead of going to a proposed Patton fascimile, due to the sheer numbers of M4s already produced, and the lines already geared up etc. Instead, they use the fore/hindsight of knowledge from the 'future' and start converting to M8 super shermans with high velocity guns, slatted armour, diesel engines, safer fuel cells... And it nearly doesn't happen because of the pride of the contemporary brass who don't want to be told they're wrong by future upstarts.

Stuart, I can't believe I missed this thread for so long.

THANK YOU SO MUCH for giving me my fix back. Loving it so far.

Stuart, great story and all, but I was wondering...why isn't it found in the cleaned up/completed subsection yet?

kingdragon wrote:Stuart, great story and all, but I was wondering...why isn't it found in the cleaned up/completed subsection yet?

It will probably happen in the next week or so, whenever Mike gets around to it.

Surlethe wrote:

Chris OFarrell wrote:I can't help but think we're missing something...

The difference between ignorance and knowledge, I think. The angel knows what a deadly threat modern aircraft are, while the demon has no idea. The angel and demon probably have similar firepower, but the angel responds to the threat with alacrity and foresight while the demon assumes that there is no threat. (And it may also be that a sonic weapon is simply more of a threat to an aircraft than a flamethrower.)

If nothing else, they cannot be seen with the naked eye when fired. The fire-breath is almost certainly slower than sound, as well.


I'm more than a little concerned at how this sonic doom is going to be explained other than "magic".

Marko Dash wrote:why were most of the fighters going in subsonic? I'm assume these were not patrolling fighters just noticing an angel, and were directed onto it. shouldn't they all be on full afterburn trying to intercept the targets ASAP? even the older MiG-21s and F-16s should have been closing at nearly Mach 2.0.

or were they assuming it would just be like the baldricks and didn't expect an unknown opponent to have a few tricks up it's sleeve?

That would be my guess. Possibly they did expect it to have a few tricks up its sleeve, but didn't expect it to pull something functionally equivalent to a radar-controlled autocannon out. These angels weren't actually moving very fast, as I recall, and their trumpeting was undetectable until the attacking planes literally ran into it.
_______

Stuart wrote:That's fair enough. There's another piont to remember though; the U.S. is mobilizing for the first time in almost 70 years. There is nobody in the United States Government who had ever mobilized an economy - they have absolutely no experience in the practicalities of it. So, they are going by the book, looking back, seeing what was done in 1940 and repeating it. In fact, I'd say the average member of government knows less about mobilizing the economy than the aveage member of SDN - remember, we've got some pretty slick historians here, Governments are mostly lawyers. So, they'll make a lot of mistakes, some important, some not.

To be sure, although in the case of a decision like cancelling the F-35 or leaving the B-2 force on the tarmac at Whitman, the lawyers would at the very least be heavily advised by people who run air forces for a living.

I don't think "they should have done X" in the sense of "you should have written them doing X." I think "they should have done X" in the sense of "in-story, they would have been wiser to do X." Since I'm not necessarily right, and since even if I were right the people making the decision in-story aren't perfectly wise, it's probably a good sign that I see places in the story where I feel like saying that.
______

Valiran wrote:Well there's always the possibility that a group of super/hypersonic aircraft could hit afterburners and just roar by a group of angels and let their shockwaves do the work for them.

I wrote: There are a fairly limited number of aircraft in the world that could reasonably expect to do that, and it would be a dangerous tactic if the target happened to be looking in your direction (or was part of a group that was keeping a 360-degree watch). To get an assured kill you'd have to close to dogfighting range coming in more or less head on, and I suspect that angelic trumpeting could hit even a high-supersonic aircraft boring in that way.

Better to stay farther out, I'd think.

______

barricade wrote:More then likely the technology behind the F-35, or more accurately, 'under the hood', will be kept at full readiness even if the actual fighter itself gets canceled.

Seconded.

(*) - I'm currently going by the idea that Angels are modified human 'stock', just like the Demons were, and all three are descended from some common genetic ancestor. And we know Demons can build up & store an electric charge, so its possible Angels went a different method and worked out a dry/open air version of the electric sense that Sharks have. A kind of biological Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD), or even kind of true biological radar in that it picks up on electrical impulses. Or if its a kind of bio-MAD sensor, it can read electromagnetic waves and not just pick up on purely electrical stimulus in the region around it.

Colopatiron heard the fighters coming. It is reasonable to assume that during the day he could have seen the fighters coming from extreme range, around twenty kilometers or more. We have, as yet, no evidence of a biological electromagnetic sensor (except the Mark II Eyeball, of course).
_______

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Fortunately the miserable DDX appears to have been early enough in planning to be cancelled?

Most likely, seeing as how the Obama administration came close to cancelling that in (relative) peacetime in real life.

What's so miserable about them again?
_______

EarthScorpion wrote:I think we're underestimating where in the Hierachy these Angels came. I don't know about you, but I read it as if Michael was bumping off the direct underlings he trusted the least (from the fact that the Angel had Michael's name in his directly, which I think might mean "servant of"), rather than just using mooks. As a result, those Angels would have been really rather high up in the Heavenly chain of command, rather than just being the mass bred harpies who were slaughtered.

That sounds plausible. "Michael Lan" would then translate as ""Who-is-like-God?", servant of"
[note the nested quotes]

The name just ends "Lan" because in the angelic culture you do not speak the name of God lightly.

In which case the angel tipping out the Bowl of Wrath over Khabarovsk is "(whatever Colopatiron means), servant of Michael." However, that doesn't necessarily mean that Colopatiron is an angel of the "second rank" with Michael being "first rank." Hell uses a very hierarchical system, sort of like European feudalism, with everything breaking down into small groups led by one devil who is marginally more powerful than anyone else in the group. Then a small group of those leader-devils is ruled by a single leader-squared-devil (again, marginally stronger than anyone else in the group), a group of which is ruled by a leader-cubed-devil, and so on all the way up.

Because the system is feudal and being strong enough to kill your boss lets you take his job, you wind up with a very pyramidal organization. There are many layers, and the ratio of size between each layer and the one below it is more or less constant.
_____

But Heaven is, if nothing else, somewhat more organized. This may just be because Yahweh is stronger than Satan to the point where no angel would seriously consider trying to oppose the program as he outlines it, but it's still true. So it's possible that the hierarchy in Heaven is relatively flat- being a "servant of Michael" does not mean that you in turn have servants, who in turn have servants, who in turn have servants, and so on down to little flappy cherubs who no one could serve without laughing. Instead, you are just one of the many, many "servants of Michael," which includes everything from not-quite-archangels down to cherubim.

In that case, Michael may appoint leaders to handle specific tasks like "run the diplomatic mission" or "go subject that city over there to three nights of sleep-depriving trumpet fanfares; they have seriously ticked me off." But that doesn't mean that the people Michael picks as leaders are "Thatguy lan Michael" while the angels they lead are called "Thisguy lan Thatguy."

So it's hard to gauge whether Colopatiron is exceptionally powerful among angels or not.
_______

erik_t wrote:I'm more than a little concerned at how this sonic doom is going to be explained other than "magic".

It might go unexplained, but I kind of doubt it. We know that higher-ups among the angels (as well as Satan, if not any of his underlings) have some kind of telekinetic ability (look at all the messengers Satan flattens with a glance, or the encounter between Memnon and Apollyon). The sonic attack may be related to that.

Chris OFarrell wrote:The odd thing is that the Demons and Angels are clearly supposed to be roughly comparable in military power, hence the long term cold war with on-again, off-again raids back and forth which kept the status-quo intact. But the Angels we just saw in the Air look like they are a *heck* of a lot more effective then Harpies, if they are able to fight off the most advanced aircraft in the world like they were, even to the point of intercepting missiles! Even the finest Harpies we see at the start of Armagedon, who ranked as near Grand Duke level IRIC, were little more then target practice for the fighters.

I can't help but think we're missing something...

Or forgetting something. Remember that Satan is a fallen Angel, and he had telekinetic powers in the first story. Satan, like any tyrant, would not permit any opposition in his realm approaching his own power level, so while he had many underlings of varying power levels, he would not allow the presence of any competing angels which even began to approach his own power. Hence, no TK-wielding fallen angels in Hell.

In Heaven, on the other hand, while Yahweh also no doubt jealously guards his own power, there must have been many angels with TK power, if only because Satan himself used to be an angel. Yahweh clearly had underlings of this power level at his disposal, and he continues to have such underlings. But it seems entirely likely to me that only a relatively small number of such angels can exist. Too many, and it would beg the question of how Hell survived its war with Heaven.

If flying angels are a threat to fighter planes, what about SAMs? Or for that matter, what about launching air-to-air missiles at them from longer range? Can they react to a missile the way they react to a fighter plane? It's much smaller and harder to see.

Maybe those Angels chosen to spread the bowls of wrath were like Heaven's version of the Heralds first used by Hell? Those Heralds weren't particularly high ranking or politically influential, but they were giant-sized and hellishly hard to kill.

Or maybe Micheal Lan chose those TK-endowed Angels precisely for that fact. He chose young, eager, impressionable, but also physically gifted space cadets who - in a potential Heavenly Civil War - would side with Yaweh and prove to be powerful allies of Yaweh precisely to get them killed and to deny Yaweh his up-and-coming star Angel-cadets.

MoD Main Building, Whitehall, London.

“Well, gentlemen the Prime Minister wants to know how it happened.” Admiral Lord West said as he looked out of the window at the teeming rain battering London. The weather forecast had been for bright sunshine. So the Met Office had gotten it wrong, again, hardly new experience for someone in Britain. This time though, he expected the Met Office had received some supernatural assistance in getting its forecasts wrong.

“The Preston tornado, Minister?” The Permanent Secretary wondered. “Well it was rather more powerful than we would normally expect for this country and the damage to BAE Preston and Warton aerodrome was quite extensive. The Met Office is still looking into…”

“Not the Preston tornado, we have a good idea what caused it.” West replied. “Something much more important than that, the Prime Minister would like to know how the French got command of an army group while we have ended up as, well, an appendage of the American army group. “We now have a large army, experienced commanders and staff, and a lot of combat experience. Arguably more than the French, certainly. So how did this happen?”

“We may have a large army, Minister by our standards.” Field Marshal Dannattt, the Chief of the General Staff, replied. " But its still small in comparison with the whole Human Expeditionary Army. Even then, we don’t have enough equipment, uniforms, or weapons to equip even half of them, and we are only just keeping up with the requirements of our troops in Hell as it is.”

“Indeed, our defence factories are working flat out and yet are only just meeting requirements.” Air Chief Marshal Stirrup commented. “It will be a while before we can put many more troops in the field than we have now; most of our National Servicemen are still at home waiting to be told to report to training centers.

“If we were overstretched before in Iraq and Afghanistan then we’ve gone beyond overstretch.”

Admiral West looked back at the defence chiefs. “It still doesn’t answer the question. We’ve spent the last quarter century commanding NATO ground forces; first the Northern Army Group then the Allied Rapid Reaction Corps; and we’re not getting to use that experience. The Cabinet is not pleased.”

“With respect, Minister, the Cabinet should look beyond appearances and examine what the situation really is on the ground." Dannatt pulled a file from his briefcase and opened it up. "If we look at the Human Expeditionary Army, it is very much a work-in-progress. It's important to remember that armored units, tank and mechanized infantry, are to be considered front-line in this war. Everybody keeps the leg infantry at home for self-defense. Second Army Group (Russian) is complete although many of its units are below strength. No surprises there, the Russians always had a big army and its fully mechanized. Third Army Group (Chinese) is at roughly half strength with 65 divisions out of its planned 125. The Chinese have attached extra leg infantry divisions to their armored units to make up the numbers but we all know that in this war, its armor that counts. In both Russia and China's case, they have huge stocks of war material in storage. The Russians are pulling it out fast and they have come up with some interesting examples I can tell you. Did you know one of their divisions is getting a mix of T-34s and KV-1s?

"That brings us to First Army Group (U.S.). The Americans are cloning divisions as fast as they can equip them – and diluting their force very quickly in the process. Each of their new divisions has a cadre of veterans but that's about it, the rest of the formations consists of raw recruits, including an increasing number of conscripts. In the year since the war started, they've doubled the number of divisions they have available and then doubled it again. They now have 64 divisions in their Army Group. Again, they were able to do that because they had the reserves of equipment stockpiled. To that number, we're adding five British divisions, two Australian, three Canadian and one Commonwealth division, 11 divisions bringing the total to 75. In other words, of the five armies planned for First Army Group, three actually exist. One of those is half-Commonwealth. However, there's more to it than that. Those American divisions are big, they're about twice the size of the Russian and Chinese units. There are reasons for that including structural requirements but the numbers remain.

"Those three Army Groups are the backbone of the Human Expeditionary Army. They are the important ones, the ones that actually matter. Now, the organization of those Army Groups was done to ease command and control. That was the critical constraint and its what put us in First Army Group. The Big Three can be defined by language, First is Anglophone, Second is Russophone, Third is Sinophone.

"Now we look at Fourth Army Group (Eastern). India dominates it of course, they've thrown 20 armored divisions into the pot. Bangladesh has added one, a creditable effort for them if I might say so, Pakistan added five, Sri Lanka one, Indonesia one, Japan nine, South Korea five. The Koreans would like to add more but with North Korea sitting on the fence, they have their own defense to think about. Malaysia's sent one, the Philippines one, Singapore three and Thailand five. Vietnam rounds off the pot with six divisions. Add that up and we can see they have 58 divisions and that's going to be about it. Those countries are straining hard to support what they have, any further force increments in the near future are really unlikely. Then they have the Middle Eastern component, that's got Algeria with one division, Egypt with five, Iran with four, Iraq with one, Israel with nine, Jordan with two, Kuwait one, Morocco one, Saudi Arabia with one and Syria with seven. Another 32 divisions that have even less in common with the rest of the group. The Israelies don’t even listen to the Indians, they just wander off and do what they want. Total, 90 divisions and again, that's more or less it. The big contribution from the Middle East has been the stockpiles of equipment. We got more than 2,000 tanks from Libya and they only have a 25,000 man Army. They may pull some additional forces in from Africa and so on but they won’t make much difference. They have no common language, no integrated command systems no commonality in logistics. They have no common doctrine but at least India has experience of commanding forces of this size in the field.

"That brings us to Fifth Army Group (Europe). We have much the same situation here. Certainly the French politicked their way into command and they put three armored divisions into the field. The Germans added five, the Czechs one, the Danes one and that took a heroic effort from them, Greece four, Italy five, Netherlands one, Norway one, Poland four, Romania one, Spain four, Turkey ten. Sweden's added two divisions, Switzerland one, the Ukraine three. Added up that makes 46 divisions, again with no common language, logistics or operational doctrine. They are mobilizing their reserves but they don’t have the huge stockpiles of equipment that the Americans, Russians, Chinese and Middle East have. So, they're mobilization work is producing mostly leg infantry for guarding the home front.

"In short, Fourth Army Group is marginally useful and Fifth is a shambles. It is reasonably obvious to us that General Petraeus knows this as well as we do. He knows that Fifth composes troops that, in most cases, are very good on the small unit level, up to brigade or division level, but they have no real capability of operating beyond that. If push comes to shove, he'll break Fifth up and use the units as spot reinforcements, especially for First Army Group. The French "commander" will be left with an Army group headquarters but no troops to command.

"Now contrast that with our situation, we are in the primary striking group of the Human Expeditionary Army, we have the ear of the commander of that group and we are trusted, well-regarded allies. Our words weigh heavily with them. We are an influential partner in a vital organization, rather than the head of an ineffectual one. Put another way, we may have an inferior position on paper but in terms of actual power and influence we outweigh the French many times over."

West harrumphed, knowing he would have to pass this information onto his Cabinet colleagues. Both the Prime Minister and his deputy were very keen on the idea of a British led army group; in time Britain would probably have one but not yet. The Human Expeditionary Army, even in its present incomplete form, was just too large.

“How about this proposal to suspend construction of the Queen Elizabeth class for the duration of the war? Surely we need these ships more than ever?” West wondered.

“They’ll never be finished on time to use in this war, Minister.” Air Chief Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy, the Chief of the Air Staff, argued. “Since the Americans have cancelled the F-35 we don’t have a fighter to fly off them, apart maybe from Harriers. I would have thought that the navy would want to concentrate on building cheap, easy to build warships that they can use now.”

West could see Admiral of the Fleet Sir Jonathon Band, First Sea Lord and Chief of the Naval Staff turning a shade of puce. It was no secret that Band and Torpy had disagreements over the CVF project.

“Just as you are procuring cheap aircraft like the Typhoon, Tornado and Nimrod.” Band commented. “I see you’re also holding on to many of those expensive museum pieces.”

“There’s a big difference, Admiral, between procuring aircraft and two massive warships. By the time a few pieces of steel are cut for these ships I will have dozens of new aircraft in service.” Torpy countered. “Those ‘museum pieces’ you refer to, the Buccaneers, TSR.2s, Jaguars, Vulcans and Canberras are very useful platforms until something better comes along.”

“You’ve wanted to kill CVF from day one.” Band said angrily. “I never thought a war with Heaven and Hell would give you the chance.”

Admiral West held up his hand. “Gentlemen, that’s enough. There is a historical precedent for this decision. In 1939, the Royal Navy had to cancel the Lion class battleships. They were excellent ships, greatly needed and undoubtedly valuable additions to the fleet. The problem was, they wouldn’t be ready until after the war was over and they used resources that were needed for much more urgently-required forces. So, they were suspended, the materials assembled for them were used for other programs and the labor they would have absorbed diverted elsewhere. Today, we face the same problem with CV(F), and I must tell you the answer is the same. We cannot afford those ships, they must be suspended to allow more important programs to be pushed through. I am sorry, but that decision is final. In their place, we will be building additional amphibious warfare ships and a war-emergency version of the Type 45 to escort them.

"We also need to look at something to replace the F-35 in the role of JCA. That is a problem in its own right, frankly I see little chance of getting more aircraft from the Americans, they need every aircraft they can build."

“Looks like Hornets all round then, Minister.” Air Chief Marshal Stirrup said.

"If we can get them, a big if. One thing that is potentially good news. The Chinese have offered to reverse-engineer the TSR-2 using experience they gained in pirating the Su-27 design. They claim they can get a prototype flying in 18 months and deliveries starting in 30. The deal is, they'll give us the first 100 aircraft off the production line in exchange for the engines and one of the two White Ghosts to act as a pattern aircraft. We can't just keep one in service so the other TSR-2 will go back to a museum, only this time with an honorable war record to her credit.

"Can the Chinese do it?" Stirrup was genuinely curious

"They got their copy of the Su-27 out fast, the Russians are hopping mad about it. So yes, I think our Chinese friends can pull it off."

Band looked at Torpy with barely-hidden loathing. Watching them, West couldn't help reflect that it was a rare event that Her Majesty's Government was on better terms with the Chinese than with its own Navy.

Throne Room, The Ultimate Temple, Eternal City, Heaven

Michael-Lan once more entered the Holiest of Holies and his eyes adjusted to the dim glow that contrasted so strongly with the clear, white light that saturated Heaven. Even after his millennia of experience, the sight of the great white throne, with its flashing lightning and pealing thunder surrounding the One Above All Others, never failed to awe him. Before the throne were the seven great, gold lamps, burning their ceaseless incense so that the clouds of scented smoke hung thick and hazy, the smell clinging to everything. There had been a time when Michael loved this room but that was before humans had opened his eyes to what it really represented. As a showman, he admired it, as a General who valued efficient and effective administration above all else, it filled him with frustration at the wasted effort. It hadn’t always been like this, uncounted millennia before when the Great Celestial War had been fought, there hadn’t been this stress of unqualified adoration and infinite submission. 'All Power Corrupts and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.' The human motto ran through Michael-Lan's mind and its implications disturbed him.

At the four corners of the room flew four Seraphs, creatures with huge heads and six wings rooted in their atrophied bodies. They appeared to be nothing other than head and wings, their distorted physique making them of little use other than chanting their ceaseless cry: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.” The refrain was echoed by the twenty-four members of the Yahweh's Private Choir. They were ancient even by the angels' standards, and were constantly on their faces before the throne, murmuring, “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being." Michael-Lan gazed at them sympathetically, they had spent their lives yearning for an eternity in Paradise, now they had it, they spent their time yearning for another death. They had wasted their time on Earth, building up their virtues for their afterlife and now they knew the full extent of the way they had squandered their time. That might not be as crude and agonizing a torture as the ones Satan had dreamed up but it was one all the same.

Michael-Lan had once had a choir just like this one. A century ago he had released them from their eternal chanting and now they sang in his nightclub, choosing their own program and relishing the freedom to do so. They were loyal servants, trustworthy as only those released from a nightmare could be.

Michael stopped in the middle of the lamps and knelt down on both knees, prostrating himself and pressing his flawless lips to the cold, dark jade floor. As though sensing intentions, the four Seraphim quieted, and the twenty-four elders' murmurs died to whispers. From the white throne, the voice of Yahweh thundered: “Michael, my good general, what news do you bring me?”

"Oh nameless one, Lord and God of all, I prostrate myself to your presence. The First Bowl of Wrath is poured, even now the humans who bear the Mark of the Beast sicken and die from its poison. Not less than twenty of my highest servants, ones in whom I espoused a special interest, gave their lives so that your Almighty Will should be fulfilled. They went to their end, singing thy praises and filled with ecstasy at their privilege."

They were not filled with ecstasy, thought Michael quietly, he'd made sure that the doomed group had been well isolated from his night club and the growing web of influence it gave him. His stocks of ecstasy were limited and he made sure it was distributed carefully. And, they didn't die singing, they almost certainly died screaming because that was what human weapons did to their victims.

Michael-Lan sneaked a look at Yahweh, poised on his great throne amid the clouds of burning incense. His mind flitted to the possibility of adding some really good grass to the incense but it veered away from the prospect. The risks were too high, the rewards too low. Yahweh had a dreamy expression on his face, contemplating the sacrifice of those who had laid down their lives so that his wishes could be fulfilled. Michael-Lan decided that he needed building up a little before the blow was struck

"And the rest of the humans?"

"They suffer as the elements themselves turn against them. The very winds and waters rage in anger at their defiance of your divine will. Their dead number in the tens of thousands and their weeping drowns out the words of their leaders."

That did it, Yahweh was transported with delight at the thought of the humans who had defied him being punished. He edged forward on his throne. "And Uriel, does Uriel bring despair into their hearts."

"Ah yes, Uriel." Now this was going to be tricky. Very easy to overdo this. Michael warned himself.

There was a long hesitation. "He has obeyed my wishes?" There was an ominous roll in the thunder and the lightning flickered. Still white Michael-Lan thought. We'll have to change that.

"Would Uriel-Lan, thy sword and spear, do any less? He has killed humans. Some, anyway."

There was suspicion and doubt in the thunder that rolled around the hall and Michael noted the Seraphim were unobtrusively drifting away. It helped to have six wings, it made motion so much less obvious. "But the human cities are laid waste? Their inhabitants and all that live therein dead, their very souls snuffed from existence?"

Now that was a good question. Michael rolled the question around in his mind. He doubted Uriel actually snuffed out souls, in his mind it was more probable he simply sent them somewhere else. There were, after all, enough places to send them to. "The cities, well, yes. I suppose so. Depends how we define cities I suppose."

"What do you mean Michael-Lan?" The clouds were gathering ominously, the lightning flickering more strongly as the clouds of incense roiled and flowed.

"Human cities have changed a lot, Oh nameless one, Lord and God of all. They're quite a bit bigger now but Uriel doesn’t seem to have realized that. He stays in the areas where the settlements are few in number and poorly inhabited. But Uriel-Lan has done his best in the area he stays. I believe he has extinguished a few hundreds of humans."

That did it. To Michael's delight, multi-colored lightning bolts flashed and ricocheted off the walls, sending showers of pristine diamond flakes spiraling through the air. The Seraphim gave up any hope of discretion and dived for cover. Thunder crashed, its echoes rolling down the wide, straight boulevards that divided The Eternal City into its mathematically-precise blocks, shaking the great sheaths of semi-precious stone that formed the walls of the palaces glittering in the clear white light. The Ishim scurried down the alabaster streets, the more astute getting the message that Michael-Lan was making another war report. A few, secretly in their minds, half-hiding the thought even from themselves, wondered why Yahweh had started this war if the news upset him so much. Elohim and Malachim looked down upon the lowly Ishim but the crashing of thunder persuaded them that there was, perhaps, purpose in the disorder.

"A few hundred? He has achieved nothing!"

" Oh nameless one, Lord and God of all, Uriel-Lan has done well given there are so few to snuff out in the are that he resides. Why he will not go to richer pastures, I do not know." Because if he does, the humans will put a cap in his ass thought Michael, but no need to say that The Michael squeezed himself even flatter to the floor because a large chunk of diamond had splintered off the wall and just missed his head. He risked a look up, Yahweh was glaring across the throne room, furious that his sublime delight had been ruined so abruptly. Michael knew from long experience what he was thinking and the word 'treason figured prominently.

" One Above All Others, he must have good reason. After all, there are none who would dare claim that Uriel-Lan's loyalty is any less than my own. Surely he is the most devoted of thy servants. Perhaps he needs a little encouragement?"

"Then send him a message that it is my divine will that he enter the realms of our greatest enemies." Yahweh hesitated for a second. "Who are they by the way?"

Michael thought for a second. It was an interesting question, one that had many answers depending on the interpretation of the words greatest and enemy. He decided that the best possible translation was 'the ones who stood best chance of killing Uriel-Lan.' It had to be humans, in the world here in Heaven, a direct assassination attempt would probably fail and regardless of the outcome, all his plans would be revealed. Uriel was Yahweh's greatest weapon, one that could be turned on his enemies in the Eternal City just as easily as on anybody else. Uriel was too loyal and too deadly to live. Getting rid of him had to be the humans. "The Americans, Oh nameless one, Lord and God of all. They are thy greatest enemy."

"Then order Uriel to attack their greatest city. Without further delay."

That's a message that will get through as "The boss wants you to take out an American city. No hurry, in your own time. Michael-Lan rose and backed out of the throne room, bumping into an Erelim stone-mason as he did so.

"You had to go and do it didn't you." The Erelim sounded bitter as he surveyed the chipped and battered walls. "I'd just got the place fixed up after your last report."

Michael looked sympathetically at him and slipped him a small package of cocaine. Then he slapped the mason on the back. "Look on it as job security," he said comfortingly as he went on his way to meet with Uriel.

First post, and Mikey is a sneaky bastard.